Author Topic: The Official Climate Change Thread  (Read 19443 times)

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Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #140 on: April 02, 2014, 01:00:01 AM »
When I'm working (as a construction electrician)...there are a few jobs where I can just leave a tool bag on site and take my smaller care to and from the site.

However...my last job was doing service work.   Forget it.  I pretty much *have* to have an entire workshop completely mobilized as much as humanly possible.   If Petco's lights go out at 10pm, I have no idea what I'm going to need....so my van becomes a "mobile shop" as much as is reasonably possible.    Sometimes Home Depot needs a new circuit and I have to travel two hours to the north end of the state line...and I'm going to need all my tools, all the materials...and my "mobile shop" in case anything goes wrong. 

There really is nothing but my Ford E-250 (or some variant) that is going to cut it.   It gets 10mph...and it has to take a lot of heavy equipment hundreds of miles a week...literally. 
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #141 on: April 02, 2014, 05:33:57 AM »
Well you were paying attention to what people were saying about the use of motor vehicles for specialized use, right? That is, specialized uses such as yours. But if you're taking the wife out to a movie, why not walk or bike? Or if it's really that far, use a subway?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2014, 09:28:15 AM »
The problem with bio-diesel is that it doesn't end up providing a net benefit, because agriculture is also energy- and water-intensive.  It's ultimately a scam meant to subsidize farmers.

It's going to depend upon what feed stock you're using, and the exact design laid out, but generally speaking, I would say that biodiesel definitly does provide a net energy gain. Corn ethanol? Yes, I'd agree with you. But Soybean diesel is completely different, and a lot of other chemicals and commodities can come as byproducts, which save energy use elsewhere.

It also depehds on if you're talking about using stover or using an energy crop itself. If you're using residues, and what might otherwise be waste, and you're talking about a huge LCA improvement for the entire system.

In fact, the EROE for biodiesel can be higher than for that of the Alberta Tar Sands. Which is valued so highly, that people want to ship it thousands of miles by pipe, spend millions on it to try and be able to do it, and frequently lie and buy off politicians.

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The ideal transportation network would be a mix of HSR for medium/long distance travel (up to 1500 km or so), traditional rail for regional travel, BRT/tram/subway for intracity, and bike for primary personal use.  Supplemented by car/truck sharing programs and limited air travel.

The thing about the automobile is that it is undeniably flexible in its use, as Reapsta points out.  However this means that people own and use vehicles not suited for everyday use but for specialist tasks, like hauling large, heavy loads.  So you have people that live in the 'burbs and maybe do that once or twice a year driving F-150s, or people driving SUVs because they might have to haul seven people around one day.

I'd mostly agree with this, but I would add a lot more actual car/truck ownership and acknowledgement of legitimate and valuable use.

JD's talkin about living in the NW. I live in Montana. I love riding a bike, but it's not safe for a bit of the year. I love how little people there are here,  but it makes it uneconmomical to do rail systems, and even our bus system isn't very applicable. And all the towns around here, helping grow the food you eat, probably aren't going to get high speed rails through their town anytime soon. They need a way of transporting themselves, even if it's jsut to the HSR to go somewhere else. But tractors aren't going to run themselves, and food isn't going to get to the market on its own.

In any case, that ignores what can and should be done tomorrow. Even to build those HSR, you're going to need to use fuels. Why not make that fuel bio-based, sustainable and carbon neutral, and an investment in our local economies?

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2014, 07:02:44 PM »
Well you were paying attention to what people were saying about the use of motor vehicles for specialized use, right? That is, specialized uses such as yours. But if you're taking the wife out to a movie, why not walk or bike? Or if it's really that far, use a subway?

To tell you the truth, I would love this idea.   But there is no subway system in the area we live.    I would love it if the northwest had a train system set up like the NE states...but we only just got our *first* public train put in about 10 years ago....and it was extremely controversial.  Then a second train got built and put in about 5 years ago to even more controversy.      Both trains essentially only serve the Interstate 5 corridor going too and from Seattle.....even though fully half of the areas population live on the eastern side of Lake Washington.   For those people, you can take a very crowded bus, or drive.   Some die hard people bike (there is a bike lane on the bridge) but it is not a short or easy bike ride.  You have to be in pretty good shape to make it....and if it's stormy, the waves from the lake can make biking across the bridge impossible.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2014, 07:36:46 PM »
Or maybe the earlier adoption of more biking would make the "pretty good shape" part a non-issue. Is it any wonder the US is looked at as the fat capital of the world, especially in comparison to Europe and Japan?

