Author Topic: Privacy and anonymity  (Read 20703 times)

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Online Chino

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #210 on: January 11, 2018, 01:30:24 PM »
Chipping babies is absolute insanity.


All I'll say to that is when I fell off the balcony, I left my wallet behind in the room. I went to the hospital unconscious in an ambulance and the doctors had no way of knowing who I was. They didn't know if I had any prior history with them. Previous medical implications that'd effect what they'd need to do. They didn't even know my last name. It was over 4 hours before they knew my identity.  It'd have been cool if they could have just scanned my arm with a wand and known who I was, my blood type, who my emergency contacts were, etc..

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 09:58:58 AM by Chino »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2018, 01:33:59 PM »
But I think that's a bit different than tracking technology.  I do think we will eventually be scannable and have our basic info readily available to replace our IDs.  That seems like something from movies that will one day be a reality.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #212 on: January 11, 2018, 01:41:29 PM »
All I'll say to that is when I fell off the balcony, I left my wallet behind in the room. I went to the hospital unconscious in an ambulance and the doctors had no way of knowing who I was. They didn't know if I had any prior history with them. Previous medical implications that'd effect what they'd need to do. They didn't even know my last name. It was over 4 hours before they knew my identity.  It'd have been cool if they could have just scanned my arm with a wand and known who I was, my blood type, who my emergency contacts were, etc..

I also think it would be cool. I just recognize that it would take a whopping 5 minutes for the courts to decide that you have no claim to privacy with regard to the implant, and it would become the simplest means there is to keep tabs on everybody. Before you go shooting RFIDs into people you should set some inviolable ground rules for how they can be used. That won't happen, though. As far as the government is concerned knowing who and where you are is what matters and saving your life in the ER is simply a side-effect.
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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #213 on: January 12, 2018, 09:39:00 AM »
Yeah, there are implications to that which I find troublesome.   You walk into a government building - where there are scanners and guards, and the implication is that you are surrendering some degree of expectation of privacy - and as you walk through that scanner, a light goes off that there is an outstanding warrant.  Or you go into a job interview and they already know you have the AIDS or are a smoker.   

I do like the Chino idea.  I get "HIPAA" - I was married to a woman that worked in healthcare for the entire 15 years of my marriage - but it BOGGLES me that in 2017, I have to physically take a folder of paper from doctor to doctor, and that it takes up to 30 days to transfer same.   My entire medical history ought to be readily available - at least to ME, since it's mine - on a thumb drive at a moments notice. 

Online Chino

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #214 on: January 12, 2018, 10:08:32 AM »
All I'll say to that is when I fell off the balcony, I left my wallet behind in the room. I went to the hospital unconscious in an ambulance and the doctors had no way of knowing who I was. They didn't know if I had any prior history with them. Previous medical implications that'd effect what they'd need to do. They didn't even know my last name. It was over 4 hours before they knew my identity.  It'd have been cool if they could have just scanned my arm with a wand and known who I was, my blood type, who my emergency contacts were, etc..

I also think it would be cool. I just recognize that it would take a whopping 5 minutes for the courts to decide that you have no claim to privacy with regard to the implant, and it would become the simplest means there is to keep tabs on everybody. Before you go shooting RFIDs into people you should set some inviolable ground rules for how they can be used. That won't happen, though. As far as the government is concerned knowing who and where you are is what matters and saving your life in the ER is simply a side-effect.

Eh. That's not really a concern of mine. Even without chips, the government already can do that (and does that) to a large extent with cameras and facial recognition software.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #215 on: January 12, 2018, 10:25:01 AM »
All I'll say to that is when I fell off the balcony, I left my wallet behind in the room. I went to the hospital unconscious in an ambulance and the doctors had no way of knowing who I was. They didn't know if I had any prior history with them. Previous medical implications that'd effect what they'd need to do. They didn't even know my last name. It was over 4 hours before they knew my identity.  It'd have been cool if they could have just scanned my arm with a wand and known who I was, my blood type, who my emergency contacts were, etc..

