Author Topic: The Official Climate Change Thread  (Read 24332 times)

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Online Ben_Jamin

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2013, 02:02:33 AM »


The earth has survived much worse than us.  The worst I can see is a mass shift in population centers, and its associated chaos among humans.  Earth could'nt care less.

It saddens me to know how many cultures have died unnecessarily, due to human contact. Imagine all that could've been if they still thrived.

Yeah... Bt the human race is kind of cool and I kind of wish more people would care about where we end up as a species.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2013, 03:06:55 PM »
Not directly related to climate change, but didn't know where else to put it without starting a new thread.

California extends HOV lane access for plug-in cars to 2019

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57601372-48/california-extends-hov-lane-access-for-plug-in-cars-to-2019/

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Drivers of fully-electric vehicles (such as the Telsa Model S, Nissan Leaf, or Fiat 500e) and plug-in hybrid vehicles (such as the Plug-in Prius or Chevrolet Volt) can receive white or green stickers, respectively, that will allow them full access of high occupancy vehicle carpool lanes, even if they're driving solo.

I think it's great that California does stuff like this. CT is filled with miles and miles of carpool lanes that get virtually no traffic whatsoever. I wish they'd do something like this. Maybe not necessarily for electrics (They haven't caught on in the North East yet), but it'd be cool if they opened it up to vehicles that got say 35+ mpg.

Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2013, 02:54:17 PM »

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2013, 03:06:03 PM »
It's nice for once to see something that actually manages to show the connection between environmental degradation and economic consequences, but unfortunately no one is going to give a shit as long as those consequences bear on island nations that have nothing to do with 'Murica.
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2013, 01:50:08 AM »
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... while the countries like the Philippines contribute much less to the phenomenon, the consequences of climate change affect them in a disproportionate way

YES

Semi-related, people tend to say "oh my god, just look at how many people there are in the world, half of us should just die out", and what they really mean is "the half of us who live in undeveloped countries far away from me". You'll always hear "my god look at all these people" when the TV is showing videos of a religious ceremony in India, and never when you enter an American shopping mall. Fact is, if anyone should die out, it's us in the West.

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Offline puppyonacid

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #110 on: November 15, 2013, 02:38:35 AM »
My 2 cents

I think charts like that are designed to guilt trip people in to buying in to a failing agenda.

So called Green policies are often flawed and really don't seem to work beyond jacking up prices for so called solutions. I'm not citing any proof here....it's just my opinion.

I do believe our CO2 emissions has some effect but I also believe it's little more than negligible. At the absolute worst, we're every so slightly speeding up a process that would happen any way. The earth has gone through so many phases - at times it's been like a giant snow ball orbiting the sun - at others northern European regions were like tropical paradise. In fact from what I remember reading, the relatively stable nature of the planets climate over the last few millennia is unusual in the earths history. Could be wrong about that.

I'm not a global warming denier. The weather is changing. But I think the extent to which it is our fault is massively exaggerated. I think our consumption of fossil fuels is excessive and I do agree that it is a cause for concern on an environmental level. It's greedy and unethical but(!) as far as global warming goes; if the planet is going to warm up then there is little we can do to stop that happening.

Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 03:04:16 AM by puppyonacid »
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #111 on: November 15, 2013, 05:27:53 AM »
I don't know exactly how to say this... but your opinion is wrong.  It's verifiably wrong.  It's been debunked for decades now.  We can directly measure the radiative forcing humans contribute.  We don't have to guess about how much we're affecting the climate because we know exactly how we are.

Global warming is a product of human actions.  There is no compelling argument to the contrary, and none has ever been presented.
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Offline puppyonacid

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #112 on: November 15, 2013, 05:29:21 AM »
Ok. I will just ask the question.....the planet has never warmed up before?
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #113 on: November 15, 2013, 05:57:42 AM »
Ok. I will just ask the question.....the planet has never warmed up before?

