Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 98996 times)

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Offline chknptpie

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1505 on: December 07, 2017, 08:19:52 PM »
I had a coworker that it took 10 years. Doesn't make sense to me.

Offline sylvan

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1506 on: December 08, 2017, 06:41:09 AM »
Reminds me of Silicon Valley when Gilfoyle had to take a citizenship test. It took Dinesh years of questions about being a terrorist, and the Canadian got his in like an hour.

Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1507 on: December 08, 2017, 06:41:57 AM »
My coworker is from India and has been in the country for maybe 8 years now, the last 2 working here.  He is being sponsored by the company for his citizenship.  My boss tells me the company has him by the balls kind of, like he can't really go find another job so easily if he wants to keep this up for getting the citizenship. Guy's a real hard worker and overall really good person so it really sucks for him.  I don't understand why it takes so long either, but I respect the hell out of someone who goes through with it.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1508 on: January 17, 2018, 07:31:27 PM »
Is it just me...or is that False alarm Alert and then the recent Meteor strike an odd coincidence.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1509 on: January 17, 2018, 07:39:46 PM »
What false alarm?
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1510 on: January 18, 2018, 10:01:05 AM »
The Hawaii missile alert, no doubt.

Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1511 on: January 18, 2018, 10:26:29 AM »
There's a link between the Hawaii missile alert and a comet in like Michigan?
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Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1512 on: January 18, 2018, 12:07:52 PM »
There's a link between the Hawaii missile alert and a comet in like Michigan?

I'm not sure I understand the potential connection either

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1513 on: February 27, 2018, 07:31:24 PM »
The problem is that the right goes to such extraordinary lengths to live up to the perception.

I get it...this sub forum is heavily populated with democrat minded/left leaning folks. It's not difficult to figure out. If it weren't for Bill you guys would just spend the days continually stroking each other and confirming over and over how right you all are. At least he interjects and drives some topic of debate. More power to him.

I can't say I disagree with this too much.  There are a handful of other posters who lean more conservative/"right" (Sylvan comes to mind), but Stad for sure is the most vocal.  I will give EB full credit taking non-traditional view points for a lefty.

Is it possible that because there are more outspoke hardcore / FAR right-ists (and stereotypes for them) than there are far-Leftists (at least, that's my perception... correct me if I'm wrong), that moderate/strong Right-ists keep quiet at times for fear of association with the far Right-wing?  I know a lot of moderate conservatives both personally and here - Gary, you come to mind - who don't speak up much when it comes to hot political topics.

Just a thought/observation.
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1514 on: February 27, 2018, 08:56:54 PM »
for sure is  I know a lot of moderate conservatives both personally and here - Gary, you come to mind - who don't speak up much when it comes to hot political topics.

Just a thought/observation.

Yeah, I learned my lesson.   :lol   I used to get way more involved in the conversation/debate(s) in P/R but these days I honestly donít see the point. You have guys like EB and Bill (and others) who know their  :censored and are really well versed and can go back and forth fairly quickly and easily. I on the other hand read and pay attention enough to keep up with the world but am no means anywhere near as educated as I should be on the issues.

And, a lot of the reason I stay out of it is because of my Faith....which plays a strong role in the way I see things. I donít expect people who donít Ďbelieveí to understand nor do I want to get all preachy....so a lot of what Iíd have to offer would be dismissed as quickly as it was read. There are some respectful posters in this sub forum who I know think religion is silly...because theyíve said it yet they donít chide me or others of Faith. BUT there are others who are flat out ignorant as well and so I just choose not to really engage in a lot of it.

I lurk a lot.....and honestly enjoy reading all you major players in the sub forumís conversation. I just donít see how much I could add to it being that Iím a Conservative Christian White Male.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1515 on: February 27, 2018, 08:56:55 PM »
Is it possible that because there are more outspoke hardcore / FAR right-ists (and stereotypes for them) than there are far-Leftists (at least, that's my perception... correct me if I'm wrong),

Do you mean this forum, or in (American) society in general? If the latter, it would depend on region. In the socialist area I live in, If you are slightly right of center, you are looked down upon. I am in this camp, and am aware that admitting to conservative viewpoints can result in awkward looks, or outright derision.

that moderate/strong Right-ists keep quiet at times for fear of association with the far Right-wing?  I know a lot of moderate conservatives both personally and here - Gary, you come to mind - who don't speak up much when it comes to hot political topics.

I don't like being associated with the "far right" when I often disagree with them, but don't want it to dissuade me from having more traditional right-wing views, just as I try to not lump all my left-leaning friends in with the "far left" whom I wholly disagree with.

I just donít see how much I could add to it being that Iím a Conservative Christian White Male.

