Author Topic: A thought on anti-government arguments  (Read 1832 times)

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Offline soundgarden

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A thought on anti-government arguments
« on: July 27, 2012, 03:38:28 PM »
Reading through the NYC Building Code (i'm a building structural/mechanical/electrical engineer) I caught myself saying "my lord, the DOB is really up our asses with all these rules and regulations." Particularly disappointing for my more mathematical leaning mind are the ones governing the actual engineering (ie dictating formulas, constants, constraints, etc.)  The code was simplified in 2008, yet it remains a complex labyrinth referencing other complex labyrinths.  And with that came a whole new section; requirements for energy efficiency.  Essentially the creation of another layer of liberal policies.

My economic right bosses embrace the DOB building codes because they allow for fair and equal business practices, protects owners and designers from incompetence/negligence/accident/honest mistake, and protects those uninvolved (ie sidewalk protections for bystanders).  Additionally, there are precise methods for allowing non government individuals and entities to suggest alterations, additions, removals, etc. to the code to address items that are now obsolete or excessive, due to changes in the socioeconomic and technological world.

However, my bosses freely lambast every other arm of the government reciting old cliche lines of government overstepping.  If it weren't for the danger of discussing politics at work: I would ask them (and I suppose the rights of this board):  Why can't we do this with every aspect of the government.  Why do you embrace the thousands of pages of DOB rules while openly calling for the dismantling of other government agencies.  Why can't you take the example of the DOB creating these new rules for building engineers and building owners in the same vein as the federal government creating new rules for the insurance industry. 

Simply put: "Is it only because you are not directly profiting from fairer practices that you feel at ease to dismiss any changes to the rules?"  I can't think of any rationale for such anti-government discord we hear today aside from that.

Online rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 04:05:30 PM »
That is a big thing about political discussions really. People always argue for the abolition for something they have no personal use for. The fact that something they use might as useless for somebody else, and that it's thus a quid pro quo, escapes most.

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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 09:25:38 PM »
I remember reading a news story about some people in Arizona that were recently harased/fined/jailed for hosting prayer services in a building on their property by the local government. The government's argument is that the building that the family was holding the services in wasn't zoned for the meetings or something along those lines (you guys probably have a better idea about this stuff than I do ect. ect...). The counter point to that is that as long as the people attending the services/meetings are aware of the situation then they should be free to assume the risks while on private property. They aren't putting the public in general at any risk of harm so, why should the government have any say in what goes on in someone's home? In my humble opinion, that is the epitome of government over-reach.

I would understand if the building was in a heavy-traffic area such as a high-rise office building (I think that this is the sort of thing that the OP is about). Then, the public in general should be insured of having a set of rules in place to protect their safety.

Slightly off topic question, are you intending this thread to focus only on building and safety standards or, is it open to other topics such as prohibition?
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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 09:30:06 PM »
I remember reading a news story about some people in Arizona that were recently harased/fined/jailed for hosting prayer services in a building on their property by the local government. The government's argument is that the building that the family was holding the services in wasn't zoned for the meetings or something along those lines (you guys probably have a better idea about this stuff than I do ect. ect...). The counter point to that is that as long as the people attending the services/meetings are aware of the situation then they should be free to assume the risks while on private property. They aren't putting the public in general at any risk of harm so, why should the government have any say in what goes on in someone's home? In my humble opinion, that is the epitome of government over-reach.


You can't make any judgments without knowing what zoning issues happened. For instance, was it a matter of fire safety? In that were there too many people to make a problem? There are lots of possibilities, to just say "That damn government didn't want them to pray" or whatever might not be very accurate.

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 10:00:47 PM »
I'm not saying that the "damn government didn't want them to pray". Keep in mind, I'm not exactly pro-christian and I never insinuated that had anything to do with it in the first place. My point is that people should have the right to do anything that they wish to do on their private property without the government dictating their every action. If you re-read my post you'll see that I say that if the public in general isn't placed at risk then it's none of the government's business.
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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 10:05:12 PM »
I'm not saying that the "damn government didn't want them to pray". Keep in mind, I'm not exactly pro-christian and I never insinuated that had anything to do with it in the first place. My point is that people should have the right to do anything that they wish to do on their private property without the government dictating their every action. If you re-read my post you'll see that I say that if the public in general isn't placed at risk then it's none of the government's business.

Sound ordinances? Things like that?

Offline jammindude

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 10:14:57 PM »
Oh...I find this topic absolutely *fascinating* in principle.    But I want to let it stew in its own juices for a bit.   I will be watching closely.