Anyway, the lack of subway and train infrastructure is pretty much the point; we should be supporting this stuff because of how much more efficient it would be, the money our municipalities and states would save not having to constantly invest in roads and freeways (not to mention if a driver like you ends up being one of the few who has to have a car because of specialized job needs, think about how much that'll cut down the commute), the pocket change you'll save charging up a train pass rather than filling up your tank, etc.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2014, 07:56:48 PM »
Ironically enough...I just started a new job today.  A job that is *extremely* rare in the construction industry.   One where I leave all my tools at the shop which is smack in the heart of downtown Seattle, and then all the jobs are *just* tenant improvement jobs in a six block radius of the shop....that's *all* they do.   So all I have to do is just show up, and then roll all my tools around in a cart for a block or two to the job site.

If this job lasts, I'll just be bringing my body in on the train every day.  (however, I still have a 30-45 minute drive just to get to the train station...because, as I stated, I live on the east side)
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #146 on: April 02, 2014, 09:05:15 PM »
Good for you, man. :tup

But seriously, pollution and crap aside, I just find I like public transportation cities a lot more than places where you have to drive everywhere. I feel in places like that like I'm living in my car. If more people can just voice that sort of preference, we might move into a post-car world a lot faster (I do believe it's possible, as much as it's necessary).
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #147 on: April 02, 2014, 09:33:05 PM »
If I lived in a place like New York I'd never drive anywhere.  It's too hard.  The public transportation is too good.

I live in the suburbs though, so that's not a feasible choice.

The theme in you and Schaevo's posts that I find very hard to digest is that you seem to think I should want to not drive.  From a personal standpoint, driving just yields so many benefits.  Because I live in an area with okay at best public transportation, simply not having to plan my life around it is a huge benefit.  And, even if the planning works out, the time is a problem too.  I can drive to my friend up the street's house in five minutes.  I can walk there in, I'd guess, an hour and a half to two hours.  I'm not sure if the bus even goes there.  And, I guess I have to admit this, I've never learned to ride a bike.

So, from a personal lifestyle standpoint, why should I want to make a decision that's crippling in terms of time management?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #148 on: April 02, 2014, 10:27:23 PM »
Because that lifestyle choice of yours is part of a system that negatively effects all of us. And that's true even if you don't want to acknowledge anthropogenic global warming.

Plus, it's not really crippling. When I drive to work, it's ~15 minutes. When I bike, its ~20 minutes. It's a 4 mile trip, almost on the opposite side of the cityI live in. I save a crapton of money, I get exercise, feel better - oh, and I don't pollute a god awful amount, require oil to be pumped from beneath surface, shipped across the globe, and huge investments in national affairs (i.e. wars) to get the access.

In my opinion, you *should* not want to drive. The system should be better set up so that it's not so desirable (i.e. shorter distances, higher (more accurate) fuel costs, less roads, etc), but more than that, I think you should re-evaluate your values. Say it takes you 10-15 more mins by bike, so what? Why is the only important metric the little bit of extra time? There are a ton of other things you could consider, and focusing simply on the time is wrong, in my opinion.


Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #149 on: April 02, 2014, 11:05:06 PM »
Because that lifestyle choice of yours is part of a system that negatively effects all of us. And that's true even if you don't want to acknowledge anthropogenic global warming.

Why?  Let's leave global warming out of this.  Let's say, tomorrow, they invent a fuel cell that can cleanly power cars.  How does my decision to drive hurt society?

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There are a ton of other things you could consider, and focusing simply on the time is wrong, in my opinion.

Time is the single most valuable thing we have.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:11:35 PM by ReaPsTA »
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #150 on: April 02, 2014, 11:48:01 PM »
Because that lifestyle choice of yours is part of a system that negatively effects all of us. And that's true even if you don't want to acknowledge anthropogenic global warming.

