Author Topic: The Official Climate Change Thread  (Read 17424 times)

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Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #175 on: April 03, 2014, 09:12:48 PM »
Im not trying to be rude or mean...but COME ON! SERIOUSLY?

You can't even get "people"  to switch to the dollar coin by freewill. ..or the metric system for that matter!  If you can get "the people" to voluntarily accept either of those things by nothing but freewill,  i will eat my hat and apologize.

EDIT: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."  - Agent K from Men in Black

That's because the dollar coin is fucking retarded.

But it is *technically* better and more cost effective.     .........and it speaks volumes that you avoided the metric system.    :angel:
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #176 on: April 03, 2014, 09:26:58 PM »
You mention not wanting to subsidize car travel, but that to me is one of those dangerous slippery slope type things.  Religious people hate even the thought of government subsidized abortions, which is why state pushes to close down Planned Parenthood clinics right now are so effective.  I don't like Planned Parenthood and I find them dishonest, but many people (especially the economically and socially disadvantaged) rely on them for reproductive services.  Real people are getting hurt because of self-centered outrage.

Roads would still be built with gas taxes, and that's not subsidizing anything. Registration taxes could also help pay for roads, and wouldn't amount to a subsidy. And to some degree, I have no problem with subsidizing certain roads and infrastructures. Freeway system is great for national defense. It's helpeful for transportation of various kinds. But I do help pay for the roads, so it's not as if your desire to want to drive doesn't effect me, or my wallet. That's my point. That while you can argue I want to change things, and how you do things, as if that's wrong, you're also currently help decide how things work out for me. It's not a very good argument, is what I'm saying.

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The reality of living under a government is that you aren't going to like everything is pays for.  Maybe I don't want the government paying for more public transportation.  But, I'm not going to get mad if that's what voters want.

Where did I ever say you can't do that? Or imply that I'm mad? I think it's wrong-headed, and I'm going to vote how I vote, and try to convince you how to vote.

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A lot of what I said is true for everyone. I can say this, because of basic human physiology. Moderate and sane excercise is good for your health, and it is good for your mood.

Aren't there other ways of encouraging this than altering our transportation infrastructure?

How is walking or biking changing the infrastructure in a dramatic way? HSR and such don't seem appropriate for the part you quoted, cause it's about exercise and such.

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I'd consider it if it were time effective and less expensive.  It's cost me more to take the train than to go by car just in terms of gas money.  Not accounting for necessary taxi rides and the increased travel time.

Which is why I want to make it better. So it's more time effective and less expensive.

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For the purposes of this thought-experiment, it's environmentally friendly.  Not something like Lithium-ion with a terrible downside.

Okay. I immediately run into chemical and thermodynamical problems which make it seem extremely unlikely that any such technology is anywhere on the horizon. Meanwhile, we have hydrogen, we have wind, we have solar, we hydro, we have biomass and biofuels. We can use those tomorrow.

In the very unlikely scenario where this technology actually comes to be, well ya, I'd be happy about it. But that's not at all what we're talking about, or what might be coming onto the market.

Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #177 on: April 04, 2014, 03:43:50 AM »
Im not trying to be rude or mean...but COME ON! SERIOUSLY?

You can't even get "people"  to switch to the dollar coin by freewill. ..or the metric system for that matter!  If you can get "the people" to voluntarily accept either of those things by nothing but freewill,  i will eat my hat and apologize.

EDIT: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."  - Agent K from Men in Black

That's because the dollar coin is fucking retarded.

But it is *technically* better and more cost effective.     .........and it speaks volumes that you avoided the metric system.    :angel:


I absolutely love the metric system and wish we'd convert. I didn't challenge it because I agree with you. I went after the dollar coin because that was fresh on the mind. Two weeks ago I went to Boston and needed a round trip (is that what it's called?) subway ticket. I put a twenty in the machine and got 15 of those dollar coins back as change. Fifteen of those fuckers jingling around in my pocket! I unloaded them on those black guys that do their dancing/comedy routine outside Quincy Market.  The most cost effective way would be to do away with physical currency all together.