 :corn
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 10:43:37 PM »
I'm not saying that the "damn government didn't want them to pray". Keep in mind, I'm not exactly pro-christian and I never insinuated that had anything to do with it in the first place. My point is that people should have the right to do anything that they wish to do on their private property without the government dictating their every action. If you re-read my post you'll see that I say that if the public in general isn't placed at risk then it's none of the government's business.

Sound ordinances? Things like that?

Loud noises would be a potential risk to the public so, sure I'm cool with that. I'm not talking about people building/testing jet engines in a residential area or something crazy like that. I'm talking about people assembling peacefully and not causing a disturbance.
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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 10:47:05 PM »
Well obviously in some cases there's probably tax issues involved when you use a private residence as other things. Aside from that and a potential fire problem or sound issues, then I don't know why they'd get shut down.


It's not really a problem of government by nature, it's just a problem of bureaucracy.

Offline jammindude

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 10:54:02 PM »
But it's everyone having a different opinion about where the line is drawn that *creates* bureaucracy.
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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 10:55:26 PM »
But it's everyone having a different opinion about where the line is drawn that *creates* bureaucracy.

Which is why they should just ask me.


I see no reason why my word shouldn't be law.

Offline jammindude

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2012, 11:03:13 PM »
But it's everyone having a different opinion about where the line is drawn that *creates* bureaucracy.

Which is why they should just ask me.


I see no reason why my word shouldn't be law.

The Great and Powerful Oz has spoken!!!   :rollin
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Offline Adami

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2012, 11:06:13 PM »
But it's everyone having a different opinion about where the line is drawn that *creates* bureaucracy.

Which is why they should just ask me.


I see no reason why my word shouldn't be law.

The Great and Powerful Adami has spoken!!!   :rollin

Fixed that for you.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2012, 08:42:49 PM »
So how did things get so outta whack in the "homeland?" We gotta start talking about that revolution of ours.
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Offline Riceball

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 03:41:39 AM »
Great timing

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Offline soundgarden

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 10:50:40 AM »
I remember reading a news story about some people in Arizona that were recently harased/fined/jailed for hosting prayer services in a building on their property by the local government. The government's argument is that the building that the family was holding the services in wasn't zoned for the meetings or something along those lines (you guys probably have a better idea about this stuff than I do ect. ect...). The counter point to that is that as long as the people attending the services/meetings are aware of the situation then they should be free to assume the risks while on private property. They aren't putting the public in general at any risk of harm so, why should the government have any say in what goes on in someone's home? In my humble opinion, that is the epitome of government over-reach.

When governments creates rules, such as zoning, occupancy rating, mandatory fire exists, sprinkler heads spacing, fireproofing, etc. its based through forensic studies of previous incidents to determine the series of events leading to this.  I have read discourses between the NYC Fire Department and the NYC Building Department on potential rules.  Both sides have arguments for different requirements based on their experience (ie, the Fire Department usually have better practical information, while the Building Department usually supplies the theoretical backing).  These studies and amendments can go through years of review and analysis before EVEN becoming a beta draft.

No where is the lay person involved in those discourses.  They can't, because they are too busy with their own lives to be part of it.  The government supports the FDNY and DOB for purposes like that, to go through the extensive process. 

An owner, organizer, planner, or anyone that deals with other people or other people's property has three options:
(1) Sit down with ever potential patron, discuss the engineering history of the building, the theories behind fire safety in regards to fire protection and what possible protections they can undertake, ways of egress that will be most efficient in an emergency, etc.  In addition, they must all, together, plan a course of action in the situation that someone gets hurt; such as having someone wait outside with a mode of transportation that will carry him to a knowledgeable person for care.
2) Get a committee of knowledgeable people to do this.
3) Don't do any of that.

(1) is not practical at all.  (2) is government.  (3) is inhumane and irresponsible. 

My point in that is this:  How well, compared to the FDNY or DOB, does the owner of that building understand the risk they are taking?  Furthermore, how well is the owner capable of communicating those risks to the people.  And lastly, how well are people with balancing risk in fields they have little information in? 

I for one DO have time to study this.  I do not have time to study where my food comes from.  I therefore have to trust in another entity to do it for me.*

*and no way am I going to trust a private firm that has to balance thoroughness with profit.


Online rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2012, 10:58:37 AM »
Libertarian thoughtware always imagines this perfect consumer who has infinite knowledge and time to control and select the right choice. And I think that's why it's so popular with young people, because they haven't been bludgeoned yet by the overwhelming minutiae of daily life.

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Offline snapple

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 11:01:37 AM »
Libertarian thoughtware always imagines this perfect consumer who has infinite knowledge and time to control and select the right choice. And I think that's why it's so popular with young people, because they haven't been bludgeoned yet by the overwhelming minutiae of daily life.

rumborak


That's funny, that's what I assume about why young people are attracted to liberalism.