Why?  Let's leave global warming out of this.  Let's say, tomorrow, they invent a fuel cell that can cleanly power cars.  How does my decision to drive hurt society?

I frankly don't see how that is relevant at all. The car you're driving doesn't cleanly power itself. I don't really see how hypotheticals matter, when what we're talking about is practical solutions to actual problems.

And we have fuel cells that cleanly power cars. They run on hydrogen. It's a very old technology, and it can use solar and wind power to split the oxygen and hydrogen in water. But really, it's almost just as simple to just retrofit and adapt internal combustion engines to use hydrogen. Storage is possibly an issue, but then again, you could just fill up more often. At some point, though, water becomes an issue. It's preferable to have pure water, to prevent corrosion of an anode/cathode. That could become a real stickler, especially when a lot of the country is suffering from droughts (hard not to bring climate change in here).

Instead of money going to more important things, that benefit the greater good, public money is often put towards the construction of roads and other amenities for cars. This takes up a lot of resources, and causes pollution. If you walked, or used mass transit, resources could be put to better, and more economical use. If you get out for a gentle bike ride frequently, you'll probably be in better health, in turn using the healthcare system less, thereby decreasing demand, reducing costs and improving access.


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There are a ton of other things you could consider, and focusing simply on the time is wrong, in my opinion.

Time is the single most valuable thing we have.

I agree, which is why I want to enjoy the time that I do have. Riding a bike or walking is much more enjoyable than driving a car. I've never heard of anyone having "walking rage," and that's for a reason. I massively enjoy getting on my bike and going somewhere. It feels great, and I feel more connected with the city around me. And, as I keep harping on, since it's good for my health, and it makes me more content and happy, it will probably add more quality years of time to my life.

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #151 on: April 03, 2014, 01:02:31 AM »
What percentage of transportation do you envision personal cars taking up in this ideal system you're proposing? 

When we're just talking about getting to work and back, sure, public transportation can be a very practical solution.  But I think you're too easily dismissing or not considering the myriad ways people use their vehicles for more than just "people transport". People go camping, go on vacation, etc.  How else am I supposed to transport my telescope when I want to get out of town at night? 
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Offline Implode

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #152 on: April 03, 2014, 01:55:07 AM »
The car is the ultimate consumer good in a society built completely on consumerism; it's not going anywhere.

That said, I agree with you that we need far more public transport options here.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #153 on: April 03, 2014, 05:45:49 AM »
What percentage of transportation do you envision personal cars taking up in this ideal system you're proposing? 

When we're just talking about getting to work and back, sure, public transportation can be a very practical solution.  But I think you're too easily dismissing or not considering the myriad ways people use their vehicles for more than just "people transport". People go camping, go on vacation, etc.  How else am I supposed to transport my telescope when I want to get out of town at night?

Umm...use a suitcase? It's not like public transportation hasn't contemplated situations like that. How do you fly your telescope anywhere?
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Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #154 on: April 03, 2014, 05:51:27 AM »
oh man you lost me there. Driving is one of the most enjoyable things in the world! The only thing that stresses out is the time crunch. If people just left earlier and took the time to enjoy the drive it's actually one of the most amazingly enjoyable things on earth.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #155 on: April 03, 2014, 05:59:10 AM »
So "boring" transportation vs. weather and natural disasters of biblical proportions...you choose weather and natural disasters of biblical proportions?
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #156 on: April 03, 2014, 07:19:19 AM »
What percentage of transportation do you envision personal cars taking up in this ideal system you're proposing? 

When we're just talking about getting to work and back, sure, public transportation can be a very practical solution.  But I think you're too easily dismissing or not considering the myriad ways people use their vehicles for more than just "people transport". People go camping, go on vacation, etc.  How else am I supposed to transport my telescope when I want to get out of town at night?

Umm...use a suitcase? It's not like public transportation hasn't contemplated situations like that. How do you fly your telescope anywhere?

