Wintersun thread (New album, "TIME I", is out!)

[gazinwales]

Yeah Jari's voice has improved a lot since the debut. I wonder if it was a natural progression or did he take sining lessons?
Also the debut has the very unique (in this style/genre of music) sound of a Fender Telecaster on many songs.
Easy to pick which songs and really does enhance the so

[Scorpion]

I found a really good multi cam version of The Way Of The Fire.
I didn't want to hear it, but given the news from Jari yesterday, I wouldn't expect to see Time II this year.
I couldn't resist and boy is it an epic and going to sound amazing on the studio version.

Link, please?

[Deathless]

So, Jari wrote another novel on facebook, though this is more of a response to that blog post.

If you have a few minutes to kill...

LEARING FEW THINGS ABOUT MY LAST “REALITY UPDATE”
I feel like I need to explain the situation more clearly as some people seem to be a bit confused. So let´s get more into the details…
Let´s get one thing clear first, I don´t live in a fantasy world. You might say I´m a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to album production. Fine, I´ll give you that. But I do make compromises, lots of them. TIME I was all a huge compromise. The melody guitars are all old modelling amps (not the new Axe-FXs and whatnots which sound pretty decent actually). There simply was not enough budget to record them properly in a professional studio, so they sound pretty horrible and are very hard mix and fit in with the rest of the instruments. The vocals were all recorded in various rehearsal places just with my laptop (the reason why it took so long to record them and also because of the hundreds of vocal tracks I needed to record for these albums).

They are certainly not the best quality vocal recordings. Again, another compromise for not having enough budget for a 3rd party professional studio. I also wanted some time to practise my vocals while recording, which I´ve never really done before, but you can hear the improvement. Also I do some of the vocal arrangement work and experiment with different things while recording, this would be impossible in a 3rd party studio. The rhythm guitars were actually recorded in a 3rd party studio, but I didn´t have enough time to craft the sound exactly like I want it. Rhythm guitar is the thing I´m the most perfectionist and passionate about. There´s only a handful of rhythm guitar sounds I like from the millions of heavy metal records out there, so you can imagine how hard it is for me to be able to produce the guitar sound of my dreams in few days in a 3rd party studio. Impossible.

And to fit it in with hundreds of orchestration & synth instruments, to not muddy the bass, to be able to scoop the mids so the whole mix doesn’t sound like a kitchen radio (I don´t like mids in metal guitars plus the orchestra instruments already eat a lot of the mids space), but still keep the upper mids smooth and not harsh, to not mask the drum overheads, but still having enough modern highs and upper mids attack to have it cut through the mix. This is almost a mission impossible, but I know I could do it in my own time in my own studio… So the time ran out from the studio´s “taximeter” and I was left with unsatisfying guitar sound and very hard to fit in the mix (still had to pay the studio bill though).

I was very unhappy about this, but still released the album! The orchestrations were made with just one computer which forced me to use time consuming workarounds and was very stressful. I won´t even get into the technical problems I´ve had to deal with over the years. It took 3 years of sweat and tears to make the orchestrations the way I had to do them. This was the hardest task and it nearly burned me out. Never again this way! I would need a computer farm to do the all the orchestrations in realtime without slow workarounds.
I´ve mixed the albums in my apartment and you ask why it takes so long to mix? Well, because my room is not a professional studio ment for mixing.

There´s also always some noise issues inside and outside the building, I´ve had even some scary hearing problems due to this for having to raise the volume and having to mix too loud. Never again! There´s also insane amount of tracks to mix (which is very difficult), but my computer is having hard a time handling them well. Very unstable and slow. But the main thing why the mixing takes so long is because the recorded sounds are pretty crappy due to lack of resources to record them properly. So it´s very hard to “polish a turd”, if not impossible. Good sounds would mix themselves! And I won´t even get into other health problems I´ve had due to stress which has slowed the mixing process too (not mental problems, although maybe I´m a bit crazy ).

So again, I simply can´t afford a 3rd party studios to mix in or to record. Not even close. Nuclear Blast gave us just enough budget for only to record the drums, bass and rhythm guitars in 3rd party studio, that´s it. Which all turn out unsatisfying due to lack of time to tweak the sounds right for massive projects like the TIME albums are. That´s why I´ve been struggling with the mixing. All the rest of the instuments, vocals, orchestrations, melody guitars etc… was left up to me to record on my own however possible and getting quality recordings in a “DIY bedroom studio scenario” is not easy. Sure they gave us few additional advances, ´cause we begged them for faster computers and better gear (and all that money has been paid back already), but still not nearly enough for a task like this.

