2012 Election Thread

[snapple]

There are certain ethical standards though...

Where? If I can't write someone for auto insurance because they have 4 DUI's, why should I ethically have to write someone with a pre-existing heart condition? In reality, I could write them. But then the state of Michigan would revoke my license and probably slap a shit load of fees and possible jail time. Why? Because the premium would be so fuckin' high.

[rumborak]

The idea that market forces produces ethical behavior is total libertarian lala-land.

[El Barto]

"Fuck the infants that drink our baby formula laden with lead....we have no obligation but to make money!"
Fuck the people who think the legally allowed amount of lead in our milk is poisoning people.  We have to make a living!

Corporations, like all good sociopaths, justify things.  They find reasons to legitimize their actions. 

[snapple]

The idea that market forces produces ethical behavior is total libertarian lala-land.

I actually could write someone with a preexisting condition. I'd just have to exclude that condition from
Coverage.

[eric42434224]

There are certain ethical standards though...

Absloutely correct.

[snapple]

The idea that market forces produces ethical behavior is total libertarian lala-land.

Why do I see all the hate for insurance companies from liberals? Or is that coincidence?

[eric42434224]

The idea that market forces produces ethical behavior is total libertarian lala-land.

Why do I see all the hate for insurance companies from liberals? Or is that coincidence?

Neither.  Must be in your own head.

[eric42434224]

"Fuck the infants that drink our baby formula laden with lead....we have no obligation but to make money!"
Fuck the people who think the legally allowed amount of lead in our milk is poisoning people.  We have to make a living!

Corporations, like all good sociopaths, justify things.  They find reasons to legitimize their actions.

Im certainly not saying some corporations dont bend, or outright break ethical rules.  The only point I was trying to make is that corporations dont have the one single solitary purpose of making money.  I am sure that some are like that, but the majority have that purpose tempered by many factors....one being ethical behavoir.

[Super Dude]

The point of businesses and of the market for that matter is to render goods and services to consumers who demand them. The reason such goods and services are rendered is because they help people in some way. When you sell someone bread and meat, you're feeding them for however long. When you sell someone your medical services you're keeping them healthy. In return you pay them money, so you can seek similar help from other producers of such goods and services. The reason you provide them in the first place is so you can in turn demand them from others when necessary for your own livelihood.

[snapple]

The point of businesses and of the market for that matter is to render goods and services to consumers who demand them. The reason such goods and services are rendered is because they help people in some way. When you sell someone bread and meat, you're feeding them for however long. When you sell someone your medical services you're keeping them healthy. In return you pay them money, so you can seek similar help from other producers of such goods and services. The reason you provide them in the first place is so you can in turn demand them from others when necessary for your own livelihood.

Insurance companies would lose money if they insured high risk people.

[El Barto]

Insurance companies make money by weighing the amount of risk and charging premiums accordingly.  It's been that way for centuries. The problem is that what we call health insurance in this country isn't really insurance at all.  Nobody pays premiums on the off chance that they might need medical care someday.  We'll all need medical care, and we enroll in group plans to make it more affordable.  That's really more of a union than an insurance policy.

[snapple]

Then buy it earlier.

[El Barto]

And spend more money trying to offset the already exorbitant costs.  I understand the business model of what you call health insurance.  The problem is that it's parasitic and contributing to the greater problem.  Trying to add another level of profit into the equation isn't the answer.

[snapple]

And spend more money trying to offset the already exorbitant costs.  I understand the business model of what you call health insurance.  The problem is that it's parasitic and contributing to the greater problem.  Trying to add another level of profit into the equation isn't the answer.

The thing is, insurance is a transfer of risk. Not a safety net for when things go wrong, but a safety net if things go wrong. That's exactly what it is right now. And until state/federal laws change, that's what it will be.

[theseoafs]

^Well, I think we do have a federal law which is changing that, eh?

[rumborak]

It's simply the age-old question of whether one should just be content with whatever the market provides, or whether instead one should manipulate the market through regulations to provide increased societal value. I am in the latter camp. A market is a tool; use it like one.
Conservatives rather view the market like a deity that provides but must not be touched. If it doesn't give you what you want it is your fault. A very Catholic approach to economy.

[snapple]

It's simply the age-old question of whether one should just be content with whatever the market provides, or whether instead one should manipulate the market through regulations to provide increased societal value. I am in the latter camp. A market is a tool; use it like one.
Conservatives rather view the market like a deity that provides but must not be touched. If it doesn't give you what you want it is your fault. A very Catholic approach to economy.

Many, many Conservatives want to change the rules. They just don't want it to be government mandated (or choose whatever words fit the boot).

[theseoafs]

Well, what are the alternatives?  How do you keep everybody healthy without the government mandating that insurance companies have to keep everybody healthy?  (Serious question, by the way.)

[El Barto]

Well, what are the alternatives?  How do you keep everybody healthy without the government mandating that insurance companies have to keep everybody healthy?  (Serious question, by the way.)

At this point, in this country, with this culture, it's not going to happen.  Everybody in the industry is looking to make big bucks.  The costs will remain so artificially high that it'll never be affordable without paying for insurance, which like I said earlier, is really just collective bargaining with the providers.  There are solutions, but none which are conducive to being American. 

[hefdaddy42]

And spend more money trying to offset the already exorbitant costs.  I understand the business model of what you call health insurance.  The problem is that it's parasitic and contributing to the greater problem.  Trying to add another level of profit into the equation isn't the answer.