I'd also like to point out that accepting a new form of currency for economic value is much different than accepting something that improves the well being of everyone on this planet. The coin dollar may be "*technically* better and more cost effective", but sticking with the original dollar really doesn't do anything other than cost the tax payer a little bit more per year. Ignoring the overwhelming amounts of data indicating that we are on a path of making our descendants' lives a living hell is a different story.

All this talk about how this keystone pipeline will create jobs makes me sick. As if that's the real reason it's being proposed in the first place. It's a bullshit talking point to sucker people in to believing it's a good idea. Talk about selfish. In two hundred years, I'm sure the 8 billion people on this planet are going to say "It sucks that the Earth is burning to a crisp, the majority of food needs to be engineered and grown in labs, and our oceans are in turmoil, but hey, look on the bright side. At least in 2015 a few thousand Americans got temporary construction jobs".
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 06:59:00 AM by Chino »

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #178 on: April 04, 2014, 06:44:49 AM »
Im not trying to be rude or mean...but COME ON! SERIOUSLY?

You can't even get "people"  to switch to the dollar coin by freewill. ..or the metric system for that matter!  If you can get "the people" to voluntarily accept either of those things by nothing but freewill,  i will eat my hat and apologize.

EDIT: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."  - Agent K from Men in Black

That's because the dollar coin is fucking retarded.

But it is *technically* better and more cost effective.     .........and it speaks volumes that you avoided the metric system.    :angel:


I absolutely love the metric system and wish we'd convert. I didn't challenge it because I agree with you. I went after the dollar coin because that was fresh on the mind. Two weeks ago I went to Boston and needed a round trip (is that what it's called?) subway ticket. I put a twenty in the machine and got 15 of those dollar coins back as change. Fifteen of those fuckers jingling around in my pocket! I unloaded them on those black guys that do their dancing/comedy routine outside Quincy Market.  The most cost effective way would be to do away with physical currency all together.

I'd also like to point out that accepting a new form of currency for economic value is much different than accepting something that improves the well being of everyone on this planet. The coin dollar may be "*technically* better and more cost effective", but sticking with the original dollar really doesn't do anything other than cost the tax payer a little bit more per year. Ignoring the overwhelming amounts of data indicating that we are on a path of making our descendants' lives a living hell is a different story.

All this talk about how this keystone pipeline will create jobs makes me sick. As if that's the real reason it's being proposed in the first place. It's a bullshit talking point to sucker people in to believing it's a good idea. Talk about selfish. In two hundred years, I'm sure the 8 billion people on this planet are going to say "It sucks that the Earth is burning to a crisp, the majority of food needs to me engineered and grown in labs, and our oceans are in turmoil, but hey, look on the bright side. At least in 2015 a few thousand Americans got temporary construction jobs".

Pretty much all of this. And it's not like it really creates that many more domestic jobs anyway. Not nearly as many as comprehensive infrastructural reform would, both skilled and otherwise.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #179 on: April 04, 2014, 09:19:36 AM »
Okay....So, it snowed here in New Mexico yesterday....carry on.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #180 on: April 04, 2014, 12:23:29 PM »
That while you can argue I want to change things, and how you do things, as if that's wrong, you're also currently help decide how things work out for me.

That's politics though.  You can't take it personally.

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How is walking or biking changing the infrastructure in a dramatic way?
Right now, biking in my area is tough because the sidewalks are so inconsistent and a lot of the shoulders are just too thin.  I have to imagine that other parts of the country are impractical to ride bike in.

And if you want more walking, you have to make covering the distance practical by adding more public transportation.  Walking in New York is fine because public transportation can get you within walking distance of anything efficiently.  This isn't true for most of the country.  I was in a city a couple days ago and saw a dude calling a Taxi.  You can't expect people as a whole to do this.