The rest have been basically financed by yours truly with touring, merchandise and just simply sacrificing my own time doing lot of workarounds and recording in rehearsal places or where ever I could due to the lack of funding, but I had to make these albums a reality no matter what! But my point is, as you can see, I do make lots of compromises. TIME I is far from perfect, but still released the album! Would a perfectionist do that?

I certainly can make music renting a 3rd party studio for one month and release an album, as I have already proven that many times in the past. But I won´t do that again, that is my decision. I´ve never been happy with those albums and the results I get from 3rd party studios. Waste of money. There simply isn´t enough time (with our budgets) to craft the sounds the way I want them in unfamiliar space with unfamiliar gear, monitors and under the stress of the “studio taximeter” running. It´s usually just, let´s throw a mic there and wish for the best! “We´ll fix it in the mix… maybe!”.

Making music makes me happy. The feeling you get when you first get a new idea, a riff, a melody, a vision of the song is a great feeling and you just want to make that vision come out from the speakers exactly like you hear it in your head. Releasing music that doesn’t represent that vision and is compromised makes me unhappy. Why continue to do something that makes you unhappy? Those past albums were like demos to me and nothing like the TIME albums or the future material are in their complexity. I just want to get the production right for these albums! I know some people don’t care about the production quality that much, but I do. I wouldn´t be able to ever do these albums in 30, 60 or 90 days in a 3rd party studio “like all the other bands do it”.

Sorry, but I´m just not that skilled of a human being! I would need to rent a 3rd party studio for a year or two or even three years depending on the project and live there 24/7. But obviously who can afford that? You could invest and build your own studio with that money and make many albums until you die. The main thing that people need to understand is that the TIME albums and my future material are so much more complex to make than my previous albums were and I just can´t continue to do them like I´ve been forced to do them for the past 10 years. I think we´ve all established by now that this isn´t working. You have to also remember, I do these albums basically alone. Produce, record, engineer, sing, play, mix, master, write all the music & lyrics… Who else does that? Anyone in Finland? Anyone in the world? Well maybe Devin Townsend, but he´s fucking Devin Townsend! I´m just nobody from Konala, Helsinki.

During these years I´ve been already acquiring studio gear and started doing most of the stuff myself and I love it! I´ve gotta pretty good DAW and monitor setup, so basically I got most of the studio gear already. But there´s still one major thing that is missing and that is the studio space. A place to work without interruptions, where I can crank up guitar amps 24/7, 365 days a year without the neighbors calling the cops, to record and practise my singing everyday, to record drums and so on… Having everything always set up ready to record and to mix night or day in a good mixing room would speed up the whole process immensely. It would be also great for the whole band, ´cause we´d have our own rehearsal room for the first time, sort of “Wintersun headquarters”.

This would really free us to make albums much faster with better quality and able us to tour more often, which then would open the possibilities financially to other things like upgrading our live shows, doing ten minute music videos for our long songs, a live DVD maybe even with a real orchestra…

It is a fact that without Nuclear Blast I couldn´t have gotten where I am today and I’m certainly grateful of that, but they have really made the most money of Wintersun. What have I made? Well I´ve gotten some better equipments to do my job which is nice, but I´m still struggling and I´m missing the main pieze of the puzzle, the actual “work place”, which is a huge roadblock to continue forwards. I´m in a dead end. All my money has always gone straight to the album productions. I don´t go on vacations, I don´t have a car or anything fancy, which I´m totally fine with! I work and do these albums basically for free and that would be actually fine with me, if I could do my work at least in good conditions. I´ve been struggling and I´ve sacrificed everything for over 10 years and gotten pretty much nothing out of it, except the love and support of the fans, which I appreciate very much!

But to continue to make more albums, I need my own studio. I´ve had enough making albums in rehearsal places and in a bedroom studios, it just doesn´t work. Enough is enough. I´ve reached the breaking point. I don´t owe Nuclear Blast or anyone anything. I don´t have to make or release albums. I don´t have to release TIME II, if I´m not happy with it. I can make music (demos) just for myself for fun and just show them to my closest friends. Or I can do something else, for example teaching like Kai and Teemu… doing anything else I would actually earn some money. I will continue to always make music like I did before any record deals, but whether I will release the music depends totally whether I can record and mix it properly.

I´ve made piece with myself that if I won´t be able to ever release another album again and I have to take my songs to the grave, that is ok with me, but I do not wish it. Nuclear Blast and everyone around me has made profits of Wintersun and all my debts are paid. So no harm done. Where to go from here? The future is unknow.

