Author Topic: A thought on anti-government arguments  (Read 1819 times)

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2012, 02:31:38 PM »
How do consumers pay the arbitrator?  Is it like some sort of tax thing, or are you literally being billed by a food health organization every month?

You do this right now with annual tax bills. It could be something like that, it could also be a nominal fee paid at the time of transaction. Probably just pennies on the dollar.

So you're saying it's either a yearly bill or a sales tax.

If it's a yearly bill, the government would have to handle that, right?  A bunch of private organizations couldn't bill me without my having bought a service unless the government authorized them to do so.  And unless they're keeping track of all my sales records and billing me based on those (which I'm sure is quite objectionable under the libertarian worldview, and is quite inefficient and unnecessary to boot), they'll just have to charge me for each food arbitrator that exists.  So now each American is supporting two (or many more) FDA's?  It's identical to the system we have now, except it's a hell of a lot more inefficient.

If it's a sales tax, once again, the government will have to intervene to mandate it.  This looks better than the yearly bill option, until you consider that everything's now a bit more expensive because you now have to pay food arbitrators for every single item you buy.  The net effect here is that food which hasn't been approved by any food arbitrator is cheaper, meaning that the poor -- the people who are most in need of a guarantee their food is healthy -- will have to choose between an "approved" sticker or living a bit more comfortably.  It's sort of analogous to the system we have now, where our massive corn subsidies are making unhealthy food far cheaper than healthy food, causing our poor to have to subsist on junk food.

What if one arbitrator charged substantially less than another?  If that arbitrator is of lower quality than the others, then that means the poor are once again forced to get lower-quality food.  It's a rather bad day in America when the only way to eat bacteria-free meat is to pay up to a shady, private company, isn't it?

Also, neither of these solutions actually do away with the conflict of interest.  It's still there.  The arbitrators aren't actually arbitrary whatsoever, since they're getting paid by the companies whose product they need to approve.  The annual bill or sales tax from consumers is just gravy.

The only solution which avoids the conflict of interest problem is an organization with no financial dependence on the food companies.  Because separate arbitration organizations imply separate standards of food safety for separate classes, we need one organization which will hold all companies up to a single universal standard to which all Americans have a right.  And we have that -- in the FDA.

Now, the FDA does have its problems.  But you have raised none of those problems here.  You made a wildly unsubstantiated claim about how the FDA has killed more people than it's saved (which you more or less admitted was BS when somebody called you on it), and then proceeded to argue that it must be broken since it's a monopoly and therefore doesn't have accountability.  Honestly, I think you're so against the idea of the FDA that you fail to see its practical usefulness.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2012, 02:58:49 PM »
It's not a sales tax because you are not forced to pay it on transaction, it is an opt in or opt out. At least this option exists.

Again, there is no reason to have a single universal monopoly (ala FDA) apply a standard. Do we need to go into all the reasons why a monopoly is bad to see that this is a non-starter? You want competition from those who regulate.

Also, my proposal is not ineffecient or objectionable. It's really no different than finding someone who accepts Visa or Mastercard. Your credit card companies send you a monthly transaction bill, no Libertarian I know of is opposed to this. Companies would just put a sticker in their window stating which companies they are setup with for arbitration and if you also have an account with them, everything proceeds smoothly. If you don't have an account, you can choose to use one of their providers, or buy at your own risk. The whole process is no more complicated then swiping your card at the checkout line and selecting a radio button on a screen. This gives everyone options AND accountability.

EDIT: I did not concede that the FDA has killed more than it has helped, I just agreed that I threw it out there without the evidence. It would be another long thread for that discussion.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2012, 03:03:34 PM »
Transparency? Government regulators are notorious for having none and they have no accountability. Accountability would require consequences for failure, which they have none.

So, is this discussion gonna come down to to you just asserting one statement after the other that happens to fit your ideology, and us then responding to it? The US government is vastly more transparent than your average private company. If it weren't for the fact that companies have to pay taxes, we would know next to nothing about them.
And from personal experience of working for 5 years in a private company and then 5 years in a company that works off gov't grants (and thus subject to many of the regulations gov't is subject to), I can tell you that doing shady deals that would screw the customer was the norm in the private company (and got the CFO into jail eventually), whereas in my current company people get the heebie-jeebies just thinking of using money for purposes they weren't allotted for.
Your statements simply don't coincide with reality, no matter how many times you repeat them.

rumborak
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 03:13:01 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2012, 03:13:30 PM »
Without knowing all the specifics, it's difficult to address, but what can be known for certain is that this private company you worked for certainly did not exist in a free market. They operate in a sandbox built primarily for their benefit from previous lobby's and preferential treatment.