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Okay. I immediately run into chemical and thermodynamical problems which make it seem extremely unlikely that any such technology is anywhere on the horizon. Meanwhile, we have hydrogen, we have wind, we have solar, we hydro, we have biomass and biofuels. We can use those tomorrow.

In the very unlikely scenario where this technology actually comes to be, well ya, I'd be happy about it. But that's not at all what we're talking about, or what might be coming onto the market.

I can't get on board with this.  Technology has grown too fast in too many ways that are too astounding.  To look at clean energy cars and say "that's the one thing that won't advance" is arguing against human history.
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Offline Implode

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #181 on: April 04, 2014, 06:22:40 PM »
Okay....So, it snowed here in New Mexico yesterday....carry on.


Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #182 on: April 05, 2014, 11:39:41 AM »
That while you can argue I want to change things, and how you do things, as if that's wrong, you're also currently help decide how things work out for me.

That's politics though.  You can't take it personally.

Huh? I maybe wrote it badly. You're complaint about me wanting to "re-engineer" society is hypocritical becuase you already want to "engineer" society one way. That's my point, and you see to agree. But add that I'm taking it personally, and I'm not sure if that's from the way I write, projection, or a combination of boht.

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How is walking or biking changing the infrastructure in a dramatic way?
Right now, biking in my area is tough because the sidewalks are so inconsistent and a lot of the shoulders are just too thin.  I have to imagine that other parts of the country are impractical to ride bike in.

And if you want more walking, you have to make covering the distance practical by adding more public transportation.  Walking in New York is fine because public transportation can get you within walking distance of anything efficiently.  This isn't true for most of the country.  I was in a city a couple days ago and saw a dude calling a Taxi.  You can't expect people as a whole to do this.

Ya. What's your point though, that things have to change? You also continue to act as if I'm saying eliminate car use entirely. Which is not, has never, been what I've been arguing for, and any point based upon that is a complete strawman. SO the fuck what if some poeple will call a taxi every now and then. Why should that prevent you from riding a bike, wanting better bike lanes, walking, wanting better sidewalks, or taking subways and buses, and wnating better of them?

And I'm not saying all of this can be done overnight, or necessarily even very quickly. Some of it requires years of work. People have to mentally adjust to wanting to live differently, and demanding those changes in how they live. And the goverment, and the way it currently incentivizes things (and incentivization is not bad) helps continue this system. We have to adjust that government to help make the changes possible.

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Okay. I immediately run into chemical and thermodynamical problems which make it seem extremely unlikely that any such technology is anywhere on the horizon. Meanwhile, we have hydrogen, we have wind, we have solar, we hydro, we have biomass and biofuels. We can use those tomorrow.

In the very unlikely scenario where this technology actually comes to be, well ya, I'd be happy about it. But that's not at all what we're talking about, or what might be coming onto the market.

I can't get on board with this.  Technology has grown too fast in too many ways that are too astounding.  To look at clean energy cars and say "that's the one thing that won't advance" is arguing against human history.

Who ever said anything about clean energy cars? We're talking about electrical cars. And I don't mean to be rude, but this sentiment is extraodinarily naive. It's like people 50 years ago saying we're going to have hover/fying cars. There are rules and laws to obey, and to say otherwise is unscientific.


Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #183 on: April 05, 2014, 01:26:29 PM »
Not to mention that those "newer" and "better" technology, when they come to the market, will be just as expensive as solar, wind, and electric once were. It's called markets of scale, and it's inevitable with any technology; any attempt to use that as an excuse to not implement any interim developments is just that: an excuse for procrastination that will cost us dearly.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #184 on: May 12, 2014, 02:08:18 PM »
According to NASA, Antarctic melting has officially reached what's called the point of no return. Welp, looks like we best get on with the geoengineering technology (carbon sequestration and all that).
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 02:14:28 PM by Super Dude »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #185 on: May 12, 2014, 06:22:46 PM »
 Grow trees. Roots sequester carbon. Turn lignin into durable products, you can even get methane out of several processes, reform methane into carbon, use in stuff like carbon nanotubes, and the excess hydrogen can be used as a fuel and turned into electricity. Carbon negative energy production.