And that is a serious problem our society is facing, where if you are of that particular demographic, your views are dismissed because you don't know what it is like to be any type of minority, so can't have anything valuable to contribute to any discussion.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1516 on: February 28, 2018, 05:03:31 AM »
The strongest argument for socialism is capitalism. Discuss.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1517 on: February 28, 2018, 05:27:22 AM »
Is it possible that because there are more outspoke hardcore / FAR right-ists (and stereotypes for them) than there are far-Leftists (at least, that's my perception... correct me if I'm wrong),

Do you mean this forum, or in (American) society in general?

I think both.  There are conservatives here at DTF that don't post a lot in P/R (Tick also comes to mind; Bosk pops in and out... atm he's 'in', and others if I put my mind to it).

Also... I specifically described it as the "far" right, not the "alt" right - meaning to imply super-hardcore conservatives who are absolute and firm in their conservative views, the kind who won't promote or advocate for conspiracy theories, but who might just see some truth in them, the kind who don't see any kind of gun safety measures are necessary, but not the kind who think GMO homo-sexual frogs are controlling the weather.
Can you imagine some alien race comes to a large nebula they've never seen before, and it just turns out it's the Federation's dumping ground for space-smile?
And TAC can suck it  :biggrin:, this is heavy in all the right places.  :tup

Offline cramx3

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1518 on: February 28, 2018, 07:23:51 AM »
for sure is  I know a lot of moderate conservatives both personally and here - Gary, you come to mind - who don't speak up much when it comes to hot political topics.

Just a thought/observation.

Yeah, I learned my lesson.   :lol   I used to get way more involved in the conversation/debate(s) in P/R but these days I honestly donít see the point. You have guys like EB and Bill (and others) who know their  :censored and are really well versed and can go back and forth fairly quickly and easily. I on the other hand read and pay attention enough to keep up with the world but am no means anywhere near as educated as I should be on the issues.

And, a lot of the reason I stay out of it is because of my Faith....which plays a strong role in the way I see things. I donít expect people who donít Ďbelieveí to understand nor do I want to get all preachy....so a lot of what Iíd have to offer would be dismissed as quickly as it was read. There are some respectful posters in this sub forum who I know think religion is silly...because theyíve said it yet they donít chide me or others of Faith. BUT there are others who are flat out ignorant as well and so I just choose not to really engage in a lot of it.

I lurk a lot.....and honestly enjoy reading all you major players in the sub forumís conversation. I just donít see how much I could add to it being that Iím a Conservative Christian White Male.

From my POV, it seems whenever GMD says anything in the PR forum, he gets shut down immediately.  And even more so with Tick, but I think Tick has a way of expressing his thoughts that lead to some harsher responses back.  But personally I find GMD's post to not be aggressive. I'd say your views are solid on the right and your view of the forum is what I see as well.  I feel like that also kind of represents American society as well.  I think there's a really large silent conservative group out there that doesn't speak up because some on the left are very quick to make them feel uncomfortable about speaking their opinions.  My father is probably the only really vocal conservative I know (I'd say my father is far right).  It's kind of annoying cause he gets into arguments with almost everyone.  Most conservatives I know aren't interested in living that kind of life so they talk amongst themselves and don't really bother publicly expressing their views. 

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1519 on: February 28, 2018, 08:11:36 AM »
Thanks for the sentiment cramx.....but I also know that there are moments when I allow my emotion to get the best of me and I'll make a post that I probably should have thought out a little bit more, and those do get some push back. It's all good. As I mentioned, for the most part even the guys in here that I know we are on opposite ends of the political spectrum are pretty respectful.

I'd say Chad had it pretty close as to if I were to be 'classified' politically, as being 'moderate conservative'. My personal beliefs remain the same, I believe in a strong military, limited Federal Government, emphasis on States rights, personal responsibility and I do believe in Jesus Christ. Whichever candidate comes closest to 'matching' my world view is who gets my vote.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1520 on: February 28, 2018, 08:13:41 AM »
The strongest argument for socialism is capitalism. Discuss.

There is no argument for socialism. At least no good one.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1521 on: February 28, 2018, 08:15:52 AM »
From my POV, it seems whenever GMD says anything in the PR forum, he gets shut down immediately.
Yeah, I don't see that at all. He might get called out for his opinion, as any of the rest of us do. That's a very different thing. The problem is that he's expressed on several occasions that he doesn't think trying to convince the rest of us of anything is a worthwhile effort. Coming in, expressing an opinion, and then deciding that it's not worth trying to defend is a far cry from being shut down.