I also think it would be cool. I just recognize that it would take a whopping 5 minutes for the courts to decide that you have no claim to privacy with regard to the implant, and it would become the simplest means there is to keep tabs on everybody. Before you go shooting RFIDs into people you should set some inviolable ground rules for how they can be used. That won't happen, though. As far as the government is concerned knowing who and where you are is what matters and saving your life in the ER is simply a side-effect.

Eh. That's not really a concern of mine. Even without chips, the government already can do that (and does that) to a large extent with cameras and facial recognition software.
They can track my phone, unless I turn it off. They can track my car, unless I don't drive it. They can't track me (I'm immune to facial recognition). And because they can do those other things doesn't mean I'll just sign off on giving them more access.

Part of my concern is that as we continue to just blow off more and more avenues to privacy it increasingly becomes the norm. Privacy has value. By abandoning our concerns or trying to protect it we lessen its value, and that's a damn shame. People should be resisting more.
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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #216 on: January 12, 2018, 01:37:22 PM »
It's the head-tilt and the asymmetrical hair style, isn't it?   :)


I wish I had the energy and initiative to develop a full-on alternate identity for on-line usage.   It is the smart thing to do, but I have to put in the effort.   

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #217 on: January 12, 2018, 01:56:50 PM »
I have to physically take a folder of paper from doctor to doctor, and that it takes up to 30 days to transfer same.   My entire medical history ought to be readily available - at least to ME, since it's mine - on a thumb drive at a moments notice. 

I know you are an honest man so don't take this as me saying otherwise, but that sounds way out of whack. My daughter has been having periodic checks due to a kidney issue, and when the ultrasound is done the tech says the data will be sent right over to the doctor, in another city, electronically, and I know it happens because the doc will call me within the hour to discuss the results.

Your second point is spot on, though they won't consider the files yours because even though they are about you, that doesn't mean all the data and files related to you are yours.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #218 on: January 12, 2018, 11:33:29 PM »
I have to physically take a folder of paper from doctor to doctor, and that it takes up to 30 days to transfer same.   My entire medical history ought to be readily available - at least to ME, since it's mine - on a thumb drive at a moments notice. 

I know you are an honest man so don't take this as me saying otherwise, but that sounds way out of whack. My daughter has been having periodic checks due to a kidney issue, and when the ultrasound is done the tech says the data will be sent right over to the doctor, in another city, electronically, and I know it happens because the doc will call me within the hour to discuss the results.
You're both right. Doctors suck ass when it comes to moving information about at your request to other doctors they're not set up with. When they put in an order with a provider they're set up with it happens damn fast with no hiccups. My primary doc and kidney doc can't exchange my information at all. No matter how many forms I fill out, and how many times I remind them they can't even exchange my labwork. Yet if one of them needs an MRI or CT or something, they'll put in a request with a provider in their system and the information moves about with no problems. I think it's the setup that's hard for them. Getting another doctor into their system. IF that ever happens the actual process is very efficient.

Quote
Your second point is spot on, though they won't consider the files yours because even though they are about you, that doesn't mean all the data and files related to you are yours.
I've never had any problem getting my records out of them. That's how I get the stuff from Dr. Kidney to Dr. Everythingelse. And while I'm not sure about the latter, the former puts everything up in my online portal so I've always got access to it.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #219 on: January 12, 2018, 11:41:54 PM »
Medical facilities are getting better about these online portals. It is nice to get a simple ping from your Doc saying "I posted your lab results online."

I think your point that the two docs can't share info is part of the problem, because they can they just hadn't bothered to spend 4 minutes to figure out how, despite it being in the best interest for all three of you.

Barto, I assume Dr Kidney is a Nephrologist? I didn't know that word until they discovered my daughter has a bad kidney. Luckily the good one in compensating well, and the bad one will just "go away." I found that weird at first, but I guess it makes sense if it is just tissue and can wither away.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #220 on: January 13, 2018, 08:35:50 AM »
Medical facilities are getting better about these online portals. It is nice to get a simple ping from your Doc saying "I posted your lab results online."