I'm about to pull the trigger on this. Can't exactly fit it in a briefcase.

http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes/dobsonian-telescopes/zhumellz12deluxedobsonianreflectortelescope.cfm

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #157 on: April 03, 2014, 07:24:46 AM »
I don't get it. I can't get the scale of it from that picture.
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #158 on: April 03, 2014, 07:31:13 AM »
It's over 5ft tall.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #159 on: April 03, 2014, 07:32:26 AM »
Ah. Well in that case I'm not sure it'd fit into a car that easily either. Not unless it comes apart, in which case you could break it up, put it in a suitcase, and take it on a train anyway. And suitcases come in more sizes than your standard clothing briefcase - ever seen those funky ones for golf bags?
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #160 on: April 03, 2014, 08:20:24 AM »
Let's leave global warming out of this.  Let's say, tomorrow, they invent a fuel cell that can cleanly power cars.  How does my decision to drive hurt society?

I frankly don't see how that is relevant at all. The car you're driving doesn't cleanly power itself. I don't really see how hypotheticals matter, when what we're talking about is practical solutions to actual problems.

You wrote this:

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Because that lifestyle choice of yours is part of a system that negatively effects all of us. And that's true even if you don't want to acknowledge anthropogenic global warming.

It was the even if I didn't cause global warming part I found interesting.

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Instead of money going to more important things, that benefit the greater good, public money is often put towards the construction of roads and other amenities for cars. This takes up a lot of resources, and causes pollution.

Don't you think that building a new public transportation infrastructure in the 4th largest country in the world by area would cause a lot of pollution?

Quote
If you walked, or used mass transit, resources could be put to better, and more economical use. If you get out for a gentle bike ride frequently, you'll probably be in better health, in turn using the healthcare system less, thereby decreasing demand, reducing costs and improving access.

This argument, from what I can tell, is fair.  But, I also don't see how it justifies re-engineering American society.

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I agree, which is why I want to enjoy the time that I do have. Riding a bike or walking is much more enjoyable than driving a car. I've never heard of anyone having "walking rage," and that's for a reason. I massively enjoy getting on my bike and going somewhere. It feels great, and I feel more connected with the city around me. And, as I keep harping on, since it's good for my health, and it makes me more content and happy, it will probably add more quality years of time to my life.

That's all true for you.  And that's totally cool.

But for me, I have to make a two-hour round trip twice per week.  I love those four hours.  I turn off my cell phone and listen to either music or a podcast.  It's great.  It's perfect.

Question - Let's say the Tesla car (and/or some other form of electric car) truly took off and became widely adopted in America.  Given the obvious positive impact on the Earth's environmental health, you'd be ecstatic about this, wouldn't you?
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Offline Dark Castle

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #161 on: April 03, 2014, 08:27:58 AM »
Just going to chime in and say I love driving.
Yeah, traffic can be a bitch sometimes, but when you've got open highway and your car radio, it's pretty fantastic. Back when I was going to school at DSU, it was a 40-50 minute drive from my parent's place back in Sioux Falls, and I'd usually come down for the weekend to hang out with friends and see family, and man those drives were the bomb. Especially driving back into Madison, passing this small lake town along the way, and the best burger place I've ever been to.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #162 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:20 AM »
What percentage of transportation do you envision personal cars taking up in this ideal system you're proposing? 

A fair amount. I haven't done a study, or read about one, to have a good number for you. But it would be dramatically reduced from where it is now, and this would have wide ranging consequenes.

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When we're just talking about getting to work and back, sure, public transportation can be a very practical solution.  But I think you're too easily dismissing or not considering the myriad ways people use their vehicles for more than just "people transport". People go camping, go on vacation, etc.  How else am I supposed to transport my telescope when I want to get out of town at night?

I think you're not reading the breadth of my posts, that or you're ignoring the parts where I've addressed this.

Transport your telescope. Just do it with a biomass based transportation fuel, or hydrogen. Those become far more economical with lower demand.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #163 on: April 03, 2014, 09:09:41 AM »

You wrote this:

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Because that lifestyle choice of yours is part of a system that negatively effects all of us. And that's true even if you don't want to acknowledge anthropogenic global warming.

It was the even if I didn't cause global warming part I found interesting.

Assuming you don't acknowledge your contribution isn't the same as assuming you weren't causing it "in fact."
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #164 on: April 03, 2014, 09:12:47 AM »
Assuming you don't acknowledge your contribution isn't the same as assuming you weren't causing it "in fact."