I must point out that our manager is a really good guy. Always has our best interest at heart, he actually gave me a big personal loan to finish TIME I. I couldn´t have done it without him! He actually renegotiated a better Nuclear Blast deal for me after the TIME I release. I´m actually ok with the new deal. Except for the fact that I can´t make albums, because they won´t fund them enough for me to actually be able to make them and at the same time they are denying me doing a Wintersun crowd funding which probably would finance the studio. So they are really holding us hostage.

Our manager actually renounced himself from the crowd funding and won´t have any part in it unless I want his help. He wants to see Wintersun succeed. The problem is still the same though, without enough funding there won´t be Wintersun albums. And I´m pretty sure I would not be able to gather enough finances on my own with just “Jari Mäenpää´s studio crowd funding” without any meaningful perk like TIME II high quality album download for example. It would have to be a big Wintersun campaign with a team of people helping me to realise this dream. But I will try to figure something out, I´m not giving up!

TIME II is now in a good place mixwise. I´m pretty happy with the drums, bass & the orchestrations. The whole thing is sounding so much more powerful and clear than TIME I. Really proud of what I´ve been able to achieve with these “not so perfect” recordings and with the intense orchestra layers. It´s so difficult to mix stuff like this, especially with my mixing conditions. But I won´t ruin the hard work I´ve done so far by throwing a crappy guitar sound on top ruining the whole mix. That´s one compromise I won´t make anymore. And I won´t be spending anymore money for 3rd party studios either. I will save and invest every penny for my own studio. Actually for those who complained not hearing the guitars enough on TIME I, the guitars were left purposely little bit back in the mix, because they were so crappy.

Or those who critized the production otherwise, now you know the reason why it wasn´t top notch quality. No money = demo quality. And for those who doubted me having written already 5 albums worth of new material, I´ve written actually more. That was just a conservative estimate. Bottom line, if people want me to make music and release Wintersun albums, I need enough funding for my personal studio where I can craft my music, record and produce my sounds in piece. It is as simple as that. I can´t make this complex music any other way anymore. I am just one man with limited resources and limited skills. I can´t magically pull albums from thin air. Maybe other bands can do their albums “the usual way” renting a 3rd party studio for one month and are happy with the results, I certainly respect that! I´ve been there, done that.

I know that many metal bands have all got their own hardships and I am not certainly underrating anyone´s situation. But every situation is unique and mine certainly is. I´ve seen some comments saying that “You don´t deserve your own studio, because other bands don´t get to have their own studio either and you should just do your music like everyone else does it!”. Would it be somehow bad for the other bands if I would build my own studio? Would it somehow hurt the other bands, if I could make more Wintersun albums in my own way? Or are these comments just based on jealousy or something? “What makes you so special to get your own studio?”

Nothing and maybe I don´t deserve it, but that is for the fans & financiers to decide and I know there´s lots of dedicated fans that want to support us! It really isn´t about who deserves what. I´m just saying what I can and can´t do. I have my own way of doing things. Sorry, if my previous update sounded like whining or somehow entitled for some of you, it wasn’t ment to be. I am just trying to illustrate the difficult situation I´m in. I definitely understand the realities of life.

The crowd funding was actually suggested and brought to my attention by the fans. In fact people have been wanting donate to us since the debut album, but we don’t feel very good about it. We always would like to give something back. That’s why we make merchandise for example. I admit that I´m a little bit frustrated with the situation, but I´m fine with whatever outcome. But if someone finds it offensive that I´m looking for funding for my studio project and for the Wintersun albums, then they got some personal problems. Most of the comments have been really encouraging, supportive and positive though and I appreciate that!

Currently I´m negotiating with Nuclear Blast and our manager how we could make this work for all parties… We´ll see if we can work this out.
I certainly hope that we´ll find a solution, so we can release more Wintersun albums and share them with the world. It is my dream and passion to make music and it makes me happy to see that so many people care about Wintersun. I´m very grateful!!! All your supportive posts have given me lot of hope and I´m certainly not quitting the fight!

Thank you and thanks for listening!
Jari
p.s. Everyone enjoying their popcorn?

[Dark Castle]

Jesus christ this guy. Your situation isn't unique at all, it's your shitty attitude that's unique. The fact that you refuse to use 3rd party studios because you have to spend a shit load of time crafting the "perfect guitar tone" which won't happen, because you'll never find something you deem perfect is entirely your own fucking fault, not that you don't have enough support.
"I can't magically pull albums out of thin air"
Nobody is asking you to do this, it's just expected that you actually release music, and not go on some personal quest for perfection that you'll never be able to finish.

