Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 56223 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2012, 06:01:39 PM »
I see three possibilities.  Iran did it.  Israel did it.  Somebody else did it.  I'd probably call them all equal odds.  The sticking point for me is that both Iran and Israel have too much to lose if they're found out, and the reward isn't great enough to warrant the risk.  I'd probably go with 25/25/50 in favor of unknown third party.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2012, 06:03:02 PM »
I see three possibilities.  Iran did it.  Israel did it.  Somebody else did it.  I'd probably call them all equal odds.  The sticking point for me is that both Iran and Israel have too much to lose if they're found out, and the reward isn't great enough to warrant the risk.  I'd probably go with 25/25/50 in favor of unknown third party.

Israel did not suicide bomb their own people in order to start a war with Iran.

If you think they really did then you know nothing about my country.

I also however think it's likely a 3rd party. It's so easy to get bombs these days that you don't need to be a major organization to do something like this.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2012, 06:07:21 PM »
Was it a suicide bomber?

Setting aside the false flag option for now, would you actually trust Israel to investigate this on their own?
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2012, 06:08:04 PM »
Was it a suicide bomber?

Setting aside the false flag option for now, would you actually trust Israel to investigate this on their own?

From what I understand it was a suicide bomber. And I trust Israel to investigate this WITH the Bulgarian government.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2012, 06:10:54 PM »
theseoafs checking in.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2012, 06:44:10 PM »
Was it a suicide bomber?

Setting aside the false flag option for now, would you actually trust Israel to investigate this on their own?

From what I understand it was a suicide bomber. And I trust Israel to investigate this WITH the Bulgarian government.
I don't think I'd want them involved at all, to be honest.  They don't actually need the pretense for war, but I doubt they'd let an opportunity for one pass them by.  And there's a flip side to that, as well.  If Iran really did do it (unlikely, IMO), would anybody actually believe them if Israel produced the evidence?  It serves everybody's interest to have outsiders investigate this. 


Israel did not suicide bomb their own people in order to start a war with Iran.

If you think they really did then you know nothing about my country.
Yeah, you're right.  I don't think they'd blow up their own citizens.  They'd blow up somebody else's, but even that would require a better gain than a pretense for a war everybody already knows is coming anyway. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »
Why do I get the feeling sales of metal detectors are fixing to skyrocket.  Despite the fact that dickhead used the rear door to carry his weapons in, I'd bet real money we see checkpoints at the front doors of movie theaters very shortly.  After all, if we don't do something, anything, the bad guys win. 
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2012, 12:30:29 PM »
Why do I get the feeling sales of metal detectors are fixing to skyrocket.  Despite the fact that dickhead used the rear door to carry his weapons in, I'd bet real money we see checkpoints at the front doors of movie theaters very shortly.  After all, if we don't do something, anything, the bad guys win.

I was confused about that, actually.  I don't think I've ever been to a movie theater where you could actually get in through a rear door.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2012, 12:32:30 PM »
When we were sneaking into R rated movies (30 years ago), they weren't locked, but couldn't be opened from the outside.  Regardless, they said he kicked this door open. 
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2012, 06:31:27 PM »
Another brick in the wall of reasons to completely disarm the American public. It just ain't worth it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2012, 07:22:25 PM »
Another brick in the wall of reasons to completely disarm the American public. It just ain't worth it.
I can assure you that somebody interested in slaughtering a theater full of Batman fans could do just as devastating a job without guns.  After giving it two minutes worth of consideration, I've brainstormed a couple of ideas that would have far surpassed what numbnuts did last night, and I'm not even a homicidal maniac. 
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Offline antigoon

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2012, 08:35:37 PM »
Yeah, I really don't think an outright ban is the answer.


Also, the Constitution, y'know?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2012, 09:53:36 PM »
What reason do we have to allow an armed population?
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2012, 09:55:14 PM »
What reason do we have to allow an armed population?

So people can pull their guns on the people who are using their guns.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2012, 10:44:10 PM »
Those people wouldn't have guns if we disarmed them. There wouldn't be anyone with guns to pull guns out on.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2012, 10:51:47 PM »
Those people wouldn't have guns if we disarmed them. There wouldn't be anyone with guns to pull guns out on.

Yeah, I was being facetious.  I'm on your side.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2012, 10:52:42 PM »
Alright, gotcha, sorry. But hey, don't laugh, I've had people use that justification to me before, and this time will certainly be no exception.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2012, 11:08:18 PM »
SD:  Here's an interesting notion.  If every person in America were given a .38 wheel gun and instruction in it's use, do you think the number of unlawful homicides would go up or down? 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2012, 04:51:21 AM »
Those people wouldn't have guns if we disarmed them. There wouldn't be anyone with guns to pull guns out on.
Look, I'm not a gun nut, but this simply isn't true.  If we made guns illegal, it wouldn't mean that the criminals and psycopaths could no longer get guns.  It would just mean that law-abiding citizens couldn't get guns.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2012, 06:01:30 AM »
SD:  Here's an interesting notion.  If every person in America were given a .38 wheel gun and instruction in it's use, do you think the number of unlawful homicides would go up or down?

