Is god bound by the laws of the universe?

[jammindude]

Untruth does not exist within him.  There is no place for untruth to come from.   He cannot give something he simply does NOT have.

... Still not seeing how that's any different from 'He can do whatever He wants.'  I mean, you're saying that the only limit to His own power is His will, right?

Like I said with lying.   It just doesn't exist with him in the first place.  There no place for the lie to come from. 

Saying god can do anything he wants is not a paradox at all.

Well, actually it is.  Or at least it leads to some.  If God can do literally anything, then He could create something utterly impossible to destroy, and then destroy it.

THIS!  ABSOLUTELY THIS!!!

[eric42434224]

Not really, as god is above everything he creates. 

[Jaffa]

Like I said with lying.   It just doesn't exist with him in the first place.  There no place for the lie to come from. 

I'm not just talking about lying.  I'm talking about trying to reconsile two things you've said:

1: "But there is are scriptures that state that God cannot do *ANYTHING* in the absolute sense."
2: "However, his power to accomplish his will has no limits"

These two points seem, to me, to contradict each other. But you made them in the exact same post, so I am assuming I am misinterpreting one of them.  So I ask you:  What do you actually mean, in plain terms, when you say that His power to accomplish His will has no limits?  Because for me, the only logical interpretation of that is that He can do anything He wants (anything that His will requires) but nothing that He doesn't want. 

Not really, as god is above everything he creates. 

If God can do literally anything, then God can create something that He Himself cannot destroy.  Otherwise you're limiting His power of creation.  But then He can also destroy it.  Otherwise you're limiting His power of destruction. 

[jammindude]

Not really, as god is above everything he creates.

Being above something doesn't automatically equate to being capable of violating its purpose. 

I do believe he is above all....because he is the source.   He made things in a such a way that they can only be used in that way.   As the source of the law, and the source of infinite knowledge of that law, he is always above the creation.

The law is a thing created...he is the creator...   So he is always above the creation.   

But he created laws...laws that cannot be broken.  They are *by design* incapable of being broken.   Since he is the designer...he is above this. 

An architect cannot use a 30-story high rise to play the piano.   That doesn't mean his design is flawed...it doesn't mean the building isn't well made...it doesn't mean that he is beneath his creation....

[jammindude]

Like I said with lying.   It just doesn't exist with him in the first place.  There no place for the lie to come from. 

I'm not just talking about lying.  I'm talking about trying to reconsile two things you've said:

1: "But there is are scriptures that state that God cannot do *ANYTHING* in the absolute sense."
2: "However, his power to accomplish his will has no limits"

These two points seem, to me, to contradict each other. But you made them in the exact same post, so I am assuming I am misinterpreting one of them.  So I ask you:  What do you actually mean, in plain terms, when you say that His power to accomplish His will has no limits?  Because for me, the only logical interpretation of that is that He can do anything He wants (anything that His will requires) but nothing that He doesn't want. 

It would probably be more accurate terminology to say that his source of power in inexhaustible.   There is no limit to the power he can draw from.  He is a limitless energy source.   He does not get tired out.   

[Adami]

There are quite a few examples of your god breaking the laws of physics in the bible.

1. Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.
2. Almost every plague in Egypt.
3. The parting of the red sea.
4. Aaron's rod turning into a serpent.


etc etc.

[Jaffa]

It would probably be more accurate terminology to say that his source of power in inexhaustible.   There is no limit to the power he can draw from.  He is a limitless energy source.   He does not get tired out.

Ah, I see.  If that's all you were trying to say, fair enough, ignore me. 

[theseoafs]

Going with Adami on this one.  Your point of view on this issue doesn't make all that much sense, JD.

[jammindude]

There are quite a few examples of your god breaking the laws of physics in the bible.

1. Lots wife turning into a pillar of salt.
2. Almost every plague in Egypt.
3. The parting of the red sea.
4. Aaron's rod turning into a serpent.


etc etc.

Just because we don't understand how he did something doesn't mean it disobeys the laws of physics. 

God created DNA...therefore he is able to re-arrange it in any way he wishes.   He is the source of life, so he is able to bring about life from lifelessness.   All of these things exist in theory....we just don't know how to do them.   That's why he's God.    Infinite source power, infinite knowledge.

God cannot create life without DNA....so he created DNA.   DNA does fall under the physical laws of the universe, and was designed to be used to make the building blocks of life.   

He made man from the dust....but it all falls under the physical laws that he created.   

[Adami]

Manipulating the laws of physics to the extent that it did is considered breaking them.

If having the ability to completely arrange matter at will isn't the laws of physics then I have no idea what is.

[Ħ]

Just dealing with the concept of God, not necessarily thinking of any Scripture, I don't see why God has to be bound by the laws of physics. Why would he be? He might choose to restrict himself to his self-created laws, but I don't see that as a necessary characteristic of God.

The question of whether God is bound by logic is more interesting, IMO.