As far as being able to mix whenever he wants, my friend records and mixes in his apartment, we record and mix in ours, sometimes with headphones, but a lot of times with our monitors, and it's not like the walls are thick either, and we never gets complaints and do some pretty rad mixes. If he has the gear like he says he does, he could EASILY be doing all of this stuff right now. He does not need a warehouse in some unpopulated or lived in spot to do this shit. He could easily treat his room for not too much to cut down the noise that goes around, he could do so many things right now if like he says he has everything but his "space".

I have zero sympathy for this guy. It's too bad if we never get more Wintersun music, but what a fucking tool, just a bunch of excuses for his quest for the most perfect sound in all of metal, which he will never find if he can't find a decent sound he likes in the span of a few days. Dude is just the pickiest person in metal.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

My god the rant is high in this one! 

I'm not mad at him for venting his feelings even if I don't agree with him, I simply don't care because I feel there's alot more than what's being said here that's not right.
I just hope to hear another Wintersun album in the coming years.

[Dr. DTVT]

DC, your sig pic is so perfect for Jari 

[gazinwales]

Jesus christ this guy. Your situation isn't unique at all, it's your shitty attitude that's unique. The fact that you refuse to use 3rd party studios because you have to spend a shit load of time crafting the "perfect guitar tone" which won't happen, because you'll never find something you deem perfect is entirely your own fucking fault, not that you don't have enough support.
"I can't magically pull albums out of thin air"
Nobody is asking you to do this, it's just expected that you actually release music, and not go on some personal quest for perfection that you'll never be able to finish.

As far as being able to mix whenever he wants, my friend records and mixes in his apartment, we record and mix in ours, sometimes with headphones, but a lot of times with our monitors, and it's not like the walls are thick either, and we never gets complaints and do some pretty rad mixes. If he has the gear like he says he does, he could EASILY be doing all of this stuff right now. He does not need a warehouse in some unpopulated or lived in spot to do this shit. He could easily treat his room for not too much to cut down the noise that goes around, he could do so many things right now if like he says he has everything but his "space".

I have zero sympathy for this guy. It's too bad if we never get more Wintersun music, but what a fucking tool, just a bunch of excuses for his quest for the most perfect sound in all of metal, which he will never find if he can't find a decent sound he likes in the span of a few days. Dude is just the pickiest person in metal.

So you being a rank amateur musician and nowhere near the level of Jari, can generalise that because you and a friend can get 'rad' mixes at you place, then it should be a breeze for Jari?
Of course Jari's circumstances are unique, do you know how big his place is, how thick the walls are, does he had sensitive neighbours, are their strict laws about loud music?
Does he live near a busy road, underneath a flight path, or a noisy business?
I could go on and on, but you get the point?

You seem to have all the answers, but all you really are is very negative and tell us how easy it really is.

Anyone who records at home and records any kind of music, knows it isn't easy.
I'm finding that out first hand, I've spent many weeks searching for the right guitar sound and still haven't found it.

[Dark Castle]

I'm literally at school for being a music engineer, and I already have my associates degree in it. I know what it takes to get a good mix. It is really not that fucking hard if you know what you're doing. I'm not actually a musician, just a vocalist actually! and we record stuff for fun. Our apartment has thin walls, but if you do this stuff at the right time of the day, it won't matter if your walls are thin. I live near a 2 VERY busy roads with constant traffic, and it doesn't get picked up, we have some pretty nice gear/equipment/plugins/etc, and we know very well what the fuck we're doing. And my friend who records at his place used to have his own studio and recorded bands on the reg, he's just here to get his degree and make it more than just experience to put on his resume, so he also knows what he's doing, very much so, we recorded a song with FANTASTIC quality a couple of weeks ago, song sounds absolutely great, and it was recorded in a very populated apartment complex with planes that pass by on the half hour. Jari's circumstances aren't unique whatsoever. Tons of bands are in his exact position, and still manage to put out great sounding albums in extremely similar scenarios.
It's not hard to get around outside noise, it really isn't.


Doesn't take being a musician to know what sounds good btw. And you most certainly don't need some secluded, non populated place to fucking re amp guitars.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

On the other hand though don't forget that he produced two imo awesome sounding Wintersun albums. I don't care how long an album takes or what length they took to get there as long as the end result sounds good. Everyone works at diffrent tempo and have diffrent criteras that's just how it is.
Just because you think it's easy to find a good sound dosen't mean that someone else have the same preference as you. Maybe they take longer because they have a certain sound in their head that they're after and won't be satisfied until they find it. I've heard of crazier things.