Did you read the link?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #114 on: November 15, 2013, 06:10:47 AM »
 :lol

Anywho, agreed with Mora but I'd still add China to that list. For every wind turbine they install, they're still also building a new coal plant. Oh, but on that note, I'd also like to say it's interesting how, even with how in recent years it's coming out that we really aren't living in a post-racism society, this is the one form of racism - environmental racism - that never gets talked about, as if to all the world it doesn't exist.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 06:33:28 AM by Super Dude »
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Offline puppyonacid

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #115 on: November 15, 2013, 06:38:49 AM »
I did. I also read the heated debate in the comments.

I don't really think it's funny for me to be sceptical. It's just a pov I hold and I think we're holding ourselves to be oh so important to the earth. We're not. We amount to a small amount of scum on a rock that will carry on with or without us.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #116 on: November 15, 2013, 06:53:28 AM »
I did. I also read the heated debate in the comments.

I don't really think it's funny for me to be sceptical. It's just a pov I hold and I think we're holding ourselves to be oh so important to the earth. We're not. We amount to a small amount of scum on a rock that will carry on with or without us.

We can directly influence the climate of the planet.  We can measure how much we influence.  Saying we don't isn't humility; it's just ignorance.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #117 on: November 15, 2013, 07:25:05 AM »
I did. I also read the heated debate in the comments.

I don't really think it's funny for me to be sceptical. It's just a pov I hold and I think we're holding ourselves to be oh so important to the earth. We're not. We amount to a small amount of scum on a rock that will carry on with or without us.

The comments section of an academic or scientific article rarely qualify as a capable second opinion. I think these might put the issue into better perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zORv8wwiadQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg
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Offline Implode

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #118 on: November 15, 2013, 09:28:39 AM »
This is verifiable science. You can't have an "opinion" on this kind of stuff. It's true whether you believe it or not.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #119 on: November 15, 2013, 05:13:12 PM »
I did. I also read the heated debate in the comments.

I don't really think it's funny for me to be sceptical. It's just a pov I hold and I think we're holding ourselves to be oh so important to the earth. We're not. We amount to a small amount of scum on a rock that will carry on with or without us.

It's interesting that you bring up the fact that Earth was once a snowball going around the Earth, but also think humans are insignificant and couldn't possibly effect the climate. The snowball earth happened due to the emergence of cyanobacteria. If single celled organism can massively change the earths climate and atmosphere, then I imagine humans can do the same.

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2013, 06:08:59 PM »
:lol

Anywho, agreed with Mora but I'd still add China to that list. For every wind turbine they install, they're still also building a new coal plant. Oh, but on that note, I'd also like to say it's interesting how, even with how in recent years it's coming out that we really aren't living in a post-racism society, this is the one form of racism - environmental racism - that never gets talked about, as if to all the world it doesn't exist.
Yeah, China is a pretty big offender when it comes to environmental issues.

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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #121 on: November 18, 2013, 11:43:31 AM »
Ok. I will just ask the question.....the planet has never warmed up before?

It has heated up many times before. It has also gone cold many times before. In every case, there were significantly large extinctions. What we are seeing now is a change at a rate never seen before. Are we going to kill the planet? Very unlikely, maybe not even possible at this point. We could throw everything we've got at this planet and life will keep smiling back at us from one corner of the globe or another. This rate of change is extremely important though. Humans may be able to quickly adapt, but the rest of nature needs more time. We are killing off entire ecosystems (and may have already sealed the fate of thousands more) before their DNA even has a chance to alter the species. I think most people don't really understand the impact of ocean acidification. The oceans dictate the life of every organism on this planet (maybe with the exception of those sulfur snot things in caves). Changing that too quickly spells doom for the rest of the globe. That's not even counting changes in global temperatures.

Would the Earth have eventually heated up on its own? Definitely. But that's completely irrelevant when we are looking at the levels we are seeing. It's not a matter of preserving the planet. Like I said earlier, life will keep kicking long after the human population dies off, regardless what the environment is life. What's important is that we keep nature as calm as we can until the natural apocalypse (for humans) comes. Hopefully by then we will have had enough time to develop a backup plan. 