Can also capture the CO2 and sequester more artificially. This is all technology and know how we have, so it's very feasible.

Now to just get the 99%  to spend their vast wealth to do this, and redistribute wealth.

Fuck, that last step...

Offline Grizz

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #186 on: May 12, 2014, 06:37:06 PM »
I was reading a while back in Discover or Make or something about an algae that absorbs the carbon from the air, and its byproduct can be refined into both carbon that could be stored underground and a clean-burning oil.
Now if only we could get that going on a mass scale...
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #187 on: May 12, 2014, 06:52:42 PM »
That's all algae, not just certain kinds.  And fuel cells that run on algae have been in development for years. The reason is not economic, and it's not scientific; it's political. All cars could run on algae, but oil barons won't stand for it. That's why they spent all of 1998 killing the electric car.
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Offline Lucien

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #188 on: May 12, 2014, 07:30:42 PM »
That's all algae, not just certain kinds.  And fuel cells that run on algae have been in development for years. The reason is not economic, and it's not scientific; it's political. All cars could run on algae, but oil barons won't stand for it. That's why they spent all of 1998 killing the electric car.

*sigh*  :facepalm:

I hate how industry works sometimes. People want to get money through innovation and progression, but those who gain the money at waypoints want to keep their money, so they keep innovation from happening with their money.

Therefore money makes progression and also takes away progression. It's rather annoying. If the innovation is already there, and the oil barons are truly the only ones in the way, there should be some enormous penalty, as in effect the oil barons are destroying the world.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #189 on: May 12, 2014, 07:55:21 PM »
You would think they ought to face some penalty, but right now they have 75% of the United States believing climate change doesn't even exist, let alone that oil is to blame. It's no coincidence that the primary source for the climate denial camp is the Heartland Institute, funded almost exclusively by oil barons the Koch brothers.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #190 on: May 12, 2014, 08:15:09 PM »
That's all algae, not just certain kinds.  And fuel cells that run on algae have been in development for years. The reason is not economic, and it's not scientific; it's political. All cars could run on algae, but oil barons won't stand for it. That's why they spent all of 1998 killing the electric car.

Return in energy is complicated with bioenergy, and isn't as energy dense as fossil fuel. It is economical, to some degree.

Offline Lucien

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #191 on: May 12, 2014, 08:22:42 PM »
You would think they ought to face some penalty, but right now they have 75% of the United States believing climate change doesn't even exist, let alone that oil is to blame. It's no coincidence that the primary source for the climate denial camp is the Heartland Institute, funded almost exclusively by oil barons the Koch brothers.

I still don't get why people would deny it, other than just because. It's certainly not a Christian thing, though for some reason I thought it was at a time, and the issue itself is rather bipartisan if I remember correctly.

So, how do we fix it? We shouldn't just sit here talking about impending doom when it doesn't have to be inevitable. There needs to be some change.

So I suppose that is the new topic of discussion. How can we change the people and turn against the big oil corporations, for the benefit of the planet and it's inhabitants?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #192 on: May 12, 2014, 08:56:08 PM »
Buy a Congressman.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #193 on: May 12, 2014, 09:48:50 PM »
You would think they ought to face some penalty, but right now they have 75% of the United States believing climate change doesn't even exist, let alone that oil is to blame. It's no coincidence that the primary source for the climate denial camp is the Heartland Institute, funded almost exclusively by oil barons the Koch brothers.

I still don't get why people would deny it, other than just because. It's certainly not a Christian thing, though for some reason I thought it was at a time, and the issue itself is rather bipartisan if I remember correctly.

So, how do we fix it? We shouldn't just sit here talking about impending doom when it doesn't have to be inevitable. There needs to be some change.