[jammindude]

Manipulating the laws of physics to the extent that it did is considered breaking them.

If having the ability to completely arrange matter at will isn't the laws of physics then I have no idea what is.

I come back to my jet plane statement.   *WE* may not have a full understanding of what all the laws of physics even are.

200 years ago.  Most men would have told you that a ship of metal weighing several tons flying through the air *defies the law of gravity*...we know now that it doesn't.

Our understanding is *extremely* limited.   Every generation thinks they've learned it all...that we know everything there is to know about the laws of gravity...physics...light.    I say we havn't even scratched the surface yet.    Even if we were to live and learn for a million years...you know what percentage a million is of infinity?   Nothing.   

[Jaffa]

I think what jammin is saying (I'm probably wrong; I'm surely he'll correct me if I am) is that God doesn't manipulate the laws of physics, He just manipulates matter so that it does what He wants within the laws of physics.  So for instance, nothing can defy gravity, so if God wanted to make someone fly, He couldn't ignore the law of gravity, He would just have to make them temporarily lighter than air.  Then they would float, and it would be in accordance with the law of gravity. 

(If I am wrong, jammindude, sorry.  Again, just trying to understand your perspective.) 

[rumborak]

God is incapable of lying. 

Genesis 2:17 would like a word with you.

[theseoafs]

He made man from the dust....but it all falls under the physical laws that he created.   

If God made man from dust, then he's already completely obliterated the laws of physics.  As well as the laws of biology and chemistry.

[eric42434224]

He made man from the dust....but it all falls under the physical laws that he created.   

If God made man from dust, then he's already completely obliterated the laws of physics.  As well as the laws of biology and chemistry.

No it doesnt, because obviously we just havent discovered the process to make fully functioning and self aware humans from the stuff I swept from my floor yet.   Just a matter of time.

[senecadawg2]

Assuming God did create the universe, and all of its physical laws, it would seem that he is above them. So in answer to the original question... I think no.

Then again, I don't believe in God, and even if I did I think I would agree with this sentiment:

I think discussions like this kind of miss the point of God.  But that's just me.

[jammindude]

I think what jammin is saying (I'm probably wrong; I'm surely he'll correct me if I am) is that God doesn't manipulate the laws of physics, He just manipulates matter so that it does what He wants within the laws of physics.  So for instance, nothing can defy gravity, so if God wanted to make someone fly, He couldn't ignore the law of gravity, He would just have to make them temporarily lighter than air.  Then they would float, and it would be in accordance with the law of gravity. 

(If I am wrong, jammindude, sorry.  Again, just trying to understand your perspective.)

This is far closer to what I'm trying to say than what anyone has said. 

Although, as I thought about it today...I may have to concede the point.    Because the more I thought about it...the more it seems that "infinite knowledge" would pretty much make the whole argument irrelevant.   

It's like I said...God couldn't create life without DNA....so he created DNA.   His name literally means "He Causes to Become"...so if he doesn't have what he needs, he just invents it.      I still claim that he does not defy his own laws.   He operates within the laws he creates, and does not wave them to suit himself.   He just has "infinite knowledge"...and with "infinite knowledge" comes the ability to think around any problem instantaneously....rendering the whole thing moot.   

[Ħ]

Jammindude, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with your view. It's consistent within itself. But is it a necessary characteristic of God? No.

There's nothing intrinsically inconsistent about the view that God is above the laws of nature and can therefore perform feats that are above nature.

[jammindude]

He made man from the dust....but it all falls under the physical laws that he created.   

If God made man from dust, then he's already completely obliterated the laws of physics.  As well as the laws of biology and chemistry.

No it doesnt, because obviously we just havent discovered the process to make fully functioning and self aware humans from the stuff I swept from my floor yet.   Just a matter of time.

It's not that.   Remember God has something we (as finite beings) will NEVER have.   *INFINITE* knowledge and *INFINITE* power.   "...that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish." - Ecc 3:11

He will always be ahead of us. 

[jammindude]

Jammindude, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with your view. It's consistent within itself. But is it a necessary characteristic of God? No.

There's nothing intrinsically inconsistent about the view that God is above the laws of nature and can therefore perform feats that are above nature.

Actually, I don't disagree with that.   I would just add the parenthetical thought to the end of your last sentence.   "(...as we understand it)"

[jammindude]

God is incapable of lying. 

Genesis 2:17 would like a word with you.

Gen 2:17 - "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die."
2 Pet 3:8 - "...one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day."
Gen 5:5 - "So all the days of Adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died."

[Ħ]

I wouldn't even add that. Suppose God truly made Jesus walk on water (or Jesus walked on water of his own accord, whatever). Suppose God absolutely defied the laws of nature. He didn't manipulate them. He straight-up DEFIED them. Is there a problem with that, given that God is 1) omnipotent and 2) above nature? No, there's not a problem with that at all. So I think your view that God has to work within nature is silly.