As for Rich, I think that's changed a bit over the last few years. It was certainly the case a while ago that anything he posted put a giant bullseye on his head. That's not really the case anymore. I'll still question his beliefs, but I'm pretty sure he understands where I'm coming from. I certainly go after his positions rather than him, which wasn't always the case with others here.
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Offline Chino

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1522 on: February 28, 2018, 08:21:03 AM »
The strongest argument for socialism is capitalism. Discuss.

There is no argument for socialism. At least no good one.

I see nothing wrong with a regulated capitalist society with designated programs that may be socialist by definition.

I kind of like having DOT crews, police and fire departments, a military, public education, public transportation, bridges, garbage collection, an EPA, museums, public parks, sewers, street lighting, public defenders, NPR, OSHA, and a national weather service.

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1523 on: February 28, 2018, 08:26:15 AM »
Yeah but think of all the money your boss could have!
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1524 on: February 28, 2018, 08:30:38 AM »
The strongest argument for socialism is capitalism. Discuss.
The problem people run into when discussing this is that it's always viewed as starkly binary. There are things that need to be left to the free market and there are things that need to be kept out of the free market.

As for Super Jew's point, I think it's perfectly valid, even if it doesn't miss the point. There are a lot of pitfalls with capitalism. I've actually been knocking around starting a thread about it, but just haven't gotten around to it yet. At least once a day I see a component or example that really pisses me off, though.
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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1525 on: February 28, 2018, 08:30:47 AM »
Capitalism is a pyramid scheme.  :P

Edit: Dang it, Barto. You ninja'd my joke with logic and a good opinion.  :sad:

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1526 on: February 28, 2018, 08:37:34 AM »
From my POV, it seems whenever GMD says anything in the PR forum, he gets shut down immediately.
Yeah, I don't see that at all. He might get called out for his opinion, as any of the rest of us do. That's a very different thing. The problem is that he's expressed on several occasions that he doesn't think trying to convince the rest of us of anything is a worthwhile effort. Coming in, expressing an opinion, and then deciding that it's not worth trying to defend is a far cry from being shut down.


I could try it out again. When I said 'I learned my lesson' I was referring to the fact that I used to put the effort into it. The issue lies in a lot of what I believe and base my opinions on has a lot to do with my Faith, so if I were to start giving examples and reasons as to for instance....why I think the American culture is kind of reaping what it's sewn....most of how I'd defend that statement is based out of what I've learned from being a Christian the past 15  years.

so in the past when I've attempted that....that type of 'defense' has been largely ignored and/or dismissed very quickly because my statements would be based off of my spiritual understanding and not this or that study or this or that poll or this or that interview. As I said, you...Bill....Brian, Chad....Adami....and a bunch others are really 'on your game' when it comes to concrete citations and 'evidence' which makes for an interesting and spirited discussion.

When "your" argument or debate point is quickly thrown out because it's 'not real' (yes I was told that before) due to being based off something I've learned from my Faith....and that happens a few times....that's where my attitude of "it's not worth it" was born.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1527 on: February 28, 2018, 08:48:14 AM »
When "your" argument or debate point is quickly thrown out because it's 'not real' (yes I was told that before) due to being based off something I've learned from my Faith....and that happens a few times....that's where my attitude of "it's not worth it" was born.

So as a non-believer (though I hate having to give a label to my "non-belief") I don't know how to reconcile your viewpoints when they are based on something I believe as being "not real" (not a term I recall using, but will run with it here). While I hope I wouldn't categorically dismiss something you posted because of such, I wouldn't necessarily know how address it when it is coming from something I consider a false premise.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1528 on: February 28, 2018, 08:51:30 AM »
The problem is that the right goes to such extraordinary lengths to live up to the perception.

I get it...this sub forum is heavily populated with democrat minded/left leaning folks. It's not difficult to figure out. If it weren't for Bill you guys would just spend the days continually stroking each other and confirming over and over how right you all are. At least he interjects and drives some topic of debate. More power to him.

I can't say I disagree with this too much.  There are a handful of other posters who lean more conservative/"right" (Sylvan comes to mind), but Stad for sure is the most vocal.  I will give EB full credit taking non-traditional view points for a lefty.

Is it possible that because there are more outspoke hardcore / FAR right-ists (and stereotypes for them) than there are far-Leftists (at least, that's my perception... correct me if I'm wrong), that moderate/strong Right-ists keep quiet at times for fear of association with the far Right-wing?  I know a lot of moderate conservatives both personally and here - Gary, you come to mind - who don't speak up much when it comes to hot political topics.

Just a thought/observation.