It's interesting that you bring up the fact that Earth was once a snowball going around the Earth, but also think humans are insignificant and couldn't possibly effect the climate. The snowball earth happened due to the emergence of cyanobacteria. If single celled organism can massively change the earths climate and atmosphere, then I imagine humans can do the same.


For those who don't know that term... That's the first organism that we know of that used photosynthesis to create energy for itself.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #122 on: November 18, 2013, 02:53:47 PM »
What I don't understand is people who are so concerned about the economic consequences of mitigating or preventing global climate change, if the conservative IPCC projection (which assumes a healthy dose of scientific skepticism) says the current comfort we currently enjoy is fucked if we keep going by business-as-usual. Let's suppose deniers are right - we implement cleaner technology, climate change doesn't happen or isn't as severe as predicted, and we end up in a recession or something, something that we can recover from over time (and even that's stretching it, when it's been conclusively proven that life and the economy will be a helluva lot better with renewables and without dirty energy). Maybe I wouldn't be able to enjoy my lifestyle anymore, but I'd prefer that over deniers being wrong and then not only is the economy destroyed (and our lifestyles fucked anyway), but now we've put ourselves and the whole planet in a much worse situation.

I think the videos I posted earlier went into this actually, that the debate has the whole situation figured wrong. Instead of fighting about the likelihood of the event's occurrence or severity, or the likelihood one or the other is right about that estimate, what we should really be talking about is which set of potential consequences we prefer. For instance, I like living.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 03:01:04 PM by Super Dude »
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Offline Chino

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #123 on: November 18, 2013, 06:13:58 PM »

Offline Lucien

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #124 on: November 18, 2013, 10:32:20 PM »
I love that picture.

We don't have to be trying to avoid climate change for doing things like that to be good for us.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2013, 12:39:34 AM »
It's a nice image, but it still kind of annoys me because we're way beyond the "what if it's real" stage.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #126 on: November 19, 2013, 06:34:26 AM »
It's a nice image, but it still kind of annoys me because we're way beyond the "what if it's real" stage.

Well most of us are, anyway. But the people who hold the keys to really doing something about it still are not.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #127 on: November 19, 2013, 10:33:31 AM »
Well most of us are, anyway. But the people who hold the keys to really doing something about it still are not.

I think they by and large are, but hamstrung by either outside forces or their own ineptitude. Or just their desire to stay in office.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #128 on: March 19, 2014, 06:43:54 AM »
It sounds alarmist and maybe it really is, but check this out: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

I know how it sounds, but read the body of the research. It's interesting how this "catastrophe + 1" model also fits other civilizational collapses like Rome and Han China.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #129 on: April 01, 2014, 05:49:41 AM »
It sounds alarmist and maybe it really is, but check this out: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

I know how it sounds, but read the body of the research. It's interesting how this "catastrophe + 1" model also fits other civilizational collapses like Rome and Han China.

There's plenty of cause for alarm, but psuedo-Marxist, overgeneralizing, attempting-to-turn-all-of-history-into-an-equation pondering doesn't tell us anything, thankfully.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #130 on: April 01, 2014, 07:40:44 AM »
Perhaps not, but the political pattern of rich people not realizing everything's fucked until the system bottoms out is pretty consistent, what with the Koch brothers and co. playing such a major role in our environmental stagnation.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #131 on: April 01, 2014, 10:41:56 AM »
It's frustrating because, inevitably, history always goes a certain way.  If you look at CFCs, the evidence they would destroy the earth became so overwhelming that we had to act.  And now they're banned from all products.  Didn't the people in the CFC business know this was going to happen?  Did they just not care?

Look at the Tesla car thing.  Major automakers aren't looking at the Tesla car and thinking "we should probably get in that market because it's the future and we don't want to get left behind."  They're trying to use the legal system to block the company from expanding.  The electric car's success is inevitable (or some other form of more environmentally friendly car).  Why not leverage your enormous economic resources to just make a better version now?