[Jaq]

Jari might need to scale back his expectations of what he can get versus what he can use to get it. And maybe get a little less overambitious. For a song that he claims has over 1600 tracks involved, Sons of Winter And Stars doesn't really sound like that.

And while I personally think that Jari's got a touch of Tom Scholz disease, just because you think you and your friend make rad mixes doesn't necessarily make them professional level recordings, DC. That and I have to say if you'd gone into DT side and said what you did about a member of DT, a mod would've landed on you with both feet. I mean if your rant wasn't a personal attack on the dude, I don't know what is. Lighten up, man. 

[Dark Castle]

Saying I make rad mixes =/= professional level recordings. All I was saying was that we can put out pretty damn good mixes of stuff we record for fun with the gear we have(which is good, but probably not professional level). If Jari actually does have all of this extremely expensive professional recording/mixing gear(I only get to play with the sexy gear at school  ), he could most definitely be doing what needs to be done for the next Wintersun album. I don't really get how my rant(which it definitely was) comes out to be a personal attack. He's a dude with unrealistic standards, who went on  a mother load of a rant on the very label that has always supported him, and even given him more money to finish previous albums, and now when they won't dish out anymore, they're suddenly monsters who want to see his artistic vision die. It's a terrible fucking attitude and I think it'd be pretty hard to say otherwise. And as far as the crowd funding goes, the reason he claims he's not allowed to do that is because incentives for funding his studio would probably be a copy of Time II if you helped fund the studio, which NB would HAVE to take a cut of, seeing as they legally get a part of the profits from that, and Jari doesn't like that, thinks it's unfair when in reality, it's absolutely what should happen.

Not to mention the fact that he needs an entire year(actually he said it could easily take up to three lol) just to record the album as he said if he could get his own studio blatantly shows how bad with time management he is and kind of paints a picture of his ridiculous quest for perfection in guitar tones, not to mention other instrumentation. It's understandable if you work a little slower than some bands, like Red Fang who can go into the studio, and bang out their record in swift time, but taking a year or up to three years as he even said just to find "TEH PERFECK" guitar tone and record instruments is just mind blowing. They sounded great I thought on the last two albums, the first album of which was recorded in a third party studio, but he's pretty much said they were shit guitar tones that he HAD to put on the record. Jari just sounds like somebody who will never ever ever be happy with what he has, because in his mind it can always be better, and that honestly just makes him out to be the destroying his own artistic vision, because it's never something he'll be happy with.

It is a fact that without Nuclear Blast I couldn´t have gotten where I am today and I’m certainly grateful of that, but they have really made the most money of Wintersun. What have I made? Well I´ve gotten some better equipments to do my job which is nice, but I´m still struggling and I´m missing the main pieze of the puzzle, the actual “work place”, which is a huge roadblock to continue forwards.

This also really ticks me off. Of course Nuclear Blast made the most money out of Wintersun, YOU signed to their label, and they gave you loans to record, mix, master your album, which you have to repay through album sales, and they've bought equipment for you as well. So if you're struggling, maybe you shouldn't have gone out and bought all top of the line gear for live performing and studio equipment, and he's still not completely satisfied with their live sound lol. Maybe it would have been a better idea to take some compromises on gear you didn't really need at the moment and put it towards renting a space to record and mix in if you so desperately need a place. Or you could have sprung money towards cheap yet effective ways to treat the space you do have.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

. Jari just sounds like somebody who will never ever ever be happy with what he has, because in his mind it can always be better, and that honestly just makes him out to be the destroying his own artistic vision, because it's never something he'll be happy with.

That sounds like pretty much every musician I know, atleast those who do it professionally including myself.  You always wanna do just one more take.

Btw DC it almost sounds like you take it personally.  Just    chill.

[Dark Castle]

 
How am I taking it personally? I am not irate, my post isn't a bunch of baseless attacks on Jari, I'm just calling him out on his load of bullshit.(Not that he'll ever read any of this). Aside from some colorful language, which is normal for me, I don't see anywhere me getting to the point that I need to chill. I have thoughts on the matter, and they happen to translate themselves into lengthy posts, because as soon as I'm done typing up one paragraph, another paragraph of points hits my mind.