So I suppose that is the new topic of discussion. How can we change the people and turn against the big oil corporations, for the benefit of the planet and it's inhabitants?

In my opinion:

Change what you consider economical and why. Realize that the cheapest thing now, isn't generally the best quality tomorrow. Biofuels and biomass may cost more, and that's going to be due in part to chemistry and the physical laws of the Universe, but it also helps the local economy and provides people with meaningful, important jobs. On top of that, examine your own life, and when you use energy, why you use it, and how you can change those habits. Transportation is a huge part of that, it's ~20-25% of our overall energy use. Conservation is a major aspect of a sustainable economy, because it lowers the demand, thereby making is easier, and cheaper, for renewable to provide us with what we need.

Unfortunately, only the government can afford to do some of the things necessary. Private investors expect a 10% return on their investment, if not more. That makes funding something like a EGS geothermal plant very hard to do. If no return on the investment was expected, or even just a lower return rate, then the economics become much more favorable. Whereas the first paragraph is about you changing what you consider economical, this is about what we as a society consider economical as well. There are many sustainable and renewable ventures out there that will make more money than is put into them, and return more energy than is required to make them, but they just don't provide enough for people to risk their money in.

It's basically a rearrangement of our entire economics. With the way we conceive of and operate economically, fossil fuels automatically win. It's unrealistic to say stop using fossil fuels, or to take complete control of your food supply. But if everyone pushes in the same direction, it makes it easier for everyone else, until things really just start to change.

As for arguments, don't even ever mention climate change. You don't have to. If someone wants to be obtuse and refuse to accept the overwhelming science of climate change, just avoid the issue, and talk about cleaner air, cleaner water, more local jobs, more local self-reliance (no need to import oil from people we don't generally get along with too well, thereby propping up assholes, thereby inspiring hatred against us in the world), and basically just the better world that would be created.




Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #194 on: May 13, 2014, 04:55:59 AM »
Although I must say that it does help that thanks to economies of scale, solar panels and electric cars are much, much more affordable today than they were even two or three years ago. I was talking to my dad about this the other day actually, who back in 2010 was considering solar panels for this roof. Back then the cost was enormous, and it would've taken 20 years of solar panel use to break even. In 2012, that timespan was reduced to 7 years - cut by more than half in two years.

The reason I believe the problem is purely political is because these alternative clean energies are more affordable than ever, yet our elected leaders have a majority of the country convinced that climate change is a Marxist conspiracy and we'll lose jobs and money by the bucket loads if we so much as suggest we might adopt some form of renewable infrastructure.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #195 on: May 13, 2014, 08:33:30 AM »
For solar panels, a lot of that is also due to advancement in technologies. Like every day, you can read about some new advancement and improvement. Solar panels are also made from readily available resources, so their mass use shouldn't be terribly problematic.

The break even analysis is also susceptible to local electrical prices. Even a small change in price  can have  pretty dramatic effects on when a technology is considered to break even. Up here in the Northwest, we have a lot of hydro, due to our geology. It keeps electrical prices low, which discourages investments in renewable, as it increases their "break even" point.

Which is why I think we need to re-evaluate what we consider economical. I don't get why we want to compare it to a polluting and horrible technology which we want to get beyond.

Still, it's a little more complicated than that, and I think electrical cars have been over-hyped. Batteries, even fuel cells, require catalysts and rare-earths that don't come easy, and are limited in supply. IIRC all the lithium in the world couldn't power everyone in a car, and that's ignoring other uses for lithium. This plays into solar as well, because you ideally have a way to store the energy. Lead-acid batteries are well-known, but they need replacing and, well, they have lead in them. The other option is to tie solar panels to the grid, but this requires a huge infrastructure to deal with variable renewables, and is something we're only working towards at the moment. Even if you want to use solar panels to electrolyze water (which I'm a fan of), you need water, which might be hard to get by in a world with increasingly scarce water resources.

To the extent that it's technological, it's not economical. To the extent that it's technological, it's not "economical."