When Amazon was starting out, Jeff Bezos offered to sell the company to Barnes and Noble (or maybe it was Borders) and they said no.  Look how that worked out.

Does anyone really think we're going to live in a future where the government spies on the internet, we relentlessly pollute the Earth, Internet traffic is throttled by ISPs, and drones just murder everyone everywhere?  No.  And it's inevitable.  Why slow down progress?
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #132 on: April 01, 2014, 11:05:49 AM »
The electric car's success is inevitable (or some other form of more environmentally friendly car).  Why not leverage your enormous economic resources to just make a better version now?

Because the technology necessary to make a better version now isn't really there. Well, to some degree. The problem is as much the  consumer as it is the  car companies.  Americans need to stop looking at driving as a right, and the first thought process when traveling. Holy crap, get out for a bike ride. It's great, extremely more efficient than any car will ever be, good for your health, and way better for the environment. Long distances, we should be making trains, and using biofuels for energy. They're carbon neutral in use, and we have more than enough renewable biomass available in this country to make it work. It just takes a huge investment, and the only entity I know of that will ever take such a huge, long term investment is the government.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #133 on: April 01, 2014, 11:17:52 AM »
I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for how im going to get $4000 worth of tools and materials around on a bike.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #134 on: April 01, 2014, 11:51:26 AM »
Because the technology necessary to make a better version now isn't really there. Well, to some degree. The problem is as much the  consumer as it is the  car companies.  Americans need to stop looking at driving as a right, and the first thought process when traveling. Holy crap, get out for a bike ride. It's great, extremely more efficient than any car will ever be, good for your health, and way better for the environment. Long distances, we should be making trains, and using biofuels for energy. They're carbon neutral in use, and we have more than enough renewable biomass available in this country to make it work. It just takes a huge investment, and the only entity I know of that will ever take such a huge, long term investment is the government.

I think what's being skipped over in your post is the potential for future technological innovation.  It doesn't exist now, so shouldn't we be trying to work to make those technologies happen.

Trying to build up a public transportation system is, to me, a mistake.  You do not want the government controlling your movement.  Consider how we have no fly lists that are managed without transparency in an obviously paranoid and corrupt manner.  Do you want the same thing on the bus you use to go to work?

Just because this stuff doesn't necessarily happen in other countries that much (if at all) doesn't mean it can't happen here.  At some point we need to learn from the long history of government corruption, no?
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Offline Implode

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #135 on: April 01, 2014, 11:58:53 AM »
We went from having the first controlled flight to going to the moon in 60 years. We can accomplish anything if the money and politics are in the right place.

If the Soviets had developed electric cars, we'd have electric cars that'd go hundreds of miles today. Global climate change sadly is still not to that level of importance to the government.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #136 on: April 01, 2014, 01:07:22 PM »
I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for how im going to get $4000 worth of tools and materials around on a bike.

Sorry, good point, should have added that to the exemptions as well. But your truck can more than run on biofuels, or even hydrogen. Especially if other people are riding bikes and not ramping up demand for transportation fuels.


Because the technology necessary to make a better version now isn't really there. Well, to some degree. The problem is as much the  consumer as it is the  car companies.  Americans need to stop looking at driving as a right, and the first thought process when traveling. Holy crap, get out for a bike ride. It's great, extremely more efficient than any car will ever be, good for your health, and way better for the environment. Long distances, we should be making trains, and using biofuels for energy. They're carbon neutral in use, and we have more than enough renewable biomass available in this country to make it work. It just takes a huge investment, and the only entity I know of that will ever take such a huge, long term investment is the government.

I think what's being skipped over in your post is the potential for future technological innovation.  It doesn't exist now, so shouldn't we be trying to work to make those technologies happen.

Trying to build up a public transportation system is, to me, a mistake.  You do not want the government controlling your movement.  Consider how we have no fly lists that are managed without transparency in an obviously paranoid and corrupt manner.  Do you want the same thing on the bus you use to go to work?

Just because this stuff doesn't necessarily happen in other countries that much (if at all) doesn't mean it can't happen here.  At some point we need to learn from the long history of government corruption, no?