I think your point that the two docs can't share info is part of the problem, because they can they just hadn't bothered to spend 4 minutes to figure out how, despite it being in the best interest for all three of you.

Barto, I assume Dr Kidney is a Nephrologist? I didn't know that word until they discovered my daughter has a bad kidney. Luckily the good one in compensating well, and the bad one will just "go away." I found that weird at first, but I guess it makes sense if it is just tissue and can wither away.
In an adult they'll mostly go away. I've still got both of mine, but they're essentially shriveled up walnuts at this point. They make a point to do an ultrasound once a year to make sure there's nothing growing on them, but removing what's left is generally not worth the effort. The good news is that one's really all you need. One of the first tests they ran on Kidney Girl to see if she was compatible or not was to check and see if she actually had two to begin with. Turns out plenty of people decide to donate only to find they were only born with one and nobody ever knew.
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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #221 on: January 14, 2018, 08:01:49 AM »
Medical facilities are getting better about these online portals. It is nice to get a simple ping from your Doc saying "I posted your lab results online."

I think your point that the two docs can't share info is part of the problem, because they can they just hadn't bothered to spend 4 minutes to figure out how, despite it being in the best interest for all three of you.

Barto, I assume Dr Kidney is a Nephrologist? I didn't know that word until they discovered my daughter has a bad kidney. Luckily the good one in compensating well, and the bad one will just "go away." I found that weird at first, but I guess it makes sense if it is just tissue and can wither away.
In an adult they'll mostly go away. I've still got both of mine, but they're essentially shriveled up walnuts at this point. They make a point to do an ultrasound once a year to make sure there's nothing growing on them, but removing what's left is generally not worth the effort. The good news is that one's really all you need. One of the first tests they ran on Kidney Girl to see if she was compatible or not was to check and see if she actually had two to begin with. Turns out plenty of people decide to donate only to find they were only born with one and nobody ever knew.

My Dad. 

Did you ever meet Kidney Girl (just curious; you don't have to answer).   It sounds like the stuff of a Lifetime movie.

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #222 on: January 14, 2018, 08:02:20 AM »
Medical facilities are getting better about these online portals. It is nice to get a simple ping from your Doc saying "I posted your lab results online."

I think your point that the two docs can't share info is part of the problem, because they can they just hadn't bothered to spend 4 minutes to figure out how, despite it being in the best interest for all three of you.

Barto, I assume Dr Kidney is a Nephrologist? I didn't know that word until they discovered my daughter has a bad kidney. Luckily the good one in compensating well, and the bad one will just "go away." I found that weird at first, but I guess it makes sense if it is just tissue and can wither away.

I do get all my lab results in one spot online, so I'm at least that advanced.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #223 on: January 14, 2018, 11:15:37 AM »
Medical facilities are getting better about these online portals. It is nice to get a simple ping from your Doc saying "I posted your lab results online."

I think your point that the two docs can't share info is part of the problem, because they can they just hadn't bothered to spend 4 minutes to figure out how, despite it being in the best interest for all three of you.

Barto, I assume Dr Kidney is a Nephrologist? I didn't know that word until they discovered my daughter has a bad kidney. Luckily the good one in compensating well, and the bad one will just "go away." I found that weird at first, but I guess it makes sense if it is just tissue and can wither away.
In an adult they'll mostly go away. I've still got both of mine, but they're essentially shriveled up walnuts at this point. They make a point to do an ultrasound once a year to make sure there's nothing growing on them, but removing what's left is generally not worth the effort. The good news is that one's really all you need. One of the first tests they ran on Kidney Girl to see if she was compatible or not was to check and see if she actually had two to begin with. Turns out plenty of people decide to donate only to find they were only born with one and nobody ever knew.

My Dad. 