The difference between other musicians and Jari though is that they have a sense of time management and have realistic expectations. They know that there's only so many takes you can do. They know you can't make something perfect. There will always be a small flaw somewhere at least, and it's okay, it's what can give music it's character. Most also know that unless you're at a certain level, you have to be realistic with how much time you've got to work with something. Jari isn't Tool, Metallica, or a band of similar nature, they can afford to take all this time to make new records, Jari can not, and shouldn't expect to have the time to, while doing nothing to make it financially possible.

[gazinwales]

Two things that Jari said are certainly true to my ears.
Time I, is one of my favorite albums of all time, if not my all time fave.
The songs, arrangements and production are amazing.
The mix however, as Jari said not the best and sounds second rate.
All those amazing sounds are mostly buried. But the guitars sound really bad and way too low in the mix and now we know the reason why.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I've never had an issue with the production on Time I. I actually really like the way it sounds.

[gazinwales]

Production, as I said i great, the mix isn't up to the same standand.
The not so 'busy' parts are okay, but when everything kicks in, a lot of the sounds become a blur.
I can only imagine how good a new Jari mix in his own studio would sound and a 5.1 version would be amazing.

[Obfuscation]

The fact that we can't comment or criticize someone we're talking about is pretty lame you guys because at least DC is backing up what he is saying by giving examples. Also he's not the only one that feels that way since I see many other people in other places saying the same thing so its not something personal. Its just a matter or understanding what your situation is and dealing with it. Jari can't expect Nuclear Blast to make him a special exception of all the artists they have under contract and give him these extra benefits he is asking for which NB had no obligation of doing since that's not what they originally signed on.

Jari needs to learn how to make some sacrifices because if he doesn't release Time II, he can kiss Wintersun goodbye and he will be stuck in a deeper hole than before with all the equipment he has that he can't use to its full potential and without a job.

If every small name band without a studio to record in or any place to work on their material was like this, than we all would be bitching and whining about countless of others. Jari shouldn't get a free pass on this as of right now.

Just my two cents.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Who says you can't comment or critize? Your free to say whatever you want. Some may not agree with you though and they are equally right to comment and critize your opinion.

[Obfuscation]

Yeah but I was touching on the topic of talking about certain other people in other sections of the site which could get you kicked.

[gazinwales]

DC is a she, not a he.
Yes she can give examples, but I'll say it again, her circumstances, surroundings etc are not the same as Jari's.
For someone to come here and say that they know better and can do better than Jari, who is a professional musician, with a proven track record, is ridiculous to say the least.
I have a lot of sympathy for Jari, I am 44 and try to my best in everything in life, my ex wife called me a perfectionist.
The only difference is that I know I can't be perfect at everything.
Maybe Jari thinks he can and good luck to him.

[Dark Castle]

When the fuck did I ever say I can do better? I said I can do rad mixes with my circumstances which are similar, so he should be able to do what he needs to do, (which his mixes sound FAWKIN radical if not a little too busy what with all the friction layers, but great nonetheless)

Ps, using he is totally fine for me right, I still got a ways to go before I'm a mild sweater wearing gal

[Heretic]

Sounds like Jari is how I am with art. Nothing is ever perfect to me, and I'm always trying to actively seek ways to improve my stuff, even if people are giving me really positive feedback. Everyone says that Wintersun's stuff sounds great, but Jari just wants to take it to the next level-- and I can't shame him for that. Yes, his standards are a bit unrealistic, but if the man thinks that he can produce a better record with his own personal studio, then I'm sure he can. Many bands certainly create fantastic sounding records in 3rd party studios, but perhaps Jari feels restricted or doesn't enjoy the atmosphere. In that sense, I can understand him wanting his own studio and his own personal space to create the perfect sounding mixes he longs for. Despite that, placing blame on Nuclear Blast isn't that great of a way to go about it, though, although it doesn't sound like he's blaming them entirely.

I like the guy, though, and I love his music, so seeing him rant about the painful situations he seems to be in is tough. His ranting nature sounds more like complaining in several cases, but I can definitely understand his perspective when it comes to artistic license and wanting something to be the best it can be. It sounds like he is actively trying to work towards a solution, though, with the negotiations and whatnot, so I'm hopeful nonetheless. Time I was awesome, though not quite as enjoyable as the debut, but I'm sure TIME II will be amazing--especially if the amount of care and crafting that Jari claims goes into his work is tangible. Jari is a fantastic musician, so hopefully his problems can be resolved and we'll continue to get Wintersun music.

[Obfuscation]

I'm not saying he's totally wrong or he has no reasons to complain since I don't know how it really is for him right now. But certain things he wants are just far away from happening so he just has to work towards those goals and that way would be releasing Time II or something else that would help him money wise because it sure as hell won't happen in the next couple of months.