I'm not saying I'm not polluting the Earth.  But, this thread is recreational idea-crunching.  Nothing said in this thread is going to make me drive less.  I have things to do.  It's the broader argument about the impact of cars on society that I find interesting.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #165 on: April 03, 2014, 09:19:06 AM »
Let's leave global warming out of this.  Let's say, tomorrow, they invent a fuel cell that can cleanly power cars.  How does my decision to drive hurt society?

I frankly don't see how that is relevant at all. The car you're driving doesn't cleanly power itself. I don't really see how hypotheticals matter, when what we're talking about is practical solutions to actual problems.

You wrote this:

Quote
Because that lifestyle choice of yours is part of a system that negatively effects all of us. And that's true even if you don't want to acknowledge anthropogenic global warming.

It was the even if I didn't cause global warming part I found interesting.

I meant how the use of fossil fuels has impacts that are very well documented that have nothing to do with CO2 emissions.


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Instead of money going to more important things, that benefit the greater good, public money is often put towards the construction of roads and other amenities for cars. This takes up a lot of resources, and causes pollution.

Don't you think that building a new public transportation infrastructure in the 4th largest country in the world by area would cause a lot of pollution?

Maintaining and upgrading the interstate, highway and road system in the 4th largest country in the world by area causes a lot of pollution.

In the short term, probably. And a good deal. It would depend upon how we do what we do. We should be concerned about 50 years from now, not 5 years.

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If you walked, or used mass transit, resources could be put to better, and more economical use. If you get out for a gentle bike ride frequently, you'll probably be in better health, in turn using the healthcare system less, thereby decreasing demand, reducing costs and improving access.

This argument, from what I can tell, is fair.  But, I also don't see how it justifies re-engineering American society.

Frankly, this response leaves me a little speechless. Why am I not allowed to propose changes to better American society? It's ridiculous. It's not like I'm saying the government needs to come in and ration fossil fuels and your consumption. I'm talking about people making a transition, of their own free will, and changing the economical landscape that favors fossil fuel use. The government, bieng what it is, is involved in all of this. But it is not the agent of change. And as it is right now, I have to subsidize your interest in driving a car. I help pay for the roads through gas taxes and federal taxes, I pay higher prices at the pump for when I do need a car, and I help make sure system is kept afloat.

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I agree, which is why I want to enjoy the time that I do have. Riding a bike or walking is much more enjoyable than driving a car. I've never heard of anyone having "walking rage," and that's for a reason. I massively enjoy getting on my bike and going somewhere. It feels great, and I feel more connected with the city around me. And, as I keep harping on, since it's good for my health, and it makes me more content and happy, it will probably add more quality years of time to my life.

That's all true for you.  And that's totally cool.

A lot of what I said is true for everyone. I can say this, because of basic human physiology. Moderate and sane excercise is good for your health, and it is good for your mood.

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But for me, I have to make a two-hour round trip twice per week.  I love those four hours.  I turn off my cell phone and listen to either music or a podcast.  It's great.  It's perfect.

Good thing I have no problem with you doing that.

But anyways, sounds like a good situation for a train. On that train ride you could relax even more (at least safely), turn of your cell phone, listen to some music, podcast, read a book, maybe even post on some random internet forums. Sounds better to me, but whatever. I'm not suggesting forcing you to use a train, and not drive a car.

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Question - Let's say the Tesla car (and/or some other form of electric car) truly took off and became widely adopted in America.  Given the obvious positive impact on the Earth's environmental health, you'd be ecstatic about this, wouldn't you?

THat depends on a lot of factors. How are we giving electricity to the cars? Are we burning coal, or any other fossil fuel, in power plants? What kind of storage technology are we using? Lithium-ion batteries? Lithium is a rare-earth metal, and is, well, rare. It's not sustainable or renewable.

I wouldn't call it a positive impact on the earth at all, because I don't see why the point of reference point should be what we currently do now for transportation.

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #166 on: April 03, 2014, 12:21:19 PM »
Umm...use a suitcase? It's not like public transportation hasn't contemplated situations like that. How do you fly your telescope anywhere?

I extended the bolded selection to emphasize my point.  If i'm going an hour or two out of town in the middle of the night, the only option is a personal vehicle. In your ideal world, this would be powered by biofuels or electricity harvested from sustainable sources.