Did you ever meet Kidney Girl (just curious; you don't have to answer).   It sounds like the stuff of a Lifetime movie.
She's my step-sister.


edit: Here's the story. Episode 34: Kidney Time for Barto
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 11:28:44 AM by El Barto »
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #224 on: January 16, 2018, 07:54:36 AM »
My surgeon friend was just saying we need to get a cloud based hospital system for easy access.  Medical IT is going to be big business once people can figure out a way to deal with the legalities and get everything to start communicating with each other in an efficient but still private way. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #225 on: April 26, 2018, 05:38:39 PM »
So they caught the Golden State Killer, DeAngelo,  using DNA.  Not just DNA from a criminal data base, but DNA from private genealogical websites.  http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article209913514.html

Think about this.  Your grandma wants to know more about her family tree and submits a sample to Ancestry or whatever.  Investigators can now use this information to track down relatives of hers that match DNA found at crime scenes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they got this former cop, serial rapist and killer.  About fucking time.

But times, they are a changin'.  It's both fascinating and scary to me.

Offline Nekov

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #226 on: April 27, 2018, 05:57:36 AM »
I read the article and now I can't stop thinking that Yolo county must be full of stupid millennials
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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #227 on: April 27, 2018, 06:18:02 AM »
I belong to Ancestry DNA and this is about 60 seconds worth of reading into their terms of service;

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/4048/L9jKnO.png

I really don't see how it's any different than a retail establishment having to hand over CCTV footage that you might be in or a ticket selling service confirming that you purchased tickets and were at a certain place at a certain time.


Sidebar: If anyone was ever on the fence about joining DNA Ancestry, it's actually a really awesome service/tool. I was amazed at the stuff I found.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 06:32:25 AM by Chino »

Offline Grappler

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #228 on: April 27, 2018, 06:34:33 AM »
I belong to Ancestry DNA and this is about 60 seconds worth of reading into their terms of service;

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/4048/L9jKnO.png

I really don't see how it's any different than a retail establishment having to hand over CCTV footage that you might be in or a ticket selling service confirming that you purchased tickets and were at a certain place at a certain time.

This is different than the cops asking Ancestry DNA for their files.   

The police had the killer's DNA from a crime scene, but did not know his identity.  So they submitted the DNA into the website like any other user would submit their own.  They then found a match with a relative of the unknown DNA sample - upon investigating that family, they found their suspect, who was the right age and lived in the areas that where the crimes were committed. 

It's a very creative use of technology for the police. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #229 on: April 27, 2018, 08:45:54 AM »
I belong to Ancestry DNA and this is about 60 seconds worth of reading into their terms of service;

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/4048/L9jKnO.png

I really don't see how it's any different than a retail establishment having to hand over CCTV footage that you might be in or a ticket selling service confirming that you purchased tickets and were at a certain place at a certain time.


Sidebar: If anyone was ever on the fence about joining DNA Ancestry, it's actually a really awesome service/tool. I was amazed at the stuff I found.
When you signed up for A.com, you agreed to their terms and services. If numbnuts in Cali had done the same thing I'd have no problem with it. He did not. They used samples from his ancestors to get at him. The very simple question that needs to be addressed here is whether or not you have a right to privacy in your DNA. We're going to find out very shortly that you don't. Your DNA is government property. No courts are going to side with this one, and the idea that we're protected by judicial process, while outdated anyway, won't really be applicable here either.
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Online Chino

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #230 on: April 27, 2018, 09:25:26 AM »
I belong to Ancestry DNA and this is about 60 seconds worth of reading into their terms of service;

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/4048/L9jKnO.png

I really don't see how it's any different than a retail establishment having to hand over CCTV footage that you might be in or a ticket selling service confirming that you purchased tickets and were at a certain place at a certain time.


Sidebar: If anyone was ever on the fence about joining DNA Ancestry, it's actually a really awesome service/tool. I was amazed at the stuff I found.
When you signed up for A.com, you agreed to their terms and services. If numbnuts in Cali had done the same thing I'd have no problem with it. He did not. They used samples from his ancestors to get at him. The very simple question that needs to be addressed here is whether or not you have a right to privacy in your DNA. We're going to find out very shortly that you don't. Your DNA is government property. No courts are going to side with this one, and the idea that we're protected by judicial process, while outdated anyway, won't really be applicable here either.

Fair enough.