Do you realize that a corporation is a State sponsored entity? It is the legal equivelent of giving a business "personhood". Corporations exist for the sole purpose of providing a legal meatshield for executives to be protected from their actions. Only in the most egregious of actions will an executive face consequences. Remember the BP oil spill? They barely got a slap on the wrist for the destruction they caused. Imagine if the CEO could held responsible for manslaughter due to the poor safety standards that allowed their riggers to be killed. Can't happen with a corporation. In a free market, corporations would not exist and executives would be held responsible for the actions of their company.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2012, 03:17:30 PM »
Without knowing all the specifics, it's difficult to address, but what can be known for certain is that this private company you worked for certainly did not exist in a free market. They operate in a sandbox built primarily for their benefit from previous lobby's and preferential treatment.

Are you a troll? Or was this a joke post?
My company was a publicly traded company that fought its way up in a pool of competitors. WTF are you talking about.

Reapsta, not sure where I'm supposed to draw a different picture of Libertarianism from than this kind of stuff.

rumborak
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 03:23:41 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2012, 03:22:31 PM »

Are you a troll? Or was this a joke post?
My company was a publicly traded company. WTF are you talking about. Not particularly surprising though how you quickly arrived at your "analysis" without any information.


Certainly not trolling or a joke. Screwing over your customers can only be a viable business strategy if there is State protection in some form. Why would a customer willingly get "screwed over" for the companies benefit.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2012, 03:24:38 PM »
You are remarkably naive, dude.
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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2012, 03:26:41 PM »

Are you a troll? Or was this a joke post?
My company was a publicly traded company. WTF are you talking about. Not particularly surprising though how you quickly arrived at your "analysis" without any information.


Certainly not trolling or a joke. Screwing over your customers can only be a viable business strategy if there is State protection in some form. Why would a customer willingly get "screwed over" for the companies benefit.

I assume because for the most part people are stupid and make tons of bad decisions.

In the end, one of the reasons the market can't produce something like the FDA via multiple competing entities, is because the people will usually just go for whatever's cheap and convenient, and not what's best for them.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2012, 03:30:18 PM »

In the end, one of the reasons the market can't produce something like the FDA via multiple competing entities, is because the people will usually just go for whatever's cheap and convenient, and not what's best for them.

What is cheap and convenient vs what is best is a value judgement. It doesn't mean they are getting screwed over. People choose eating at McDonald's over healthy food all the time.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2012, 03:31:50 PM »
I think it's also worth pointing out how you quickly blamed the State with zero evidence at your disposal. Awesome.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2012, 03:32:52 PM »
In a world where there are multiple competing regulatory agencies, the "cheap and convenient" option is more likely to get you killed.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2012, 03:37:14 PM »
I think it's also worth pointing out how you quickly blamed the State with zero evidence at your disposal. Awesome.

Fair enough.

The point is, if a company tries to screw customers over. If it is a true free market, they aren't going to be in business very long, or atleast not use that practice very long. If someone is making money, it will attract more folks to make money in the same business and entreprenuers will undercut them by not screwing customers over. It works itself out.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2012, 03:42:27 PM »
In a world where there are multiple competing regulatory agencies, the "cheap and convenient" option is more likely to get you killed.

And how is the FDA supposed to balance the question of "cheap" vs "the best". Everything has pro's and con's. Everything the FDA approves has a some level of marginal quality that could be improved, but at what cost? Everything has a marginality in some way that is causing you to be less well off than you could be and is more likely to get you killed had that marginality not been there.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2012, 03:42:50 PM »
FYI, to give a bit more insight into how the CFO ended up in jail: He had struck a deal with Yahoo (which we had a project with) to cook the books and inflate the revenue recognized in that project (which was massive). The aim for the CFO was to get an inflated IPO out of it (obviously beneficial to the company), the Yahoo people involved I think got some hard cash in return. The only reason it came out was because of a whistleblower in the end. And it wasn't an isolated event either, they had cooked the books over the course of several years.
Had nothing to do with the gov't, other than that it is the SEC who prosecutes those things.