Online Scheavo

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 01:54:38 PM »
Could you explain that? Because I don't see anything in what rumborak said that really even applies to liberalism.

Offline PowerSlave

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2012, 09:35:38 PM »
Libertarian thoughtware always imagines this perfect consumer who has infinite knowledge and time to control and select the right choice. And I think that's why it's so popular with young people, because they haven't been bludgeoned yet by the overwhelming minutiae of daily life.

rumborak

That's interesting considering that I believe that I'm actually older than you or atleast the same age if my memory serves me right (39). And, I've survived an apartment building fire in 1999 (I was the next to last person out of the building). I've been "bludgeoned" plenty by daily life.

There is infact no such thing as the perfect consumer and I've never seen any libertarian claim that there is. They simply believe that the market is a better system.
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Online rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 10:55:51 PM »
The problem is that in a totally free market without any oversight, it is the customer's task to fully inform over every single product he buys. And those days existed, in the Wild West. One of the main reasons why the FDA got created was because traveling quacks were selling dangerous tinctures.

A free market is a process; implicitly trusting a process is convenient, but lazy and unwarranted given historical data. And of course modern economics agrees. But judging from the Ron Paul Forums, that is easily dismissed by a good dose of conspiracy theory.

rumborak
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 11:18:00 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2012, 01:28:17 AM »
The problem is that in a totally free market without any oversight, it is the customer's task to fully inform over every single product he buys. And those days existed, in the Wild West. One of the main reasons why the FDA got created was because traveling quacks were selling dangerous tinctures.

So you aren't responsible for your safety? You would rather outsource it to someone else and just trust them to take care of it for you? The FDA has killed far more people than it has saved.

Everyone wants to be safe and buy products that will not harm them. In a free market, your reputation is your lifeblood. There are multiple ways this occurs and it is not terribly burdensome on a customer to be "fully informed". Some companies stand on their own with a track record of high quality and safety and people will trust that implicitly because a mis-step would be the end of their business. Other ways are by private ratings agencies and products are labeled with their seal of approval. It's mutually beneficial because producer's will seek them out because their product is more highly valued and likely to sale by receiving a high rating, and customer's have piece of mind that it is of good quality. Any mis-step would destroy the rating agencies reputation and those producer's who use it. It is in everyone's best interest to play fairly.

Online Scheavo

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2012, 02:33:59 AM »
Quote
The FDA has killed far more people than it has saved.

 :rollin

That's the most unsubstantiated claim I think I've ever seen been made. If you're going to throw out huge allegations like this, you really do need to back it up with evidence. Not a rationalization, but actual evidence.

The thing is, regarding reputation, you can only judge someone based upon what you know. If a company does something bad, and they do all the time, they hire a PR firm to make them look good. At the very least, this makes it confusing to judge someones reputation. Do you trust random person A who says this product harmed them, or do you trust random person B who says this product was great for them? It's a farce to say that one's reputation is all that matters, because one's reputation isn't determined by one's actual actions.

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2012, 03:56:42 AM »
The problem is that in a totally free market without any oversight, it is the customer's task to fully inform over every single product he buys. And those days existed, in the Wild West. One of the main reasons why the FDA got created was because traveling quacks were selling dangerous tinctures.

A free market is a process; implicitly trusting a process is convenient, but lazy and unwarranted given historical data. And of course modern economics agrees. But judging from the Ron Paul Forums, that is easily dismissed by a good dose of conspiracy theory.

rumborak

You think all Libertarians want a totally free market?
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Online rumborak

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2012, 10:15:22 AM »
Well, I might be wrongly judging the movement by its internet presence. But when I read a sentence like the one Scheavo highlighted by Orthogonal, I'm not sure what else conclusion I should be coming to. Orthogonal, Praxis, WW and the Ron Paul Forum are my examples of libertarianism. Who knows, maybe there are sensible  libertarians. In my experience so far, the room of libertarianism has museum lighting.

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« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 10:27:07 AM by rumborak »
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2012, 11:06:23 AM »
I realize I just threw that comment out there regarding the FDA, but the point is that it is quite shocking to hear people say that the justification for outsourcing your safety is because owning it yourself is just too cumbersome. You don't see the moral hazard in this?

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2012, 11:13:12 AM »
And you don't see the moral hazard in making customers the guinea pigs of potentially life threatening substances? Free market is perfectly fine when all that is affected with a faulty product is the customer's wallet. I'm pretty sure you would quickly change your mind if you had to be the poor soul who showed the rest of the US population that Thalidomide causes birth defects.
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2012, 11:33:54 AM »
I'm not arguing against having oversight bodies or a "regulator", just arguing that it should not be handed over to a monopoly which the FDA is.