I'm strangely okay with this though, I think. I don't know. This kind of thing must have happened, at least to a degree, many times over throughout the years. There has to be many cases of someone leaving hair, blood, or semen behind, only to have their DNA match closely to a family member that was already in the cops' database. I'm sure people have been caught because of phone calls, travel, or purchases that their family members made. Is this a whole lot different?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #231 on: April 27, 2018, 09:46:05 AM »
I belong to Ancestry DNA and this is about 60 seconds worth of reading into their terms of service;

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img922/4048/L9jKnO.png

I really don't see how it's any different than a retail establishment having to hand over CCTV footage that you might be in or a ticket selling service confirming that you purchased tickets and were at a certain place at a certain time.


Sidebar: If anyone was ever on the fence about joining DNA Ancestry, it's actually a really awesome service/tool. I was amazed at the stuff I found.
When you signed up for A.com, you agreed to their terms and services. If numbnuts in Cali had done the same thing I'd have no problem with it. He did not. They used samples from his ancestors to get at him. The very simple question that needs to be addressed here is whether or not you have a right to privacy in your DNA. We're going to find out very shortly that you don't. Your DNA is government property. No courts are going to side with this one, and the idea that we're protected by judicial process, while outdated anyway, won't really be applicable here either.

Fair enough.

I'm strangely okay with this though, I think. I don't know. This kind of thing must have happened, at least to a degree, many times over throughout the years. There has to be many cases of someone leaving hair, blood, or semen behind, only to have their DNA match closely to a family member that was already in the cops' database. I'm sure people have been caught because of phone calls, travel, or purchases that their family members made. Is this a whole lot different?
I do know of one other case where somebody was busted because his DNA was clearly derived from his father's, who was already on file. It's probably winding its way through the courts, but it won't go anywhere. And the difference really lies in the philosophical aspect of who owns your DNA. We own pretty much none of our information nowadays. T-Mobile owns my texts messages and will happily fork them over to Johnny if he waves a blank piece of paper in front of them. Now we're going to extend that to my genetic profile? Something I have not voluntarily handed over? The truth is that he does own it. Even if there are judges out there that say he doesn't, there will be nothing they can do to keep him from accessing A.com and deriving it.

What probably should have happened is that when they first started, A.com and 23andMe would assign unique identifiers to their clients and never associate the data with a name. It's already advised for people wanting to sign up for such a thing to use bogus info. The problem is that your data was their product all along, so they had no incentive to care about privacy. The exact opposite, in fact.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #232 on: April 27, 2018, 09:53:13 AM »
What probably should have happened is that when they first started, A.com and 23andMe would assign unique identifiers to their clients and never associate the data with a name. It's already advised for people wanting to sign up for such a thing to use bogus info. The problem is that your data was their product all along, so they had no incentive to care about privacy. The exact opposite, in fact.

Interesting point.  I can't read that article on my work laptop (I think the building wifi is blocking it) but this point reminded me of something with regards to privacy.  The company I work for, our CEO was on fox business yesterday talking about this with regards to online advertising and he was ripping facebook.  Facebook has all your data and tied to exactly who you are.  The online ad company I work for does it like you say, we assign a unique ID to each "person" and have a lot of data on that "person" but never have the info on WHO that person is.  Now I'm sure the FBI could take all that data and still figure out who the person is, but at least the company doesn't store that info and therefore is in a bit less of a privacy concern.

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #233 on: April 27, 2018, 09:55:22 AM »
I think the only part that bugs me is the fact that HE didn't sign up to A.com.  But I'm not sure that's determinative here, simply because there are ways around that.  We allow captured DNA to be compared with other, criminal databases, so comparing it to a non-criminal database ought not be that much of a stretch.   

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #234 on: April 27, 2018, 10:02:54 AM »
I think the only part that bugs me is the fact that HE didn't sign up to A.com.  But I'm not sure that's determinative here, simply because there are ways around that.  We allow captured DNA to be compared with other, criminal databases, so comparing it to a non-criminal database ought not be that much of a stretch.
But don't you think it should be?
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #235 on: April 27, 2018, 10:11:52 AM »
Realize this though - you take the test and not only can LEO access your DNA without your consent but it is possible that future generations of relatives of yours - people who haven't been born yet but generations down the line - could one day be charged with a crime simply because you wanted to learn more about your ancestors today.