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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2012, 03:44:56 PM »
I think it's also worth pointing out how you quickly blamed the State with zero evidence at your disposal. Awesome.

Fair enough.

The point is, if a company tries to screw customers over. If it is a true free market, they aren't going to be in business very long, or atleast not use that practice very long. If someone is making money, it will attract more folks to make money in the same business and entreprenuers will undercut them by not screwing customers over. It works itself out.

It really doesn't.

Let's look at McDonalds since you brought them up. You claim it's merely a value judgement, and that's cool. But they are actually making people unhealthy and people pay them money to become unhealthy. I'm pretty sure getting people to pay you to hurt them is screwing over the customers. The difference in this case is that McDonalds is a very VERY successful company. So the idea of a successful company that is built almost entirely on hurting the customers doesn't fit into your idealistic market mindset, so you minimize the harm and say "it's all the same, no big deal". But when a hypothetical of a very similar idea is thrown out, then it won't work because then you can point out why it shouldn't work out, despite that you've already ignored and looked the other way with examples where businesses didn't offer a good product and beat out businesses that did because people don't care about good products, they care about cheap and easy.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2012, 03:50:28 PM »
In a world where there are multiple competing regulatory agencies, the "cheap and convenient" option is more likely to get you killed.

And how is the FDA supposed to balance the question of "cheap" vs "the best". Everything has pro's and con's. Everything the FDA approves has a some level of marginal quality that could be improved, but at what cost? Everything has a marginality in some way that is causing you to be less well off than you could be and is more likely to get you killed had that marginality not been there.

The FDA sets universal standards, and it makes sure that food products produced by companies meet those standards.  The difference is that the poor are still entitled to food which meets those minimum standards, and their lack of money won't force them to buy food which is much more dangerous.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2012, 03:59:00 PM »
You claim it's merely a value judgement, and that's cool. But they are actually making people unhealthy and people pay them money to become unhealthy. I'm pretty sure getting people to pay you to hurt them is screwing over the customers.

It's only "screwing them over" if it was involuntary. They freely paid McDonald's for garbage and they ate it. Are you not responsible for what you put into your body?

FYI, to give a bit more insight into how the CFO ended up in jail: He had struck a deal with Yahoo (which we had a project with) to cook the books and inflate the revenue recognized in that project (which was massive). The aim for the CFO was to get an inflated IPO out of it (obviously beneficial to the company), the Yahoo people involved I think got some hard cash in return. The only reason it came out was because of a whistleblower in the end. And it wasn't an isolated event either, they had cooked the books over the course of several years.
Had nothing to do with the gov't, other than that it is the SEC who prosecutes those things.

rumborak

Nice, it's good to hear that a non-government agent blew the lid off. Just goes to show regulators are not the end all be all.

The FDA sets universal standards, and it makes sure that food products produced by companies meet those standards.  The difference is that the poor are still entitled to food which meets those minimum standards, and their lack of money won't force them to buy food which is much more dangerous.

I'm failing to see where an entitlement to minimum standards comes from. Public entitlements are arbitrary and unjustifiable.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2012, 04:01:48 PM »
Nice, it's good to hear that a non-government agent blew the lid off. Just goes to show regulators are not the end all be all.

Aaaand, I'm done here after that comment above. It's obvious you're not interested in arriving at a nuanced understanding of the issue, you just want to post libertarian sentences.
Even though, still thinking you're trolling.

rumborak
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2012, 04:06:45 PM »
The FDA sets universal standards, and it makes sure that food products produced by companies meet those standards.  The difference is that the poor are still entitled to food which meets those minimum standards, and their lack of money won't force them to buy food which is much more dangerous.

I'm failing to see where an entitlement to minimum standards comes from. Public entitlements are arbitrary and unjustifiable.

So you're a social Darwinist, then.  If people aren't able to pay to be safe, fuck 'em, huh?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2012, 04:11:24 PM »
I kindof understand why people are drawn to Libertarian-ism....but it's like being drawn to Utopia-ism.   It's so completely idealistic so as to no longer be anywhere near *realistic*...

It's the equivalent of saying..."If we all just stopped fighting and agreed on everything, there would be no wars!!"  Admittedly, that's an oversimplification to make a point...but I think in principle it is exactly the same thing.  Reality doesn't work like that. 
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2012, 04:18:09 PM »
Nice, it's good to hear that a non-government agent blew the lid off. Just goes to show regulators are not the end all be all.