Perhaps the number of unlawful homicides would go down, but the only result in turn would be absolute chaos.

Japan has been disarmed for over 500 years and they're not doing too bad with that policy.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2012, 09:49:12 AM »
SD:  Here's an interesting notion.  If every person in America were given a .38 wheel gun and instruction in it's use, do you think the number of unlawful homicides would go up or down?

Perhaps the number of unlawful homicides would go down, but the only result in turn would be absolute chaos.

Japan has been disarmed for over 500 years and they're not doing too bad with that policy.
Why chaos?  Would you start running amok with yours?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2012, 09:52:11 AM »
No, I imagine I'd end up getting shot by those that would. Personally I think civilians who choose to own and use guns are crazy, but hey, that's just me.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2012, 10:45:30 AM »
How many of those people do you think would do something naughty with their weapon just because they were given one?  You're acting as if there are all of these people just itching to run around shooting each other, but don't because they don't have easy enough access to a gun.  The truth is, the law abiding won't use it for anything other than self defense, and the criminal element won't do anything they wouldn't already do one way or the other. 

As for you, you'll say "I don't even want that thing in my house!", put it in a locked box in your closet, and pretend it isn't there.  However, it will be there.  In the very unlikely event that some maniac starts breaking down your door shouting "I'm coming inside to murder you!", you'll be able to defend yourself, or at the very least fire off a warning shot.

The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2012, 11:11:56 AM »
The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 

Premeditated crime would down - no one's gonna want to rip off a 7-11 at gunpoint or try to mug someone in an alley when everybody else is packing. But there's plenty of crimes that aren't premeditated, and if everyone's armed they're only going to escalate in violence.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2012, 11:13:01 AM »
How many of those people do you think would do something naughty with their weapon just because they were given one?  You're acting as if there are all of these people just itching to run around shooting each other, but don't because they don't have easy enough access to a gun.  The truth is, the law abiding won't use it for anything other than self defense, and the criminal element won't do anything they wouldn't already do one way or the other. 

As for you, you'll say "I don't even want that thing in my house!", put it in a locked box in your closet, and pretend it isn't there.  However, it will be there.  In the very unlikely event that some maniac starts breaking down your door shouting "I'm coming inside to murder you!", you'll be able to defend yourself, or at the very least fire off a warning shot.

The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 

PraXis is ready, willing, and fairly eager to shoot anyone who comes near his property, whether they deserve the lead or not - he's said so at least a dozen times himself, and there are others who can attest to that as well. That's a very different situation than someone coming into your house and saying they'll murder you. Or someone could shoot another person in their house and claim post-mortem that they broke in and came with malicious intent. And then the only word you have going for you is the guy who did the killing.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2012, 11:43:19 AM »
How many of those people do you think would do something naughty with their weapon just because they were given one?  You're acting as if there are all of these people just itching to run around shooting each other, but don't because they don't have easy enough access to a gun.  The truth is, the law abiding won't use it for anything other than self defense, and the criminal element won't do anything they wouldn't already do one way or the other. 

As for you, you'll say "I don't even want that thing in my house!", put it in a locked box in your closet, and pretend it isn't there.  However, it will be there.  In the very unlikely event that some maniac starts breaking down your door shouting "I'm coming inside to murder you!", you'll be able to defend yourself, or at the very least fire off a warning shot.

The only overall net effect will be a massive increase in deterrence to commit a violent crime. 

PraXis is ready, willing, and fairly eager to shoot anyone who comes near his property, whether they deserve the lead or not - he's said so at least a dozen times himself, and there are others who can attest to that as well. That's a very different situation than someone coming into your house and saying they'll murder you. Or someone could shoot another person in their house and claim post-mortem that they broke in and came with malicious intent. And then the only word you have going for you is the guy who did the killing.
Yeah, let's not use Praxis as a reference point.   :facepalm:

As for your second point, that's equally applicable with a chef's knife, or in my case, Mr. Maglite over there.  I can assure you that if I ever have to swing that thing at somebody, theirs a subdural hematoma coming that'll be just as life threatening as a few 9mm holes.  But again, the issue is with the actors, not the weapons, and certainly not the availability of the weapons.  Furthermore, I still maintain that if the likelihood of everybody being armed jumped up, the necessity for somebody to exercise self defense would decrease.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2012, 03:50:12 PM »
I think the fact that nobody in the theater returned fire, despite almost certainly some people wearing guns, shows that the deterrent doesn't really work. If you gave everybody a gun all you get is more crazy people having one and using them.
Also, the difference between a Maglite and a gun is that you, at best, would kill one person before somebody would intervene. You can simply run away from a Maglite.

The problem is that guns quickly enable somebody to commit mass murder. Much more readily than it enables somebody to defend himself with it.

Also, those people like Holmes aren't deterred by other people's guns, as is clearly evident (since he must have expected some people to have guns in the theater). He wanted to go out in a blaze, I assume he was actually planning to die during the shooting. As his booby-trapped apartment testifies too. The only way to keep a person like Holmes from doing what he did is to keep him from having the means.