I'm about to pull the trigger on this. Can't exactly fit it in a briefcase.

http://www.telescopes.com/telescopes/dobsonian-telescopes/zhumellz12deluxedobsonianreflectortelescope.cfm

My Z10 is being delivered today.  :lol :tup

I think you're not reading the breadth of my posts, that or you're ignoring the parts where I've addressed this.

Transport your telescope. Just do it with a biomass based transportation fuel, or hydrogen. Those become far more economical with lower demand.

As soon as these become practical and economical for me, absolutely. I overlooked your biofuel points because you and SD have been advocating walking, biking, public transit as being sufficient for most people if we only upgraded those infrastructures.  I disagree, and used my telescope example as just one of many situations when those solutions just aren't flexible enough.

Introducing new cars that run on biofuel or hydrogen do not require any changes in road infrastructure, aside from re-fueling stations, which can be provided by the auto manufacturer much like Tesla has done with EV charging stations across the country for free.

My fundamental issue with moving away from cars is that it restricts your freedom of movement.  I can hop into my car at any time and go anywhere for any reason. Walking and biking is limited by range and fitness level (and this is America we're talking about). Subways or other forms of mass transit are subject to delays, strikes (I was affected by the BART strike last year as I used it to commute to work), and limited to metro areas and travel routes.  HSR tries to expand on this by acting like the backbone between metro areas, but the option chosen by CA is laughable. Overpriced and over-promised.

I'm all for a cheap, efficient, flexible, and sustainable method(s) of transporting people and their "stuff". However, all solutions I've seen thus far require too great of a trade-off to be attractive. For me, that is cost (bio-fuel car), freedom of movement (public transit), and range (biking, walking).
This thread has been burned.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #167 on: April 03, 2014, 12:52:49 PM »
I got to the part where it said "people making a transition of their own free will" before I could no longer read, due to the tears of laughter streaming down my face. Biggest laugh I've had in a long time. Thank you!  :tup
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #168 on: April 03, 2014, 01:44:29 PM »
That smugness is gonna cost you, and all the rest of us.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #169 on: April 03, 2014, 01:54:59 PM »
I got to the part where it said "people making a transition of their own free will" before I could no longer read, due to the tears of laughter streaming down my face. Biggest laugh I've had in a long time. Thank you!  :tup

That's the wrong attitude, man.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #170 on: April 03, 2014, 03:44:54 PM »
Im not trying to be rude or mean...but COME ON! SERIOUSLY?

You can't even get "people"  to switch to the dollar coin by freewill. ..or the metric system for that matter!  If you can get "the people" to voluntarily accept either of those things by nothing but freewill,  i will eat my hat and apologize.

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« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 04:38:15 PM by jammindude »
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #171 on: April 03, 2014, 04:54:46 PM »
I meant how the use of fossil fuels has impacts that are very well documented that have nothing to do with CO2 emissions.

Fair.

Quote
Frankly, this response leaves me a little speechless. Why am I not allowed to propose changes to better American society? It's ridiculous. It's not like I'm saying the government needs to come in and ration fossil fuels and your consumption. I'm talking about people making a transition, of their own free will, and changing the economical landscape that favors fossil fuel use. The government, bieng what it is, is involved in all of this. But it is not the agent of change. And as it is right now, I have to subsidize your interest in driving a car. I help pay for the roads through gas taxes and federal taxes, I pay higher prices at the pump for when I do need a car, and I help make sure system is kept afloat.

You mention not wanting to subsidize car travel, but that to me is one of those dangerous slippery slope type things.  Religious people hate even the thought of government subsidized abortions, which is why state pushes to close down Planned Parenthood clinics right now are so effective.  I don't like Planned Parenthood and I find them dishonest, but many people (especially the economically and socially disadvantaged) rely on them for reproductive services.  Real people are getting hurt because of self-centered outrage.

The reality of living under a government is that you aren't going to like everything is pays for.  Maybe I don't want the government paying for more public transportation.  But, I'm not going to get mad if that's what voters want.

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A lot of what I said is true for everyone. I can say this, because of basic human physiology. Moderate and sane excercise is good for your health, and it is good for your mood.

Aren't there other ways of encouraging this than altering our transportation infrastructure?