As an aside, one of my half siblings took the test and now has by last count 3 likely half siblings she knew nothing about.  Seems like her dad was quite the philanderer.  Family secrets are getting shaken up, big time.  And this is only the beginning.




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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #236 on: April 27, 2018, 10:22:52 AM »
I think the only part that bugs me is the fact that HE didn't sign up to A.com.  But I'm not sure that's determinative here, simply because there are ways around that.  We allow captured DNA to be compared with other, criminal databases, so comparing it to a non-criminal database ought not be that much of a stretch.
Agreed, the DNA was taken from the crime scene so unless there's a problem with using DNA taken from the scene and running it with criminal databases, or against specific suspects, there is no problem with "stealing his DNA" or anything like that.

Thinking about this earlier I was thinking the same; if you sign up and sign the terms and conditions for Ancestry.com that's one thing, but the question would be whether you can enter someone else's DNA without permission (I don't know anything about these geneology sites so I don't know whether that's explicitly not permitted or not, but I could see it as a problem if you could say take someone's used coffee cup and get a swab of their DNA then try to find out about their ancestry). But in the case of the government wanting to do it, I assume some court order to say that they have exhausted other avenues could be obtained even if it was against the terms of the site.

Don't know if there's a problem in this case, but it raises some interesting questions about how far it could go in the future. Thinking along the lines of third parties getting access to data later (in the way that has been gaining attention in social media), as well as the government. And, as with the Facebook / Cambridge Analytica case, even people who didn't explicitly sign up for something can be affected. A bit like what happened in this case, except it'd just be using your relative's Facebook profiles along with whatever relatives have DNA on file to build a "genetic profile" for you.

Online Chino

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #237 on: April 27, 2018, 12:03:27 PM »
Is this any different than someone robbing a store and then the police using facial recognition software to sweep social media? The robber might not have an account but could be in a photo of a relative using the service.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #238 on: April 27, 2018, 12:15:06 PM »
Is this any different than someone robbing a store and then the police using facial recognition software to sweep social media? The robber might not have an account but could be in a photo of a relative using the service.
You're still in there because you subscribe to some social media outlet. Also, I believe FB allows you to opt out of the facial recognition part. I know if somebody highlights me in a photo I'll ask them to remove it.

But, there's also the issue that DNA is far, far more intrusive than a drunken selfie at a bar. You made use of A.com. If you start getting stuff in the mail regarding medical conditions that you might have a genetic predisposition towards are you going to be happy about it?

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Online Chino

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #239 on: April 27, 2018, 12:26:58 PM »
Is this any different than someone robbing a store and then the police using facial recognition software to sweep social media? The robber might not have an account but could be in a photo of a relative using the service.
You're still in there because you subscribe to some social media outlet. Also, I believe FB allows you to opt out of the facial recognition part. I know if somebody highlights me in a photo I'll ask them to remove it.

No no no. In my example the guy who robbed the store isn't on social media. He agreed to no terms. But let's say he's in a photo on his cousin's profile from a wedding last year. The cops identify him through her account and locate him. I don't think that's any different than what happened in this scenario.

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But, there's also the issue that DNA is far, far more intrusive than a drunken selfie at a bar. You made use of A.com. If you start getting stuff in the mail regarding medical conditions that you might have a genetic predisposition towards are you going to be happy about it?

It would depend on who was contacting me. Is it a company that paid Ancestry DNA for my info? That would irritate me seeing as my settings are currently configured to not allow third party (for advertising purposes) to use my info. If Ancestry DNA sent me something in the mail informing me that their software identified genetic markers that indicate I have a 90% chance of having testicular cancer and I should go see a specialist, I think I'd actually be happy about it. That would be worth paying for the service IMO.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 12:40:08 PM by Chino »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #240 on: April 27, 2018, 12:39:28 PM »
Is this any different than someone robbing a store and then the police using facial recognition software to sweep social media? The robber might not have an account but could be in a photo of a relative using the service.
You're still in there because you subscribe to some social media outlet. Also, I believe FB allows you to opt out of the facial recognition part. I know if somebody highlights me in a photo I'll ask them to remove it.

