DREAM THEATER SURVIVOR - RESULTS/DISCUSSION - 2009, 2010, 2012

[Darkes7]

Definitely hidden.

[Quadrochosis]

Definitely hidden.

[yorost]

[PlaysLikeMyung]

im sorry, but i think that hiding the results is only for the people who were butthurt that scarred usually did well in the survivor. The reaction last year (hiding the results midway through awake) was immature and completely screwed up the survivor. The point of a survivor is for songs to SURVIVE. And liike the show, you may gang up on other songs to to save the ones you love

[tri.ad]

im sorry, but i think that hiding the results is only for the people who were butthurt that scarred usually did well in the survivor. The reaction last year (hiding the results midway through awake) was immature and completely screwed up the survivor. The point of a survivor is for songs to SURVIVE. And liike the show, you may gang up on other songs to to save the ones you love

I agree with this. But as it seems, the results are going to be hidden anyway, so...

[zxlkho]

The point of a survivor should be to vote for you least favorite song, not to use strategy to save your favorite ones. Hiding the results will help that.

[yorost]

im sorry, but i think that hiding the results is only for the people who were butthurt that scarred usually did well in the survivor.

Just because some were sore about what happened doesn't mean that's the only reason some of us like hidden results.  I actually missed most of last years survivor and whatever the controversy was but just prefer that option.

[ariich]

im sorry, but i think that hiding the results is only for the people who were butthurt that scarred usually did well in the survivor. The reaction last year (hiding the results midway through awake) was immature and completely screwed up the survivor. The point of a survivor is for songs to SURVIVE. And liike the show, you may gang up on other songs to to save the ones you love

The timing of it was inspired by that, undoubtedly, but 1) many of us had been calling for hidden results for ages, and 2) Splent didn't make the change initially because we hadn't previously seen such pathetic levels of conspiring like that. Once he realised it was going on at that level, he made the change.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

The point of a survivor should be to vote for you least favorite song, not to use strategy to save your favorite ones. Hiding the results will help that.

No, the point of a survivor is to see which songs SURVIVE.

And I don't understand why everyone was so upset about this alleged conspiring. It may have seemed bad to you guys, but it didn't seem worse than the previous DT survivor. I say keep the results open.

I'm going to vote for what I think is the worse song. But if what I think is a GREAT song is in danger of being tossed out, I'm going to vote for something else to save it. BECAUSE IT'S MY OPINION THAT THE SONG IS WAY BETTER THAN OTHERS THINK.


So what's wrong with that?

[yorost]

Nothing, but what's wrong with keeping it hidden?  I prefer hidden but don't really care either way.  The person running it gets to make a choice, and they also have to deal with people that want it each way.  Run an alternate survivor where the voting is open if you want, assuming it does go as hidden for this one.

[Darkes7]

The problem with the results being visible and the whole "teaming" thing is that it is completely illogical. It's not representative in any way and it's not like people actually team to save a song that's seriously in trouble, it's basically half-random and screws up the entire results. An example: we've got a survivor with four songs, let's call them Day After Day, Turn The Key, Let It Out and Freedom (yeah, I know). After 6 hours, the results are...
Day After Day - 1 vote
Turn The Key - 6 votes
Let It Out - 3 votes
Freedom - 0 votes

Six people who love Turn The Key enter the thread. PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 They'd vote for Freedom as it's their least favourite, but it won't save Turn The Key. So, let's vote for Let It Out as it has three votes already. And we get...
Day After Day - 1 vote
Turn The Key - 6 votes
Let It Out - 9 votes
Freedom - 0 votes

...and then, it turns out there are 5 more people who would love Freedom out this round and enter the thread later. Six people had wanted it out as well, but they decided to "vote strategically" to save their favourite, so there's no real chance to eliminate Freedom now. Even though it normally would be.

This is an example made up by me on the spot, but it actually happened more than once in 2009. It all goes down to which song gets several votes first, not the one which is really disliked by the most people. This completely messes up with the results, and you get such ridiculous situations like the whole "Operation: Scarred", which basically made every single round a duel until it was gone. This isn't exactly the point.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

The problem with the results being visible and the whole "teaming" thing is that it is completely illogical. It's not representative in any way and it's not like people actually team to save a song that's seriously in trouble

The problem I have with this is that a survivor is not supposed to be representative of the boards taste. Rather, it's a game. think about it.

And as for saving things that are in trouble? Uh, yeah they are in trouble. That's why people are regrouping (especially in Scarred's case)

If you want a ranking that's representative of the board, you do what Rich did and average all the board members' rankings

[Darkes7]

It's a game that has a purpose. Football is also just a game, yet for some reason it has rules that e.g. determine the size of the playing field even in centimetres and every mistake is extremely important...