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« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 04:01:18 PM by rumborak »
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2012, 04:19:08 PM »
Armed victims is not a deterrent to a suicidal person, as I suspect this guy was at the time of his freakout.  I'm also not sure if any of the movie-goers were armed.  It's generally up to the venue to determine if they allow weapons inside or not, and the people who tend to legally carry also tend to abide by those rules.  Colorado is a pretty gun-friendly state, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if there were no armed citizens in that theater other than the bad guy.

But while it won't serve as a deterrent to a suicidal man, it might well stop the incident before it becomes worse.

Here's a pretty straight forward question.  He shot 70 people before going out side to wait for Johnny's arrival.  Wouldn't you prefer that somebody in that theater had shot him after two?
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2012, 04:43:35 PM »
He also had a kevlar vest on. Just sayin'.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2012, 06:01:41 PM »
Here's a pretty straight forward question.  He shot 70 people before going out side to wait for Johnny's arrival.  Wouldn't you prefer that somebody in that theater had shot him after two?

Of course. But the point is, given the gun density necessary to make that a likely event, is it not more likely that you facilitated more loonies to commit such a thing than deterred the existing ones from committing it?

Besides, in a situation like that, sending twice (or more) the amount of bullets flying through the air doesn't strike me as surefire way of preventing deaths.

But here's a totally different angle: If defense+deterrent is the aim of massive gun ownership, why do those guns need to be lethal? What about rubber bullets? I personally would probably have no issues with a lot of people having a rubber bullet gun at home for defense. And lo and behold, probably nobody will steal your gun from your home either. And I would think that somebody like Holmes might think twice if there's a good chance he simply be incapacitated and spend the rest of his life picking up soap in a prison.

EDIT: Just found this on Wikipedia:
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In Russia, a variety of handguns are carried with specially weakened construction and barrel with internal lugs, making use of full-power loads and/or firing hard projectiles impossible, while rubber bullets just compress when passing the lug and so may be fired.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2012, 06:30:33 PM »
At this point, do you (anybody) really think it's possible to disarm America?  The only thing you guys are suggesting is to disarm the good guys in the hopes of making it slightly more inconvenient on the bad guys.

As for the outcome the other night, I don't see much likelihood of the situation actually being worse.  He took several minutes to shoot all those people.  If nothing else, it would have been an improvement if he had to spend half of one of those minutes trying to defend himself.  Also keep in mind, you wouldn't object if a cop, or even some rent-a-cop had gone in there and started shooting back, would you?  It's a hard thing to quantify, but I'd put an educated citizen on the same level as your average cop in a panic situation like that. As is always the case, some people do better than others in a crisis, and being a cop doesn't necessarily make you one of the better ones.  How many of those people you think had military training?  Would you mind if they had been packing?

As for rubber bullets, what we've seen with asshole cops and their damn tazers is that if you give somebody a less lethal option, they're much more likely to use it.  Contrary to SD's concerns, if you give everybody a real gun that actually destroys what it's fired at, nobody's going to run around shooting each other.  You give them rubber bullets and you'll see people resorting to violence much quicker.  It'd take less than a week before somebody got maimed over an otherwise benign road rage incident. 

edit: it's also worth mentioning that there might well have been armed citizens in that theater who made the decision to flee rather than intervene.  A responsible person will make that decision based on the totality of the circumstances.  Not everybody who carries wants to automatically adopt the Paul Kersey approach.  I wouldn't fault anybody in there if they decided that shooting back wasn't the best move under the circumstances. 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 06:35:37 PM by El Barto »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2012, 06:36:23 PM »
What's the conclusion then? Incidents like these are collateral damage of a society free to arm itself to the brim?

Which is incidentally my stance at this point. It's of course a sad incident, but the US society as a whole doesn't care enough to do something about it.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2012, 07:07:01 PM »
Wrong.  Incidents like these are the collateral damage of a free society. Period. 

If they never happened in other places with strict gun control laws, I might see your point.  Yet they do.  Frequently, in fact.  Sometimes with guns obtained illegally, and sometimes with other weapons.  Over the years, some people have been able to amass quite a body count using blade weapons.  Locking doors and starting fires/explosions is also an old standby.   
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2012, 09:08:52 PM »
This might be news bias, but I certainly have the impression that the US stands out in terms of amok runs.

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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2012, 10:33:38 PM »
I'm 100% with Barto. If someone wants to kill people, they will find a way. Whether it be guns, fires, cutlery or bludgeoning. I have a metal bat underneath my bed in case some breaks in. We're in an upstairs apartment, so there is only one door in. Mrs. snapple and I already have a plan in place if we get broken into.

A.) I grab the bat and hide behind the wall in case the asshole breaking in gets nearby and I can whack the shit out of him
B.) She calls the cops before the whacking starts

The idea of "disarming America" is unrealistic at best. I'm just upset that this has to be discussed every single time something like this happens. It's a tragedy that people are dead, and we have to talk about stripping rights away from the U.S. citizens?
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