No no no. In my example the guy who robbed the store isn't on social media. He agreed to no terms. But let's say he's in a photo on his cousins profile from a wedding last year. The cops identify him through her account and locate him. I don't think that's any different than what happened in this scenario.
I'd say that my cousin is due a solid punch in her fucking mouth.  :lol


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But, there's also the issue that DNA is far, far more intrusive than a drunken selfie at a bar. You made use of A.com. If you start getting stuff in the mail regarding medical conditions that you might have a genetic predisposition towards are you going to be happy about it?

It would depend on who was contacting me. Is it a company that paid Ancestry DNA for my info? That would irritate me seeing as my settings are currently configured to not allow third party (for advertising purposes) to use my info. If Ancestry DNA sent me something in the mail informing me that their software identified genetic markers that indicate I have a 90% chance of having testicular cancer and I should go see a specialist, I think I'd actually be happy about it. That would be worth paying for the service IMO.
My point is regarding who owns your data. You've given authority to A.com. You also volunteered it over to LEO. Your ancestors have not, though.

And this is something that's always intrigued me. Suppose you and yours decide to crank out a couple of little Chinos. Twenty years from now one of them develops and interest in larceny. Would you want him to stand a chance of being successful, or would you want him immediately caught and imprisoned?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Online Chino

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #241 on: April 27, 2018, 12:48:15 PM »
Is this any different than someone robbing a store and then the police using facial recognition software to sweep social media? The robber might not have an account but could be in a photo of a relative using the service.
You're still in there because you subscribe to some social media outlet. Also, I believe FB allows you to opt out of the facial recognition part. I know if somebody highlights me in a photo I'll ask them to remove it.

No no no. In my example the guy who robbed the store isn't on social media. He agreed to no terms. But let's say he's in a photo on his cousins profile from a wedding last year. The cops identify him through her account and locate him. I don't think that's any different than what happened in this scenario.
I'd say that my cousin is due a solid punch in her fucking mouth.  :lol


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But, there's also the issue that DNA is far, far more intrusive than a drunken selfie at a bar. You made use of A.com. If you start getting stuff in the mail regarding medical conditions that you might have a genetic predisposition towards are you going to be happy about it?

It would depend on who was contacting me. Is it a company that paid Ancestry DNA for my info? That would irritate me seeing as my settings are currently configured to not allow third party (for advertising purposes) to use my info. If Ancestry DNA sent me something in the mail informing me that their software identified genetic markers that indicate I have a 90% chance of having testicular cancer and I should go see a specialist, I think I'd actually be happy about it. That would be worth paying for the service IMO.
My point is regarding who owns your data. You've given authority to A.com. You also volunteered it over to LEO. Your ancestors have not, though.

And this is something that's always intrigued me. Suppose you and yours decide to crank out a couple of little Chinos. Twenty years from now one of them develops and interest in larceny. Would you want him to stand a chance of being successful, or would you want him immediately caught and imprisoned?

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I'm honestly okay with them getting caught as a result of that. There are a lot of ways government can abuse privacy privileges, but this is one I don't find myself against. Maybe I'm just hazy today, but I can't really think of a way that this could really be abused. If anything, I'd rather crimes be solved with DNA matching more than any other kind of surveillance (in most situations). If they want to illegally tap your phone, or force entry into your home without a warrant, that's one thing. But if you're stupid enough to leave DNA evidence at a crime scene, you deserve what you have coming to you. I feel like it's fair game. It's not like the cops pricked you and stole your blood or hair follicles without your consent.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #242 on: April 28, 2018, 04:21:43 PM »
Maybe I'm just hazy today, but I can't really think of a way that this could really be abused. If anything, I'd rather crimes be solved with DNA matching more than any other kind of surveillance (in most situations). If they want to illegally tap your phone, or force entry into your home without a warrant, that's one thing. But if you're stupid enough to leave DNA evidence at a crime scene, you deserve what you have coming to you. I feel like it's fair game. It's not like the cops pricked you and stole your blood or hair follicles without your consent.