[jammindude]

I wouldn't even add that. Suppose God truly made Jesus walk on water (or Jesus walked on water of his own accord, whatever). Suppose God absolutely defied the laws of nature. He didn't manipulate them. He straight-up DEFIED them. Is there a problem with that, given that God is 1) omnipotent and 2) above nature? No, there's not a problem with that at all. So I think your view that God has to work within nature is silly.

I guess it's that it goes against his integrity.    He didn't even wave the laws of justice to suit himself.   If he is simply "above the law" then I could have just did a big "do over" and forgiven mankind...or let things go on with absolutely no hope for the future whatsoever.   

But he didn't.  *At great cost to himself personally*, he allowed his son to become a lower form of life, be ridiculed, spit on, beaten, tortured, and finally killed *as a traitor*....all of that, because he would not waive the "soul for soul" law to suit himself.    He was willing to pay that price to save man because he loved them that much. 

So he cannot...he is incapable of defying his own laws.   

[theseoafs]

He made man from the dust....but it all falls under the physical laws that he created.   

If God made man from dust, then he's already completely obliterated the laws of physics.  As well as the laws of biology and chemistry.

No it doesnt, because obviously we just havent discovered the process to make fully functioning and self aware humans from the stuff I swept from my floor yet.   Just a matter of time.

It's not that.   Remember God has something we (as finite beings) will NEVER have.   *INFINITE* knowledge and *INFINITE* power.   "...that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish." - Ecc 3:11

He will always be ahead of us.

That doesn't somehow make it possible to turn dirt into a human without defying natural laws. 

[Orthogonal]

Words like "Infinite Knowledge and Power" get thrown around, without ever defining what they really mean.

Do you believe in magic? How does God do anything in the Universe that wouldn't already be qualified as magic. If it is not magic, then it is natural laws of physics and we don't need God to explain it.

[rumborak]

So, err, God doesn't know the difference between a day and a millennium? That's ... rather sad.

[jammindude]

So, err, God doesn't know the difference between a day and a millennium? That's ... rather sad.

 

[rumborak]

He's talking to Adam and Eve, two humans. Why is an omniscient being incapable of using the correct word? A day is a day, that is from sunrise to sunrise.

Fact is, neither Adam nor Eve died. They lived for a long time and had tons of kids. Whatever God threatened, it didn't happen. He lied. Or more likely, the author of the story didn't think some people 3000 years later would take his story literal.

In fact, it is rather remarkable how the obvious meaning of the story is completely ignored by most branches of Christianity these days.

[Adami]

Fact is, neither Adam nor Eve died. They lived for a long time and had tons of kids. Whatever God threatened, it didn't happen. He lied.

They didn't die? I'm pretty sure (if they ever existed) that they eventually died. I mean I doubt Adam and Eve run a pub in west Essex or something.

[theseoafs]

I think he means that Adam and Eve didn't die as a direct result of eating the fruit, which was the impression God gives in that particular verse.

[Adami]

I think he means that Adam and Eve didn't die as a direct result of eating the fruit, which was the impression God gives in that particular verse.

Well I think the interpretation was that had they not eaten that specific fruit, they would have lived forever. So they did die, eventually. Had they not eaten the fruit they would not have ever died, and would indeed be currently running a pub in west Essex.

[jammindude]

He's talking to Adam and Eve, two humans. Why is an omniscient being incapable of using the correct word? A day is a day, that is from sunrise to sunrise.

Fact is, neither Adam nor Eve died. They lived for a long time and had tons of kids. Whatever God threatened, it didn't happen. He lied. Or more likely, the author of the story didn't think some people 3000 years later would take his story literal.

In fact, it is rather remarkable how the obvious meaning of the story is completely ignored by most branches of Christianity these days.

So wait...when my dad said "back in my day"...he's talking about *ONE* DAY???

And all those stories that start..."In the day when kings ruled the earth"....that means *ONE* DAY???   

The dictionary definition of "day"...even in the English language (not to mention the original term in Hebrew) allows for a far broader definition of the term day.

Dictionary dot com has *FIFTEEN* definitions for the word "day".   

Number 12 reads as: "period of existence, power, or influence: in the day of the dinosaurs."

And that's just one definition.   Genesis speaks of the creative days (an indefinite period of time in which the described creation occurred...most likely thousands of years or longer) and then in Genesis 2:4 refers to the entire first chapter as a "day"...     

The English term day is a very, VERY broad word. 

[jammindude]

I think he means that Adam and Eve didn't die as a direct result of eating the fruit, which was the impression God gives in that particular verse.

I never got that.  I never thought the fruit was poisonous.   It seemed clear to me that it would simply be an act of disobedience.

[Adami]

True, but it depends on the context. It says the first day, second day etc. Not back in the day.


If a guy said "In my day, women couldn't vote" then that would be true. However if he said "A day ago, women couldn't vote" then that wouldn't be true.