Whether it is the FDA or a private organization, they are run by people and people make mistakes. If the FDA makes a mistake and people are harmed, the FDA faces no real consequences. If a private organization were to make the mistake, they would be sued  and potentially go out of business. The consequences are much higher for a private organization than a monopoly, hence they have far greater motivation to reduce mistakes.

If you want someone to make a call on safety for you, it is better that they have some skin in the game.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 11:40:05 AM by Orthogonal »

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2012, 11:48:38 AM »
Private regulators usually end up being staffed by the same people who formerly were execs at the companies they are supposed to oversee. Besides, in what scenario do you ever sue the overseeing body? What do you sue them for? Lack of diligence? Also, who pays the bills? It would have to be the company whose product is being tested. No conflict of interest at all, eh?

Simply put, regulatory bodies just don't belong in the free market. Their very absence out of it is one of the factors making it work.

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Online Scheavo

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2012, 12:03:42 PM »
I realize I just threw that comment out there regarding the FDA, but the point is that it is quite shocking to hear people say that the justification for outsourcing your safety is because owning it yourself is just too cumbersome. You don't see the moral hazard in this?

No one is saying to outsource safety, absolutely no one, so please stop attacking a strawman. I'm saying that people need help in order for them to be able to monitor and look after their own safety. And that is a HUUUUUGE difference. People, today, still do research, they can still make decisions for themselves. What's different, is they have more information available to them, because of the FDA, to make a better, more rational decision. For the number of people who just wouldn't do resarch anyways, their lack of research ends up better for them, because of the FDA. You do realize, not everyone's as smart as you, right?

Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »
There aren't many private regulators because it has been co-opted by the State who can be subsidized beyond what a company can reasonably compete (but there are some who do exist). However, the objection to a conflict in interest is certainly valid. This is easily overcome. Instead of being paid by just the producers, it is paid by both consumers and producers by selecting them as an independent third party arbitrator. The arbitrator is now impartial to both sides.

Don't be confused and think that this is an additional cost to consumers. You most certainly pay for the FDA through taxes, a private method would just be more direct and the costs can be calculated directly and be more cost efficient.

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2012, 01:12:31 PM »
However, the objection to a conflict in interest is certainly valid. This is easily overcome. Instead of being paid by just the producers, it is paid by both consumers and producers by selecting them as an independent third party arbitrator. The arbitrator is now impartial to both sides.

Lol, and who selects those arbitrators? Hardly the vendor. So, now the customer has to do *twice* the research?! :lol

What you want in an overseeing body is the following:
- Complete independence from the product they investigate. That includes monetary independence, i.e. they must not get money from the company they investigate
- Transparency
- Accountability

There is such a thing. It's called the government. Because that's what it's created for, to represent the interests of regular people.

rumborak
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 01:19:40 PM by rumborak »
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2012, 01:17:22 PM »
How do consumers pay the arbitrator?  Is it like some sort of tax thing, or are you literally being billed by a food health organization every month?
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Offline Orthogonal

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2012, 01:47:25 PM »
However, the objection to a conflict in interest is certainly valid. This is easily overcome. Instead of being paid by just the producers, it is paid by both consumers and producers by selecting them as an independent third party arbitrator. The arbitrator is now impartial to both sides.

Lol, and who selects those arbitrators? Hardly the vendor. So, now the customer has to do *twice* the research?! :lol

What you want in an overseeing body is the following:
- Complete independence from the product they investigate. That includes monetary independence, i.e. they must not get money from the company they investigate
- Transparency
- Accountability

There is such a thing. It's called the government. Because that's what it's created for, to represent the interests of regular people.

rumborak

Transparency? Government regulators are notorious for having none and they have no accountability. Accountability would require consequences for failure, which they have none.

I also find it revealing that you claim a private regulator would fail because it would be led by former executives of the companies it tries to over see, yet completely fail to recognize the fact that many current government regulators are in fact former industry insiders. Ever heard of Michel Taylor? Deputy commissioner of the FDA and former legal council of Monsanto Corp...

And no, they do not represent the interest of "regular people". They have agenda's, serve special interest, get paid by lobbies and benefit corporations.

How do consumers pay the arbitrator?  Is it like some sort of tax thing, or are you literally being billed by a food health organization every month?

You do this right now with annual tax bills. It could be something like that, it could also be a nominal fee paid at the time of transaction. Probably just pennies on the dollar.

Online Scheavo

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Re: A thought on anti-government arguments
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2012, 02:20:54 PM »
"Government" does not equate with the current day US government. That's a fallacy, and it's one that pervades your entire post and argument.