Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 70069 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2012, 10:45:49 PM »
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2012, 11:25:55 PM »
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak
That's asinine.  Nobody who really wanted to murder somebody was ever stopped because he couldn't buy a gun, nor has a gun ever made an otherwise good person commit a murder.

And while the US does stand out with 14 of the top 50 spree killers (by body count), we're only just above the EU, which is comparable in size and population and practices very strict gun control.  There's 7 just in the UK and Germany.

Interesting tidbit: among the various weapons used in the to 50 spree killings are: various knives, axes, a katana, shovel, chisel, hatchet, mace, lance, flamethrower (homemade), club, a bus, hammer, and molotovs. 
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2012, 11:50:06 PM »
I know it's already been stated, so I apologize for beating a dead horse, but I feel it's something that warrants repeating: if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.  Do you really think people who are okay with murdering other people in the first place are going to have a moral problem with illegally owning a weapon?

Now, if I had the option of going back in time to prevent the invention of the gun, I would probably do that.  And if there was a way to seize literally every gun on the planet and prevent the production of any new ones, I might support that.  But at this point, to fight crime rates by taking guns away from law-abiding citizens (because those are the only people affected by gun control laws - citizens who actually abide by laws), it just seems... pointless at best, counterproductive at worst. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2012, 05:02:59 AM »
Exactly.
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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2012, 06:58:11 AM »
I know it's already been stated, so I apologize for beating a dead horse, but I feel it's something that warrants repeating: if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.  Do you really think people who are okay with murdering other people in the first place are going to have a moral problem with illegally owning a weapon?

Now, if I had the option of going back in time to prevent the invention of the gun, I would probably do that.  And if there was a way to seize literally every gun on the planet and prevent the production of any new ones, I might support that.  But at this point, to fight crime rates by taking guns away from law-abiding citizens (because those are the only people affected by gun control laws - citizens who actually abide by laws), it just seems... pointless at best, counterproductive at worst.

:clap:

though, i believe this latest nut actually obtained his guns legally.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #75 on: July 22, 2012, 09:56:00 AM »
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If their gun restrictions are actually made of common sense, I'm skipping over to Canada first chance I get.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #76 on: July 22, 2012, 11:18:26 AM »
I think a lot of people have problems just shrugging off the constant stream of dead people caused by a very questionable part of the Constitution.

rumborak

Yeah I'm with you on this one. If their gun restrictions are actually made of common sense, I'm skipping over to Canada first chance I get.
I'd certainly recommend that you do that.  Not because of any gun laws or likelihood of being shot, which is ridiculous and completely irrational, but because it's just a cooler place to be.

Canada has pretty tight regulations, but massive gun ownership nevertheless.  They've had one major freakout in the last 25 years.  You guys keep pointing to guns as the reason people kill each other.  There are far too many other considerations that y'all are ignoring.  I can point to countless cultural considerations that probably factor more into it than availability of guns.  This is supported by the fact that we also rank very high in assaults, burglaries, car thefts, rape, etc. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #77 on: July 22, 2012, 04:22:25 PM »
Back to the other recent mass murder, doesn't Hezbollah take credit for their attacks?  They're denying involvement in the Bulgaria bombings, claiming that tourists weren't good targets for their grievances.  I'm no expert, but aren't they upfront about what they blow up?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2012, 05:15:22 PM »
Btw, I am by no means saying guns make people kill others. I am saying guns multiply the damage a deranged person can achieve. In a country where a lot of people with mental illnesses remain untreated because of lack of healthcare, that is a serious concern.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2012, 05:45:40 PM »
Btw, I am by no means saying guns make people kill others. I am saying guns multiply the damage a deranged person can achieve.

rumborak
Or stop them half way when their drum magazine jams up.  Who's to say how much more damage that Joker dickwad could have done if he'd decided to use fire or explosives, which is what maniacs without guns would go for.  I'd be a fool to say that guns don't make it somewhat easier to kill a bunch of people than, say, a baseball bat, but they're also nowhere near as devastating as other improvised means can be.  Frankly, I'd say the reason he only hurt 70 people, and not 300 was a failure of imagination on his part. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2012, 05:50:13 PM »
It's a game of probability. Everybody can operate a gun, but not every lunatic can build himself an incendiary device. The further you push up the effort to kill people the less likely they become.

rumborak
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2012, 06:15:16 PM »
Back to the other recent mass murder, doesn't Hezbollah take credit for their attacks?  They're denying involvement in the Bulgaria bombings, claiming that tourists weren't good targets for their grievances.  I'm no expert, but aren't they upfront about what they blow up?