The thing is, insurance is a transfer of risk. Not a safety net for when things go wrong, but a safety net if things go wrong. That's exactly what it is right now. And until state/federal laws change, that's what it will be.

That's the way that life insurance and P&C is constructed.  But health insurance is a racket.

[snapple]

How so?

[soundgarden]

Reapsta, have you ever been poor?  Have you ever lived with the poor? Dealt with them? Talk about their difficulties?  Or are you basing your views on what YOU feel YOU would do if YOU were poor?

The "don't give a shit" attitude is developed due to the overwhelming difficulties to get OFF welfare.  How are people suppose to develop themselves if they can't afford to buy food?  How are people to invest in education and their skills when all they can afford is fatty foods?

This "environment" you speak of doesn't ENABLE the poor to stay on welfare; it FORCES them to stay on it.

[Tick]

Reapsta, have you ever been poor?  Have you ever lived with the poor? Dealt with them? Talk about their difficulties?  Or are you basing your views on what YOU feel YOU would do if YOU were poor?

The "don't give a shit" attitude is developed due to the overwhelming difficulties to get OFF welfare.  How are people suppose to develop themselves if they can't afford to buy food?  How are people to invest in education and their skills when all they can afford is fatty foods?

This "environment" you speak of doesn't ENABLE the poor to stay on welfare; it FORCES them to stay on it.

C'mon. Can we at least be honest enough to acknowledge there are some trashy people in the world who truly don't give a shit?
Seriously, everyone is ripping Reapsta like there in no validity to anything he has said. There definetlly is a level of truth in his opinions. His mistake is making blanket statements lumping all people together.
I have known poor people that want nothing more than a free ride or as free as they can have it. Usually these are people with substance abuse problems who do the minimum just to maintain there habits.

[eric42434224]

If you have to dig so far, and change ones statements so much, to find the "level of truth"....then one deserves to be ripped.

[tofee35]

I watched both the DNC and RMC and I can't get passed the ridiculous smearing and out-of-context accusations going on. A few months ago I posted about how fed up I am with the presidential smear campaigns. I think it's only gotten worse.

I live in Massachusetts and both Elizabeth Warren and Scott Brown have had fantastic ads for the Senate seat. They very quickly get to what they want to change or do, talk right into the camera, then the commercial is over. There hasn't been any he said, she said BS that I've seen. It's all about the strength of their own policies. Elizabeth Warren has had especially good ads.

In any case, the point I'm getting at is that this shit is turning me way off to the presidential race. I feel like everybody is lying to our faces and it's pathetic to me. It's a waste of my time to listen to these jokers. I know smear campaigns are a part of it, but I really don't think they have to be. A candidate that can stand on his own policies without knocking down the other guy has the kind of strong character I'd like to see. Tell us what you do, how you're going to do it, and why. We'll decide if we want you or not.

[kirksnosehair]

I watched both the DNC and RMC and I can't get passed the ridiculous smearing and out-of-context accusations going on. A few months ago I posted about how fed up I am with the presidential smear campaigns. I think it's only gotten worse.

I live in Massachusetts and both Elizabeth Warren and Scott Brown have had fantastic ads for the Senate seat. They very quickly get to what they want to change or do, talk right into the camera, then the commercial is over. There hasn't been any he said, she said BS that I've seen. It's all about the strength of their own policies. Elizabeth Warren has had especially good ads.

In any case, the point I'm getting at is that this shit is turning me way off to the presidential race. I feel like everybody is lying to our faces and it's pathetic to me. It's a waste of my time to listen to these jokers. I know smear campaigns are a part of it, but I really don't think they have to be. A candidate that can stand on his own policies without knocking down the other guy has the kind of strong character I'd like to see. Tell us what you do, how you're going to do it, and why. We'll decide if we want you or not.

I could not possibly agree more with this.  Every last word 

[KevShmev]

Agreed, as well.

That's why I just laugh when liberals accuse Romney and Ryan of lying about this or that, or conservatives accuse Obama and Biden of lying about this or that...THEY ALL LIE!  It's what they do.  They are all full of shit.

[theseoafs]

Agreed, as well.

That's why I just laugh when liberals accuse Romney and Ryan of lying about this or that, or conservatives accuse Obama and Biden of lying about this or that...THEY ALL LIE!  It's what they do.  They are all full of shit.

Well, that doesn't mean any of these people *shouldn't* be called out when they say something that is flat-out untrue.  Just because all politicians lie doesn't mean it's okay for any of them to -- especially considering many people will be casting their votes on the basis of those lies.

[skydivingninja]

I go to factcheck.org to see which side lies worse.  So far it seems that Democrats lie/exaggerate/puff a bit less than Republicans. 

[rumborak]

I don't think that's all too surprising really. The challenging party is forced to make a lot of outlandish claims to sound better than the incumbent.

[skydivingninja]

Or put their personal actions on the president's head. 

[kirksnosehair]

I use Factcheck.org as well.  I find them to be very informative and as theseoafs mentioned, lying by any candidate from any party should be called out. 

[rumborak]

So, looks like after the dust has settled after the RNC and DNC, Obama came out on top. Which is probably not all that surprising, I thought the RNC was actually surprisingly weak. And I guess Eastwood didn't help.

[kirksnosehair]

Those polls at this point don't mean shit.  The only poll that really matters is the one that happens on the first Tuesday in November.


Right now, this race is still definitely a toss up.


I still give the edge to Romney.

[rumborak]

Really? Right now? That's an interesting statement. I would agree that a lot can happen until November, but I think if the voting happened today I think Obama would still come out on top.

I think the debates will make a big difference however.