Quote
But anyways, sounds like a good situation for a train. On that train ride you could relax even more (at least safely), turn of your cell phone, listen to some music, podcast, read a book, maybe even post on some random internet forums. Sounds better to me, but whatever. I'm not suggesting forcing you to use a train, and not drive a car.

I'd consider it if it were time effective and less expensive.  It's cost me more to take the train than to go by car just in terms of gas money.  Not accounting for necessary taxi rides and the increased travel time.

Quote
THat depends on a lot of factors. How are we giving electricity to the cars? Are we burning coal, or any other fossil fuel, in power plants? What kind of storage technology are we using? Lithium-ion batteries? Lithium is a rare-earth metal, and is, well, rare. It's not sustainable or renewable.

I wouldn't call it a positive impact on the earth at all, because I don't see why the point of reference point should be what we currently do now for transportation.

For the purposes of this thought-experiment, it's environmentally friendly.  Not something like Lithium-ion with a terrible downside.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #172 on: April 03, 2014, 07:35:23 PM »
Im not trying to be rude or mean...but COME ON! SERIOUSLY?

You can't even get "people"  to switch to the dollar coin by freewill. ..or the metric system for that matter!  If you can get "the people" to voluntarily accept either of those things by nothing but freewill,  i will eat my hat and apologize.

EDIT: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."  - Agent K from Men in Black

That's because the dollar coin is fucking retarded.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #173 on: April 03, 2014, 08:59:09 PM »
Im not trying to be rude or mean...but COME ON! SERIOUSLY?

You can't even get "people"  to switch to the dollar coin by freewill. ..or the metric system for that matter!  If you can get "the people" to voluntarily accept either of those things by nothing but freewill,  i will eat my hat and apologize.

EDIT: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."  - Agent K from Men in Black

And yet people and societies continue to change, evolve and adapt to circumstances. Free will might be a little strong, becuase changing ecomics might make the decision for you. But the government wouldn't be making decisions, directly, for people.


Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #174 on: April 03, 2014, 09:10:58 PM »

As soon as these become practical and economical for me, absolutely. I overlooked your biofuel points because you and SD have been advocating walking, biking, public transit as being sufficient for most people if we only upgraded those infrastructures.  I disagree, and used my telescope example as just one of many situations when those solutions just aren't flexible enough.

Do you take your telescope everywhere you go? If so, that's probably not normal, in which case have at it. If not, then I don't see how that matters to what I'm saying. Bike when you can, make efforts to bike, walk when you can, make efforts to walk. The point is to not see your car as the automatic choice, decide how to travel based upon what you're doing, what it's doing outside, etc.

What I've been saying is that biking, walking, public transit, etc., are sufficient for most situations. Some situations are different. Some people will have different lives.

Quote
Introducing new cars that run on biofuel or hydrogen do not require any changes in road infrastructure, aside from re-fueling stations, which can be provided by the auto manufacturer much like Tesla has done with EV charging stations across the country for free.

Which is one reason I've been saying have at them. I'd add that the government can assist in this process, by upgrading to the new infrastructure for their own use, and allow public access. This allows for easier market penetration, and more rapid growth of a viable technology. People may want to have a hydrogen car, but they can't fuel it up if they buy it. So they don't buy it. Because no one buys one, no one make a station to fuel of the non-existence hydrogen stations.


Quote
My fundamental issue with moving away from cars is that it restricts your freedom of movement.  I can hop into my car at any time and go anywhere for any reason. Walking and biking is limited by range and fitness level (and this is America we're talking about). Subways or other forms of mass transit are subject to delays, strikes (I was affected by the BART strike last year as I used it to commute to work), and limited to metro areas and travel routes.  HSR tries to expand on this by acting like the backbone between metro areas, but the option chosen by CA is laughable. Overpriced and over-promised.

I'm all for a cheap, efficient, flexible, and sustainable method(s) of transporting people and their "stuff". However, all solutions I've seen thus far require too great of a trade-off to be attractive. For me, that is cost (bio-fuel car), freedom of movement (public transit), and range (biking, walking).

Why not all of the above? Sustainable energy is all about diversification. Use what you have, where you have it. It's not about a one size fits-all solution.