Also I apologize for using he. Habit of calling everybody a he in the interwebz.

[gazinwales]

Seems as though someone else is getting anxious about Time 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl79I9FO16M

[Riitasointi]

Now THIS is my thread.

First of all, I'm a huge Wintersun and Jari Mäenpää fan. The first WS album blew and still blows my mind to little pieces. I just love the blend of metal genres on that record, not to speak of the unbelievable atmosphere and ridiculously tasty guitar work laid all over the album. Jari Mäenpää has, to my mind, a superior sense of melody and elegancy in his compositions. In short, the self titled album is my favorite piece of music of all time.

Speaking of time (hehe)... Like many people I waited many years for Time I and the expectations were basically as high as they could have been. I took in all the hype. I was looking forward to a messiah record. Surely Jari would deliver after all these years right? Well, yes. And no. Yes in the sense that Time I has a song that I consider to be the strongest 13 minutes of music in the world. Sons of Winter and Stars. Oh boy, what a song! From the oriental melodies in the beginning, continuing with the explosion of blast beat fury and the power of hundreds of highly intricate orchestral tracks, through the riff-filled portion in the middle, drfiting thorugh a calmly epic and beautiful section before bursting out into THE CHORUS at the end, this song is pure perfection in my eyes. But the problem is, it's only one song. The rest of Time I, while being absolutely fine and still better than most music in my opinion, can't compete with SOWAS at all and fail to live up to my expectations. Not to mention that Time I is basically just three songs and two intros. After 8 years, it's too little.

Another problem the album has is indeed the mix/production. I feel the album has so much more potential. It might be impossible to make all the 400 tracks playing at the same time audible, but if the record was a bit more punchy and raw at some points it would be much better in my opinion. Jari is such an amazing player that it's really a shame the guitars are so drowned in the final mix (this issue was of course addressed and explained by Jari in his recent Facebook post). In the bonus DVD of Time I there is a live at the studio rehearsals and the songs sound much much better with the guitars and drums louder.

Now to the recent events. I'm really glad Jari explained these issues he's having rather than just being quiet and leave the fans guessing what's going on. I say this knowing that he's really made many people loathe him with these posts. To some, he seems like a whiny bitch living in a fantasy world, wishing for other people to do all the hard work for him. But I think he is not really like that at all. He's merely a dreamer, a skilled dreamer at that, who wishes to make his music sound as good as it can. He said he won't release material anymore if it doesn't represent his vision 100% (not like Time I which had its sound problems) and if he won't be able to release albums like that it's okay with him. Like he says, he'll just keep writing for his own joy then. And who can blame him? I mean, I'm dying for new Wintersun music but it's not my business to decide about it. It's Jari's business. It his music and his alone. Again, like the man himself says, he doesn't owe the record label or anyone anything, all his debts are paid. Now there is this crazy idea of an own studio for him, and I don't blame him for chasing that idea. It's the fans who have been suggesting the crowd funding to him for years, but he's been hesitant about it. Now I guess he's starting to... well, give in. I really hope he can work something out with Nuclear Blast so this could happen. If a Wintersun/Jari Mäenpää crowd funding is ever going to happen, he'll be sure to have my contribution.

Here is what I think Jari SHOULD do (but won't). He should reamp the guitars for Time II at his home, mix the record and let it go in 2014 or early 2015. That way he could get the wheels rolling again, get on the road with the band and maybe even earn some money. The whole Time episode would be dealt with. After that I think would be proper time to think about the studio crowd funding thing and time for Jari to concentrate fully on his new material that he is so excited about. Strive for perfection on those future albums, but for Pete's sake finish the Time album!


You guys know The Way of The Fire, right? The song from Time II that they've been playing live since 2011. It's funny that I'm pretty sure I've listened to all of the crappy cell phone recordings of that song more than the actual Time I album. TWOTF sounds AMAZING and I can't wait to hear it properly. Time II, if it ever gets released, will probably be better than the first part. There are some songs that were really hyped up back in 2007 or so. Storm, a supposedly fast song which Kai Hahto (the drummer of WS) described as the most beautiful, epic, technical, chaotic thing he's ever heard. Then there is Silver Leaves, a slow and mellow song which Jari himself regards as his best piece ever. So I'm waiting.

If you haven't seen it there is a really intersting project demonstartion for Sons of Winter and Stars on the Time I bonus DVD and Youtube as well. In the video Jari shows all the 1682 (well not all of them  ) tracks the song has and it really opens up the listening experience quite a bit. Check it out!