I mean, I think we could be doing a lot more as a country, and as a government, to move towards renewable. But the answer is not as simple as everyone putting up solar panels or driving electric cars. Solar panels are a big part, but internal combustion engines will probably dominate transportation forever. They'll just need to be fueled by bio-fuels, or hydrogen (with water still being an issue).

And I agree with you completely about the political landscape. It's corrupt, and the only reason we're not doing more is because of financial interests buying off politicians.

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #196 on: May 13, 2014, 01:25:15 PM »
Despite the level of corrpution and money to be made by those in power to keep us burning fossil fuels....I think we've come a long way in a short time as a Country. We've cut greenhouse gas emmissions consistently over the past 20 + years and even the engines/motors that are burning fuel are more efficient and emmit less pollution. But I  think the problem is that until you can get countries like India and China to make the same type of commitment to the environment it won't matter one little bit how much America cuts it's usage. Those two countries alone continue to add coal burning plants as we are eliminating them. China adds something like 10 coal plants to every one we shut down.

 I can agree that it certainly doesn't help our environment the amount of fossil fuels we as a species burn up. And it really is ridiculous that we as a species still use them given the technologies we have. That's obviously where the greed and corruption come in to play and keep them in play. But, I do not believe that 'global warming' is entirely based on mankind's pollution or 'contributions'. For as much as those variables come in to play I think it's just as equally part of the natural life cycle of our planet.....an entity that for as much as we know about it we should understand that we don't know much about it at all.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #197 on: May 13, 2014, 02:08:54 PM »
We've not cut nearly enough greenhouse gas emissions over the last 20 years. If in the 1990s we had a C-, we now have a C+. Clean coal is an oxymoron (and frankly a load of bull), and natural gas helps some, but not nearly enough for how deep in shit we are now. I'm sorry, but we have to do better than that, and the EU right now is collectively leaving us in the dust.

And as for the India-China bit, blaming them doesn't matter a hill of beans if we're just as bad as them. Being a leader in clean energy means finally having an area where we can wave our dick around again, so why not use actual climate goals that we will have reached in order to pressure them into compliance?

On the subject of man-made changes not being the only contribution, you're (partially) right - fossil fuel burning only comprises about 90% of the reason climate change is happening today. From the methane of our cows to the carbon of our cars, we're not entirely the reason, just mostly the reason. The fact is the greenhouse gas levels and global temperatures do rise and fall on their own, but those are usually very gradual, very minimal, and on the order of centuries. In the space of a century and a half, we've increased greenhouse gases and global temperatures more than the warming period that lasted from 950-1250 CE, and even that was because China was doing then what we're doing now.

Also, because it's recently become relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg (John Oliver on how the scientific consensus on man-made climate change is so overwhelming that this is beginning to look like the Flat Earth debate)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 02:16:26 PM by Super Dude »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #198 on: May 13, 2014, 10:04:46 PM »
Despite the level of corrpution and money to be made by those in power to keep us burning fossil fuels....I think we've come a long way in a short time as a Country. We've cut greenhouse gas emmissions consistently over the past 20 + years and even the engines/motors that are burning fuel are more efficient and emmit less pollution. But I  think the problem is that until you can get countries like India and China to make the same type of commitment to the environment it won't matter one little bit how much America cuts it's usage. Those two countries alone continue to add coal burning plants as we are eliminating them. China adds something like 10 coal plants to every one we shut down.

Well, we could make some inroads by stop exporting so much coal to China.

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I can agree that it certainly doesn't help our environment the amount of fossil fuels we as a species burn up. And it really is ridiculous that we as a species still use them given the technologies we have. That's obviously where the greed and corruption come in to play and keep them in play. But, I do not believe that 'global warming' is entirely based on mankind's pollution or 'contributions'. For as much as those variables come in to play I think it's just as equally part of the natural life cycle of our planet.....an entity that for as much as we know about it we should understand that we don't know much about it at all.