And, you missed the point of my post.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

It's a game that has a purpose. Football is also just a game, yet for some reason it has rules that e.g. determine the size of the playing field even in centimetres and every mistake is extremely important...

And, you missed the point of my post.

These survivors are supposed to be good natured fun. Imposing all these rules on them would make them less fun. Unlike football, the goal isn't to be the best. I'll reiterate again: THE GOAL IS FOR A SINGLE SONG TO SURVIVE TO THE TOP, HENCE THE NAME SURVIVOR.

The fact that people got so upset over what happened with Scarred is sad. If I don't like a result, I may say so, but at the end of the day, it's just a fucking game, and people need to get over it

[Darkes7]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

[yorost]

It is a game, and when the results are shown during voting there is no reason to assume collusion will not take place.  That's just part of the game when it is run that way as it is bound to happen if a subset of the players wishes so.  That's fine, you just have to accept it as such if the game is run that way.

Running it as hidden is just a different game, one that make collusion more difficult.  Of course it will probably get different results, and ones being less influenced by gaming.

The choice here is what type of game to run, not what is the right way to run a certain game.  Do people prefer open gaming or not.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

It's a problem because, as I had previously said, those who want the results hidden are those who get butthurt about the collusion. Just because you don't like it does not mean you should eliminate the possibility

And what's this about "ruining" results? How can you "ruin" something that has an unclear outcome? THAT'S illogical

[setrataeso]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

It's a problem because, as I had previously said, those who want the results hidden are those who get butthurt about the collusion.

But, those who want the results open are those who are afraid of being "butthurt" this time around.
Besides, Splent wanted it all along last year.
And the Scarred haters weren't the only complainers last year. When Splent changed it to hidden results and Scarred went out after 3 rounds or so, and the Scarred fanboys cried "foul!" thinking that it was some mass conspiracy.
It's not at one-sided as you seem to make it out to be.

[Darkes7]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

It's a problem because, as I had previously said, those who want the results hidden are those who get butthurt about the collusion. Just because you don't like it does not mean you should eliminate the possibility

And what's this about "ruining" results? How can you "ruin" something that has an unclear outcome? THAT'S illogical

Because they want the survivor to be more fun. If most people want it, then it should be changed, simple.

Look at the example I posted above. Several rounds of something like this and the entire results fall apart and you get something totally ridiculous. I'd have to take a look where exactly it happened (it's 5 AM so I guess I'd rather go to bed now... but tomorrow), but it definitely did.

[setrataeso]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

It's a problem because, as I had previously said, those who want the results hidden are those who get butthurt about the collusion. Just because you don't like it does not mean you should eliminate the possibility

And what's this about "ruining" results? How can you "ruin" something that has an unclear outcome? THAT'S illogical

Because they want the survivor to be more fun. If most people want it, then it should be changed, simple.

Look at the example I posted above. Several rounds of something like this and the entire results fall apart and you get something totally ridiculous. I'd have to take a look where exactly it happened (it's 5 AM so I guess I'd rather go to bed now... but tomorrow), but it definitely did.

Well, a prime example is the Awake portion.
Basically, whichever song aside from Scarred that was unlucky enough to get the first vote would be ganged up on to save Scarred.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

It's a problem because, as I had previously said, those who want the results hidden are those who get butthurt about the collusion. Just because you don't like it does not mean you should eliminate the possibility

And what's this about "ruining" results? How can you "ruin" something that has an unclear outcome? THAT'S illogical

Because they want the survivor to be more fun. If most people want it, then it should be changed, simple.

Look at the example I posted above. Several rounds of something like this and the entire results fall apart and you get something totally ridiculous. I'd have to take a look where exactly it happened (it's 5 AM so I guess I'd rather go to bed now... but tomorrow), but it definitely did.

Totally ridiculous according to you. The opinion of one man means nothing in a survivor. It is the opinion of the majority. And if the majority wants to 'save' something because they feel it's the better song, then why shouldn't they be able to?

Your argument seems to be that voting like that is illogical. Given that these games aren't about logic, your entire point is moot. You do not decide what is logical for a group to do. Again, it's all a matter of opinion

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Then if it is just a game, what's the problem with making the results hidden?

The point of a game is to be fun, and it's not fun if it's completely illogical and doesn't make any sense. As simple as this. (And I don't remember any particular problems I had with certain songs eliminated/not eliminated because of the teaming. But I remember it could basically ruin the entire survivor.)