Generally, but like most Arab militant groups, they calmed the hell down once they took real power. Right now they are essentially the Lebanese government, for all intents and purposes. So for a militant group to take responsibility for an attack is no big deal. But for a governing body to take responsibility for one of those attacks can be construed as a reason to attack that country. So IF Hezbollah was responsible, and I'm not convinced they were, then they'd risk a war with Israel and whatever other country wants to join in.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2012, 09:49:11 PM »
Back to the other recent mass murder, doesn't Hezbollah take credit for their attacks?  They're denying involvement in the Bulgaria bombings, claiming that tourists weren't good targets for their grievances.  I'm no expert, but aren't they upfront about what they blow up?

Generally, but like most Arab militant groups, they calmed the hell down once they took real power. Right now they are essentially the Lebanese government, for all intents and purposes. So for a militant group to take responsibility for an attack is no big deal. But for a governing body to take responsibility for one of those attacks can be construed as a reason to attack that country. So IF Hezbollah was responsible, and I'm not convinced they were, then they'd risk a war with Israel and whatever other country wants to join in.
Very informative.   :tup

That actually suggests to me that they're quite aware they have much more to lose by dicking around with Israel.  If they're not going to tell people why they did it, then it seems to me to be little more than a random act of belligerence, that gains nothing and risks much.  Makes no sense whatsoever for the group you just described. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2012, 09:54:15 PM »
Right now groups like Hamas, and Hezbollah can accomplish more by secretly arming other tinier groups to do their dirty work for them. That way they can fight a country and not let the country fight back.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2012, 11:25:00 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/officials-egypt-allowing-palestinians-enter-without-permits-visas-022152365.html


I truly applaud Egypt for this. It's about damn time someone tries to help the Gazans.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #85 on: July 25, 2012, 12:19:40 PM »
Christ.  This doesn't seem helpful, at all.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/total-war-islam/?pid=1195
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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2012, 05:23:50 PM »
It's a game of probability. Everybody can operate a gun, but not every lunatic can build himself an incendiary device. The further you push up the effort to kill people the less likely they become.

rumborak

Well, building a bomb isn't hard. It's getting what you need that "can" become difficult.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #87 on: July 26, 2012, 09:37:10 PM »
Heh.  Boris Johnson has been really going off against Romney.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #88 on: July 27, 2012, 03:48:36 AM »
Lol, romney.

Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #89 on: July 27, 2012, 08:00:23 AM »
Way to stick his foot in his mouth. While he certainly is a smart guy, I have strong doubts about his knowledge of foreign cultures. He strikes me as one of those people who think everybody wants to be American, they just don't know it yet.

rumborak
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2012, 08:23:48 AM »
Heh heh.  Romneyshambles.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2012, 12:04:47 PM »
Way to stick his foot in his mouth. While he certainly is a smart guy, I have strong doubts about his knowledge of foreign cultures. He strikes me as one of those people who think everybody wants to be American, they just don't know it yet.

rumborak

He probably is one of those guys.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2012, 02:20:39 PM »
W.T.F.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #94 on: July 27, 2012, 02:24:14 PM »
that is crazy!

Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #95 on: July 27, 2012, 02:38:38 PM »
So, the guy ends up almost shooting a meter woman several years ago, and he still has a valid firearms permit? Awesome.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #96 on: July 27, 2012, 05:26:43 PM »
Charging him with 2nd degree homicide is a stretch, but OK until you prove otherwise.  However, the coup de grace should automatically raise it to a capital crime.  There's nothing in any book that says you get to finish somebody off.  Ever.  Once the "threat" is neutralized, your ability to use force ends.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2012, 05:31:08 PM »
EB, what is there to even rationalize about this? The guy was a lunatic with an armament who executed an innocent person. It's almost irrelevant what you charge him with.
And I just can't help but wonder if we're ever gonna see the word "Praxis" in the news.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2012, 05:36:17 PM »
There's always room for rationalization.  I agree with you about the guy, and I'm glad he'll be going away forever, but that doesn't mean there aren't interesting aspects about what went down.

As for his possessing a CCW permit, he was acquitted by a jury over the meter reader charge.  In retrospect, I blame them for this.  A conviction would have prevented him from, at the very least, being able to CCW.  The investigators and the prosecutor knew he was nuts, but couldn't do anything about it without that conviction. 
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #99 on: July 27, 2012, 05:36:54 PM »
Chill, guys. It was in self-defense.

Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #100 on: July 27, 2012, 05:50:26 PM »
As for his possessing a CCW permit, he was acquitted by a jury over the meter reader charge.  In retrospect, I blame them for this.  A conviction would have prevented him from, at the very least, being able to CCW.  The investigators and the prosecutor knew he was nuts, but couldn't do anything about it without that conviction.

That's what I'm hoping will actually come out of this. If you want a gun, so be it, get a license. But, the license should operate under the implicit assumption of impeccable and steadfast character. If you show that you're not, there goes your license. And maybe random house searches should be considered for people who have shown themselves to be unstable and lean towards gun protection.

rumborak
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #101 on: July 27, 2012, 06:35:23 PM »
Quote
And maybe random house searches should be considered for people who have shown themselves to be unstable and lean towards gun protection.

Well you completely lose me there. The problem with this, amongst many other things, is that you can't reasonably expect the search to be purely for guns.

Seems me to me we could have basic psychology tests given to people who apply for a permit/license. If any red flags come up, require them to talk with a psychologist to determine if the person is safe enough to own a gun. By and large, all this would mean is that people have to do a quick 10 minute, multiple answer test. I'm sure a few wackjobs would be able to slip through, but I can't imagine it having no effect at all.

Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #102 on: July 27, 2012, 06:49:40 PM »
Maybe it's my European background, but in my opinion there's something amiss if you have a guy who's raised a gun to a meter maid, is known by everybody as the crazy guy, but doesn't get checked on.

rumborak
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #103 on: July 27, 2012, 06:56:38 PM »
I believe Rumbo is suggesting permitting for all gun ownership, though.  That's never gonna happen.  I'd be forced to agree that the qualification for buying a gun is a little to lax, I just went through the whole 5 minute process myslef, but I'm not sure what more can be done here. 

I do know that the ATF has data on all gun purchases.  I don't know how well organized they are, but I suppose that there could be a mechanism where red flags cause them to look and see if you own registered weapons.  It'd be far from fool-proof, but in the rare event that a law-abiding gun owner goes off his nut, like this asshole, then it might help. 


Maybe it's my European background, but in my opinion there's something amiss if you have a guy who's raised a gun to a meter maid, is known by everybody as the crazy guy, but doesn't get checked on.

rumborak
Truth be told, I'm not entirely sure he was crazy enough to warrant suspicion.  The meter reader incident can't be held against him once he's acquitted.  Right or wrong, that's a freebee.  As for his mental faculties, the word of neighbors doesn't really count a whole lot in my book.  A few of my neighbors probably think I'm a little off kilter.  He's a jackass and horribly misguided, but he might not be nutzo. 
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #104 on: July 27, 2012, 07:02:00 PM »
Maybe it's my European background, but in my opinion there's something amiss if you have a guy who's raised a gun to a meter maid, is known by everybody as the crazy guy, but doesn't get checked on.

rumborak

Getting checked on isn't the same as having a random house search. Like EB would say, there's a price that comes with a free society. There comes a point when the solutions to a problem become worse than the actual problem.