Aaaand, I'm done here after that comment above. It's obvious you're not interested in arriving at a nuanced understanding of the issue, you just want to post libertarian sentences.
Even though, still thinking you're trolling.

rumborak

ok? Your story was about fraud. It's difficult to detect regardless of the economic system. Fraud falls under law, not market forces. It is dealt in the legal system. This story just had the upside of being detected early by a whistle-blower. Regulators both public and private would have a hard time heading it off, but once its done, the law has to sort it out.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2012, 04:21:15 PM »
Have you forgotten why I posted it? It was to illustrate that shady deals that eventually screw the customers are the norm in private companies, and that one has to essentially rely on a whistleblower to gain any kind of transparency (which will barely ever happen because of NDAs). If you had one private company overseeing another, you'd get this shit constantly.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2012, 04:23:20 PM »
Corporations exist for the sole purpose of providing a legal meatshield for executives to be protected from their actions.

 :rollin

You really do have a conspiratorial side to your arguments.

Corporations exist because multiple people come together and want to create one business. The state recognizes them so that they can tax them. Even in your libertarian utopia, corporations would exist because numerous people would want to come together, pool their money together, achieve the same end, and to do so in a structured manner that is fair to other people. It's basically nothing more than a contractual agreement. And in this world, where people come together to form one company, legally, that's going to help protect them. Because it's not one person doing everything.

The extent to which current us law does shield CEO's and such isn't because of the inherent qualities of corporations and government, but corruption.

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2012, 04:23:47 PM »
So you're a social Darwinist, then.  If people aren't able to pay to be safe, fuck 'em, huh?

That is a gross mis-representation. If anything, the rich are subsidizing the safety and quality standards that the rest of enjoy since they are on the leading edge of product development. Every safety standard and product improvement was most likely a "luxury" in a previous generation which the rich paid for by being early adopters. As production costs have fallen, the rest of us enjoy it for mass consumption.

Offline rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2012, 04:25:41 PM »
If anything, the rich are subsidizing the safety and quality standards that the rest of enjoy

Good god.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2012, 05:02:13 PM »
If anything, the rich are subsidizing the safety and quality standards that the rest of enjoy

Good god.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2012, 12:48:00 AM »
Good god.

Really now?

Most everything from cars, to appliances to computers and hundreds of other mass produced items that you take for granted every day were at some point prohibitively expensive for the average person. It was due to the wealthy who were able to cover the initial capital outlays that made it possible for everyone else to have them at cheap prices today. The rich do subsidize everyone. Hell, the State, which you stand by, lives by this mantra. Fleece the rich to setup safety nets and social programs to help the poor. I'm sorry if pointing out the reality of the world around you is so shocking.

Have you forgotten why I posted it? It was to illustrate that shady deals that eventually screw the customers are the norm in private companies, and that one has to essentially rely on a whistleblower to gain any kind of transparency (which will barely ever happen because of NDAs). If you had one private company overseeing another, you'd get this shit constantly.

Sure, this stuff happens in private companies, I won't deny that, but you'd have to be pretty naive to think the same shit and corruption isn't going on in governments and government sponsored entities. The real question would be, which system would be able to better deal with, mitigate and prevent this from occuring in the first place. I could go on and on about how the free market would be superior in this regard, but you've made it abundantly clear that you are not interested in proposals for non-violent solutions for social problems so I won't belabor the point.


Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2012, 01:00:11 AM »
Most everything from cars, to appliances to computers and hundreds of other mass produced items that you take for granted every day were at some point prohibitively expensive for the average person. It was due to the wealthy who were able to cover the initial capital outlays that made it possible for everyone else to have them at cheap prices today.

Maybe, but "meat that doesn't kill you" isn't a great creative or technological achievement.  It's something that everybody needs, and unless you're willing to concede that even the poor are entitled to some minimum standard of living, I see no reason to continue this conversation.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2012, 01:07:52 AM »
Maybe, but "meat that doesn't kill you" isn't a great creative or technological achievement.  It's something that everybody needs, and unless you're willing to concede that even the poor are entitled to some minimum standard of living, I see no reason to continue this conversation.

Maybe my point is just not getting through, but an entitlement is not self evident. If someone were to try to live self-sufficient, how is their entitlement to an extrinsic minimum standard of living going to be enforced?