It's a problem because, as I had previously said, those who want the results hidden are those who get butthurt about the collusion.

But, those who want the results open are those who are afraid of being "butthurt" this time around.
Besides, Splent wanted it all along last year.
And the Scarred haters weren't the only complainers last year. When Splent changed it to hidden results and Scarred went out after 3 rounds or so, and the Scarred fanboys cried "foul!" thinking that it was some mass conspiracy.
It's not at one-sided as you seem to make it out to be.

It was foul because it was done mid-survivor. And the main reason it was done was so that they could stop this so-called conspiracy. I fail to see what is bad about it.

If your argument is that it messes up results, I ask you how exactly the results can be messed up because there's no standard result to compare it to.

If your argument is that this isn't the point of a survivor, I ask you what is. As I see it, as I've stated over and over again, the point is for what people think is the best song to SURVIVE as long as possible

The point of these isn't to get an accurate ranking. Again, that's what Rich did earlier this year. If you want an accurate ranking, do that

[setrataeso]

My argument is none of those things, and I would ask that you calm down, sir.

Frankly, I stopped expecting survivors to be an accurate representation of anyone's ranking of songs, nor a viable average for voters to agree on.
The results are what they are, and I don't pretend that they're anything else.
But, people have they're own ideas on how the survivor should be run. Like you said: it's a game. So play or don't, but please don't act like a suck when you're in the minority on the decision here. "The opinion of one man means nothing in a survivor" You're right. If the majority wants to change it to hidden, than so be it.
Besides, I'm pretty sure Splent had already made up his mind.

[yorost]

This is so much fun, already.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I'm sure he has. I just don't see the point. It still seems like just a way for Scarred haters to get their way, even though the game itself suggests that it shouldn't

Splent alienated a lot of people by hiding the results mid-survivor. I may be the only one arguing for keeping the results open, but I'll be damned if I'm the only one who thinks what I do.

I'm even irritated that BF is keeping the Opeth survivor closed. It really doesn't need to be. I've never seen a 'conspiracy' for any survivor except for DT. And that's only because opinions on DT are far more varied than those for other bands represented here.

[ariich]

PLM, your argument is ridiculous and seems to be entirely based around the word "Survive". The whole point is, the song that survives is the one that is least disliked.

Essentially it comes down to this:

If the results are hidden, all voters are in the same position.

If the results are visible, people who vote later get a massive advantage to vote tactically.

Now I'm sorry, I understand personal preference and all that, but when it comes to fairness, there's no way anyone can possibly try and argue that the latter is more fair.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

How exactly would a survivor qualify as 'fair'?

[ariich]

Surely the point is to get as fair a reflection of the opinions of the voters as possible? Otherwise what's the point of doing it at all?

[yorost]

It is a game, so the point would be to entertain those of us on the forum.  It doesn't have to be fair for that.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I keep saying that the point of these isn't to get an accurate ranking/opinion. A lot of it is dependent on participation as well. I'm going to pick a controversial song as an example: Space-Dye Vest

Say that more than 50% of the board loves this song and want to see it advance to at least 3rd place in the album. Now, while this survivor is going on, most of these people are away from the board, either due to vacation, computer failure, or otherwise. A hardcore minority who hate the song will be able to kick it out 3rd or 4th round because these guys aren't around to vote for something else.

So, if the majority does happen to think that Space-Dye Vest is a top 3 song, and it gets 8th place, how is it a fair representation of the boards will?

Either way, these survivors don't necessarily represent the opinion of the board as a whle (or even close, for that matter). It can go either way. It's best to just treat this as a game, and nothing more

[setrataeso]

But, the exact opposite worked in favour of Scarred last year.
There are lots of Scarred haters, but the song managed to get 2nd place on Awake, despite what a fair percentage of the board feels. Granted, it was because the voting was strategic, but that's part of the game.
This time, we're playing the game differently. Frankly, I haven't even heard one person speak up and say "Oh good! This way Scarred will be voted out earlier!" As far as I'm concerned this decision is based on equal opportunities for all songs, not some big conspiracy...

[glaurung]

How does this get rid of the conspiracy? It makes it bit harder to see, but it's still there. Now if you really want to end the conspiracy hide the votes and stop people from posting their votes.

[Mladen]

I say, lets have a survivor with hidden results this year, and see how it works out.

[yorost]

There is no conspiracy, it's in the open so it's just gaming.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

How does this get rid of the conspiracy? It makes it bit harder to see, but it's still there. Now if you really want to end the conspiracy hide the votes and stop people from posting their votes.

And ban private messages