And now I think I've just declared myself as the number one Wintersun fan of DTF! 

[gazinwales]

He does owe NB at least 1 album, that being Time II.
I'm sure that they will reach a compromise, as they did when Jari agreed to split the album.

The Way Of The Fire, does sound great, there's some pretty decent recordings around, including a 3 cam on YT.

[Riitasointi]

He does owe NB at least 1 album, that being Time II.
I'm sure that they will reach a compromise, as they did when Jari agreed to split the album.

The Way Of The Fire, does sound great, there's some pretty decent recordings around, including a 3 cam on YT.

Yea I think I've seen every single TWOTF video on Youtube...  Some of them are surprisingly good. My favorite is the one from Mexico.

Well I don't know but Jari states in his most recent post that he doesn't owe anyone anything and all his debts (advances to make albums) are paid. Maybe his contract with NB was two albums and that is now fulfilled? Or I might be wrong.

[gazinwales]

Well if NB are the stumbling block with crowd funding then he obviously does owe them an album.

[Riitasointi]

Things are progressing slowly....

"Crowd funding plan is done with over 30 perks with all sorts of goodies and special deals including stem mixes of TIME II & I and even whole Cubase projects of finished projects (of all songs). Who´s interested? All magician´s secrets revealed! Won´t be cheap though. Feeling very positive about this plan. Plan presented to Nuclear Blast, but so far I´ve gotten lots of "no" answers and slow email returns. They´re driving me insane! Independently this would be done already." - Jari on Facebook.

[Riitasointi]

According to Jari's post on Facebook, some news are going to be announced next week. I'm excited!

[gazinwales]

Me too, hope it's positive and good news.

[Riitasointi]

So this is what we're getting!



TOMORROW

We are going to do a very important survey tomorrow 02:00PM (Finnish time, no pun intended) to estimate our crowd funding goal. We are trying to estimate what approximately would be possible and whether we could reach our goal and make this dream of building a studio happen! We need all our fans' and friends' attention tomorrow, so please stay tuned for our update! Thanks!

- Wintersun boys

[Scrub206]

I will give him literally all of my money.

minus the literally part...

[Obfuscation]

50 cents I'll give as a down payment.

[Riitasointi]

It's on!!



WINTERSUN STUDIO & TIME II CROWD FUNDING SURVEY (Please read first before liking!)

Good news guys! We have reached an agreement with Nuclear Blast. We gotta give them big props for coming through for us! But first, we need to do a little survey to estimate if we could actually reach our crowd funding goal (which is pretty damn high) before we rush into it. We need to estimate carefully our goal, what is possible and what is not before we can move forward with our plans. This is sort of a test run, but this will hopefully determine approximately how much support we would have. We also want to be clear that the crowd funding is not a charity, we are not asking for donations or anything for free. You would totally get your monies worth!

So we would like to know... If we did this crowd funding project, how many of you guys would be willing to pre-order a TIME II High Quality download package? Stem mixes and many other killer goodies would be included in the perk. All details will be revealed later, but this package would be huge, something never done before! Here´s a little taster what the package would include:

TIME II
- High quality full album download (wav 24bit, 44.1kHz), exactly the way the album was recorded, mixed and mastered
- Includes all tracks (Fields of Snow, The Way of the Fire, One with the Shadows, Ominous Clouds, Storm, Silver Leaves)
- Beautiful PDF extended digital booklet with all crowd funding backer names included (optional)

TIME II Stems
- Separated mix tracks for all Drums, Bass, Rhythm Guitars, Melody Guitars & Solos, Vocals, Orchestrations of all songs
- Make your own mix, adjust the levels for your own liking, listen all the main instruments separately, discover and learn all the secrets inside the mix layers

But that´s just for starters, this package would include many other items and surprises. We feel very confident about this and trust that you all would go crazy about it! And this package is just the first perk on the list.  But this would be our main focus for the campaign.
The price would be very affordable and with the guarantee that 100% of the raised money would go for the funding of our studio and Wintersun´s album productions. This would be your chance of a lifetime to support us directly and get an insane TIME II package for your money at the same time (pun intended!). So win-win! All we want you to do for now is...

Please LIKE this post if you would buy and support us.

Please DO NOT click the LIKE if you would not buy.

AND PLEASE SHARE THIS POST TO EVERYONE!!! Because it's important that all our potential supporters see this post and we get some idea whether there's a chance to reach our goal.

Thanks!

- Wintersun boys