I read a very interesting article today about how easy it is for DNA transfer to occur.  Chino, your post popped into my head while reading it.

I agree with you that DNA matching is necessary technology for solving crimes - as well as clearing innocent people from wrongful conviction.  But it isn't without its drawbacks.  I'd be interested in your take on the article and if after reading it you still think that only stupid criminals leave DNA at crime scenes.

Granted this case presented in the article may well be extremely rare and further technological advances may make transfer DNA more discernable to LEO.  But for me, articles like this reinforce my opinion that more people should be aware of what they may be inadvertently giving away when they give up their DNA and that it may not solely impact their lives but the lives of every relative of theirs down the line.

As I mentioned earlier, my half-sister has submitted her DNA to Ancestry and is furiously working on her family tree.  She finds it exciting and a little bit like a detective solving the the case of her lineage.  I can't fault her for that.  But there is one small side of me that feels that while she has every right to do what makes her happy, my lineage and DNA are intrinsically linked to her and nowhere was I offered the opportunity to weigh in on whether or not it was ok with me that she pursue this and the knowledge that it not only impacts me, but my children and their children down the line.  On the surface it seems fine.  I have no reason to believe our lineage will harbor a serial killer or some other criminal, and like you, I would want such a person caught no matter if they were related to me or not.  But underneath the surface is a part of me that is screaming "NO" and I'm not sure exactly why at this point other than it just feels like an invasion of my privacy.

https://www.wired.com/story/dna-transfer-framed-murder/

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We leave a trail of ourselves everywhere we go.  An average person may shed upward of 50 million skin cells a day.  Attorney Erin Murphy, author of Inside the Cell, a book about forensic DNA, has calculated that in two minutes the average person sheds enough skin cells to cover a football field.  We also spew saliva, which is packed with DNA.   If we stand still and talk for 30 seconds our DNA may be found more than a yard away.  With a forceful sneeze, it might land on a nearby wall.

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #243 on: May 01, 2018, 10:49:09 AM »
I think the only part that bugs me is the fact that HE didn't sign up to A.com.  But I'm not sure that's determinative here, simply because there are ways around that.  We allow captured DNA to be compared with other, criminal databases, so comparing it to a non-criminal database ought not be that much of a stretch.
But don't you think it should be?

I go both ways on that.   I think Harmony brings up some great points here:


Realize this though - you take the test and not only can LEO access your DNA without your consent but it is possible that future generations of relatives of yours - people who haven't been born yet but generations down the line - could one day be charged with a crime simply because you wanted to learn more about your ancestors today.

But even then, I'm sort of of the opinion that my obligation is not to aid and abet my progeny.   I'd like to think that if they are going to commit a crime, I'm not the "responsible party" in their chain of events.

Not me personally (I don't think) but I'm probably more concerned with the sociological considerations that these technologies bring up. 

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As an aside, one of my half siblings took the test and now has by last count 3 likely half siblings she knew nothing about.  Seems like her dad was quite the philanderer.  Family secrets are getting shaken up, big time.  And this is only the beginning.

One of my best friends - known him for over 40 years, etc. etc. - within the last four months found out the man he thought - read: was told by his mom - was his dad was not, and that he was the product of a one-night stand his mother had while married to his presumed "dad".    It's even more complicated than that, but suffice to say that he has both relief - I know my DAD! after fifty years - and consternation - ma, WTF!. 

Offline El Barto

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Re: Privacy and anonymity
« Reply #244 on: May 01, 2018, 11:32:09 AM »

But even then, I'm sort of of the opinion that my obligation is not to aid and abet my progeny.   I'd like to think that if they are going to commit a crime, I'm not the "responsible party" in their chain of events.
This is quite a leap here. There's no responsibility or aiding and abetting just by simply not identifying your relatives to the police long before any possible crime is committed.
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