We understand the carbon cycle pretty damn well. It's a complex system that may not behave as we might think, but increasing CO2 concentrations will undeniably increase CO2 concentrations. It's a matter of when, not if. Instead of looking at any lulls and counteracting forces as counter-examples, we should be taking advantage of the extra time they might buy us. Because really, if we truly don't know that much, we shouldn't be screwing with it. Do that in any other situation in your life and you'd be called stupid.


Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #199 on: May 14, 2014, 05:20:50 AM »
I think it's rather telling (and rather scary) that in recent weeks, all of the climate watch organizations, including the IPCC, have all said their conservative estimates were way off. Even now, 40 years before something was supposed to start happening, things have turned out way worse than we originally thought. That's why I vote we skip right ahead to the carbon sequestration; desperate times call for desperate measures.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #200 on: May 14, 2014, 03:02:02 PM »
Well the mayans knew a change was going to occur within the Earth ans entire universe. I consider myself Fortunate and Lucky to be alive at this moment.
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Offline Grizz

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #201 on: May 14, 2014, 03:08:57 PM »
The Mayans didn't know anything except that perhaps carving 5126 years into a calendar was just a tad excessive.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #202 on: May 14, 2014, 03:59:29 PM »
How did we get to the Mayans?
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #203 on: May 14, 2014, 07:42:54 PM »
How did we get to the Mayans?

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #204 on: May 15, 2014, 01:31:42 PM »
We'll be going Solar later this year at the NoseHair home.  I've got a contact for a pretty sweet deal on it.  Zero out-of-pocket cost for us and it's supposed to save us up to 70% off our current utility bill.  I've always been a firm believer in the old saying "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."  So, I'll remain pretty skeptical about this until I actually see a proposal in writing, but my brother-in-law is currently in the process of doing it, using the same company.  That way I will know what to expect when we do ours.




Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #205 on: May 15, 2014, 08:39:38 PM »
We'll be going Solar later this year at the NoseHair home.  I've got a contact for a pretty sweet deal on it.  Zero out-of-pocket cost for us and it's supposed to save us up to 70% off our current utility bill.  I've always been a firm believer in the old saying "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."  So, I'll remain pretty skeptical about this until I actually see a proposal in writing, but my brother-in-law is currently in the process of doing it, using the same company.  That way I will know what to expect when we do ours.

This is becoming pretty popular. From what I understand, there is some sort of meter on your house that measures the excess power your panels produce. You'd normally be able to report this and get a rebate from the government for going green. Well, companies are now starting to install the system for free under the stipulation that they get those rebates as compensation. They end up making more on that over the years than they would had you paid them for the system up front. It's pretty brilliant. Good choice.

Offline Grizz

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #206 on: May 15, 2014, 09:15:00 PM »
I thought that excess power just went into the grid and wound back your meter.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2014, 06:12:36 AM »
I thought that excess power just went into the grid and wound back your meter.

I think that's what I'm talking about. Your house contributes to the grid. The grid gets whatever your house doesn't use. The government will compensate you for owning something that gives power to the grid. With these deals, the solar companies get that compensation. 

Offline Grizz

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2014, 09:09:43 PM »
The grid is privately owned; local just lowers your net power usage and cuts back your bill.
My school put in a natural gas fuel cell a couple years back. Not sure how helpful that is though, as the companies all hopped aboard the natural gas train and found a way to make that inexpensive and ecologically dangerous (fracking).
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Threaduir
« Reply #209 on: May 17, 2014, 02:55:02 PM »
The grid is privately owned; local just lowers your net power usage and cuts back your bill.
My school put in a natural gas fuel cell a couple years back. Not sure how helpful that is though, as the companies all hopped aboard the natural gas train and found a way to make that inexpensive and ecologically dangerous (fracking).

Most utilities are required to purchase small scale power generation such as solar panels. You can get money for it, but it all depends upon where you live. Up here in Montana, you can install up to 10MW of so wind power and the utility must purchase it.