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2012, 09:29:09 AM »
Maybe my point is just not getting through, but an entitlement is not self evident. If someone were to try to live self-sufficient, how is their entitlement to an extrinsic minimum standard of living going to be enforced?

The second amendment isn't a self-evident idea either.  But, wisely, it was put in the Bill of Rights.

"Rights" in general don't actually exist.  They're constructions we thought of.  But we need them.  You can't have a society that doesn't buy in philosophically to the notion of rights.  Again, look at gun rights.  Different gun control groups tried to say the second amendment didn't mean what it says in order to erode gun rights in this country.  Fortunately, it seems they've failed at least for now.  A big part of what killed the movement was the Supreme Court saying the Second Amendment was about individual rights.

Thing is, the notion of rights is a broader thing.  There's no right to privacy explicitly written in the constitution, but we have to act as though there is one or else society will crumble under the weight of its own avarice.  You can't have governments and corporations spying on people.  A society cannot function with such a level of mistrust all around (this probably also means that at some point sites like TMZ will have to be illegal or be basically impossible to legally operate).

95% of safety regulations seem to be needless.  I'm sure the actual amount isn't very far from that.  And the notion of a "right" to labeling on food products for example doesn't sound very sexy, but it has to be there.  You can't start saying "but free markets and taxing the rich and stuff" because then actual people get screwed.  Rights don't exist, but we're better off if we pretend they do.

(Also, the problem with many laws isn't the law itself but the unintended consequences that go with it.  I've never seen any horrific unintended consequences that come with accurately describing the contents of food).

Note to self-described left-wingers - I did just totally use a pro-gun argument as part of a pro-food labeling argument.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 06:01:33 PM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2012, 10:36:39 AM »
Good point. I never actually said Rights "exist" either. They are conceptually a little more sound, but this was about Entitlements and they are complete non-sense.

An Entitlement is an obligation on the part of someone else. If the entitlement is considered public by the government, then everyone is obligated to provide it for another individual without their prior consent or agreement.  You are a slave to provide for someone elses "need".

Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2012, 11:41:17 AM »
I see no meaningful distinction between the two.  I could just as well have said that the poor have a right to meat which won't kill them (just like you do).  It seems to me that you're only raising this fuss about semantics so that your libertarian paradise doesn't fall apart at the seams.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2012, 12:46:44 PM »
I see no meaningful distinction between the two.  I could just as well have said that the poor have a right to meat which won't kill them (just like you do).  It seems to me that you're only raising this fuss about semantics so that your libertarian paradise doesn't fall apart at the seams.

I understand your confusion. There is a distinction and I'm not just splitting hairs or playing semantics. The notion of Rights in the classical sense and as they were written into the US Constitution are based on the concept of "Negative Rights". Meaning, what someone can't do to you. A Right to Life means someone can't attempt to take your life. A Right to property means someone can't steal or damage your property. A Right to free speach means someone can't censor you. It is all about can't, can't, can't.

This is opposed to the notion of a "Positive Right", also known as an Entitlement. This is what someone is obligated to do for you. If you are entitled to X, everyone else is obligated to provide X for you. Positive Rights are anti-thetical to Negative Rights because in order to enforce a Positive Right or entitlement, someones Negative Rights must be infringed. i.e. If someone has a right to Medical Care, they are entitled to take your property without your consent to provide the care they need. They cannot co-exist.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2012, 01:07:56 PM »
If someone has a right to medical care, and they can't buy that medical care themselves, then the government uses some of its budget to cover that cost.  That money was collected by taxes, which is money collected from all people taking advantage of the amenities the government provides -- it is not "taken" from you without your consent.

If you don't want your money going to help poor people, move to another country that doesn't have universal healthcare (hint: it won't be any of the developed ones).
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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2012, 01:18:17 PM »
Taxes are definitely taken from you. They are not voluntary. You do not have the option to opt out of taxes. You are forced to pay them. The IRS exists for a reason, they don't just sit on street corners with a cup asking for your donations. You are obligated to pay. If you choose not to pay, you will be sent a threatening letter of extortion, if you still refuse to pay, men will come to your house and kidnap you.

Why should I have to move to another country? I own my own property, I can live there and never bother another soul, yet I'm still forced to pay.

(This is not to say that providing health care for the poor is not a noble cause, people often jump to the wrong conclusion when I say these things. On my own personal level, I have no problem helping others in any way I can)