I think your characterization is extremely far off. Look at the highway and interstate system. It's huge, and I marvel at the amount of paved roads we have in this country. It does anything but restrict my movement, it gives me a hell of a lot of freedom. Freedom I otherwise wouldn't have. Public transportation and infrastructure for travel do anything but restrict peoples movement. It opens it up. We take it for granted that we can just travel across the country, on easily marked roads, that are moderately well maintained.

We also need to learn from the long list of government success, as well. History is full of examples of governance working, and working well. And yes, we should learn from our history of governmental corruption. But learning doesn't mean fleeing from, we should learn that we have to be involved, and active in our own governance. Which includes market actions.

Oh, and I never said improvements couldn't be made. But there are real and significant technological problems with alternative fuel cars. Yes, oil companies and et al. do their damnedest to keep the competition at bay. The problem is what we expect, as consumers, in the product we buy. It's the way we live, and the demands we put on cars to do what they do.

I'm actually building an electric car, right now, for the Shell Eco-Marathon. The car's for the competition aren't meant to get you across the country at 70mph. They're meant to be able to drive you around the city at 15-25 mph. Maybe 40 if you're pushing it.

Reduce, reuse, recycle. I think people forget about the first one.

Offline jammindude

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #137 on: April 01, 2014, 01:37:49 PM »
I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for how im going to get $4000 worth of tools and materials around on a bike.

Sorry, good point, should have added that to the exemptions as well. But your truck can more than run on biofuels, or even hydrogen. Especially if other people are riding bikes and not ramping up demand for transportation fuels.


I actually do really WANT to have alternatives....but especially when it comes to hauling stuff around, the #1 problem becomes POWER.   

I have yet to see a single alternative fuel that offers the horsepower needed to haul heavy things over mountains.    Out here in the Pacific Northwest, we have hills EVERYWHERE....and occasionally, we even have to make trips over the passes of the Cascade Mountains to reach the Eastern part of the state.

Diesel works, but the last I checked, BIO-diesel is still lacking as far as providing power when you need to take a ton of steel over a mountain pass.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #138 on: April 01, 2014, 03:48:35 PM »
I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for how im going to get $4000 worth of tools and materials around on a bike.

Sorry, good point, should have added that to the exemptions as well. But your truck can more than run on biofuels, or even hydrogen. Especially if other people are riding bikes and not ramping up demand for transportation fuels.


I actually do really WANT to have alternatives....but especially when it comes to hauling stuff around, the #1 problem becomes POWER.   

I have yet to see a single alternative fuel that offers the horsepower needed to haul heavy things over mountains.    Out here in the Pacific Northwest, we have hills EVERYWHERE....and occasionally, we even have to make trips over the passes of the Cascade Mountains to reach the Eastern part of the state.

Diesel works, but the last I checked, BIO-diesel is still lacking as far as providing power when you need to take a ton of steel over a mountain pass.

Biodiesel is very comparable to normal diesel, and in some ways is safer. At worst, it means having to fill up a bit more than would otherwise be the case. Compared to the problems caused by using diesel, and I'd say it's well worth it.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: The Official Climate Change Thread
« Reply #139 on: April 02, 2014, 12:54:40 AM »
The problem with bio-diesel is that it doesn't end up providing a net benefit, because agriculture is also energy- and water-intensive.  It's ultimately a scam meant to subsidize farmers.

The ideal transportation network would be a mix of HSR for medium/long distance travel (up to 1500 km or so), traditional rail for regional travel, BRT/tram/subway for intracity, and bike for primary personal use.  Supplemented by car/truck sharing programs and limited air travel.

The thing about the automobile is that it is undeniably flexible in its use, as Reapsta points out.  However this means that people own and use vehicles not suited for everyday use but for specialist tasks, like hauling large, heavy loads.  So you have people that live in the 'burbs and maybe do that once or twice a year driving F-150s, or people driving SUVs because they might have to haul seven people around one day.
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