Personally, my opinion only, but I feel like Fox News.  Meaning, I don't feel I actually lean that far right (I don't; I'm pro-choice, I don't give a rat's ass who marries who, I'm against the death penalty, I don't reject global warming, and I could actually be talked into a single payer system) but since there are so few right-leaning voices in a sea of left, it stands out. Almost every study on the subject - and there are quite a few - have Fox News as far less biased than either CNN or MSNBC, just biased in the opposite direction.    Add to that that I abhor the "emotional" argument (and believe strongly that the left's argument is primarily emotional) and  you have a recipe for me being seen as the Rush (it is the most popular band here...) Limbaugh of DTF. 

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1529 on: February 28, 2018, 08:54:49 AM »
I'd love to see how Bill would respond to statements and arguments based on spiritual beliefs - even when they align with his viewpoints... ESPECIALLY when they align with his viewpoints  :lol!  We know how he feels when fact and process are rolled in with emotions and morals.   ;D ;)
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1530 on: February 28, 2018, 08:58:02 AM »
The strongest argument for socialism is capitalism. Discuss.

One might offer that the strongest argument for capitalism is socialism.   But either one is a ridiculous argument because it is almost wholly a tautology.   The reason for EITHER system is a function of the society's goals and values as a culture.  If you value certain values over others, you're going to lean in one direction or not.  Each has it's issues, each has it's plusses, and depending on how you look at those, you fall in one camp or another.

For me - who leans capitalist because of my deep affinity for personal responsibility and  personal accountability - I have more problem with a MIXING of the two systems than I do the systems itself.  It is difficult to have a successful socialist system when a minority is acting as an economic elite, and equally difficult to use monetary success as a reward when there is a perpetual safety net guaranteeing a minimum return (though I believe the latter is far more achievable in today's cultural climate).   

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1531 on: February 28, 2018, 09:02:58 AM »
When "your" argument or debate point is quickly thrown out because it's 'not real' (yes I was told that before) due to being based off something I've learned from my Faith....and that happens a few times....that's where my attitude of "it's not worth it" was born.

So as a non-believer (though I hate having to give a label to my "non-belief") I don't know how to reconcile your viewpoints when they are based on something I believe as being "not real" (not a term I recall using, but will run with it here). While I hope I wouldn't categorically dismiss something you posted because of such, I wouldn't necessarily know how address it when it is coming from something I consider a false premise.

and that's the crux of the issue for me when it comes to my limited participation or instances like EB pointed out where I may inject myself in a conversation....but then just say 'F' it never mind because A.) I don't want to sound 'preachy'...I'm not here to convert people and B.) When you know in large part your opinion will be dismissed...why waste the time?

I'll admit that in order to participate more AND be able to make a strong case I need to learn a method of communication to where I can express a point without it needing biblical citation to 'stand up in court'. Certainly there's a way to do that, and it's just on me to figure it out.




**the 'not real' comment came literally years ago in the old archived P/R thread from a user who no longer can post in P/R
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Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1532 on: February 28, 2018, 09:06:15 AM »
Yeah but think of all the money your boss could have!

Why with the snarky comments?  It doesn't move the conversation forward, it just highlights the disconnect of your views to the reality of the situation.   As a general proposition, if my boss is making more money than me (and in real life, he is, by the way), he's doing something I'm not to earn it. Or he's achieved something I didn't.   Or has delivered something to HIS boss to earn it that I haven't.   

In America, we are equal under the law.  We all have the same set of rights with which to operate, but one of those rights is not to "earn the same amount as everyone else of my age, gender, education, handsomeness, geography, and penis size".   I've worked very hard in my life, making certain sacrifices (and not making others).  I know, very well, that I am blessed in a number of ways, but then again, when I was working full time as a project manager in Attleboro, MA and driving to Hartford, CT three times a week to attend law school classes - I did this for four years - it wasn't about being "blessed" it was about  making choices.  Then later, when I was getting my MBA and going to classes on weekends while my wife at the time was caring for our newborn, then basically pulling all-nighters during the week to pick up the slack, it again wasn't about being "blessed".   I didn't opt to do the foreign assignment - which at that time in GE was a prerequisite for higher management - but that wasn't an egalitarian thing.  I didn't get "fucked by a rigged system", I turned down the opportunity because at that point my family came first.   

You want a "rigged system"?  The "rigged system" is the argument that "income inequality" actually means something other than a thinly disguised emotional argument for a welfare state. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1533 on: February 28, 2018, 09:15:44 AM »
I'd love to see how Bill would respond to statements and arguments based on spiritual beliefs - even when they align with his viewpoints... ESPECIALLY when they align with his viewpoints  :lol!  We know how he feels when fact and process are rolled in with emotions and morals.   ;D ;)

Well, it's a delicate situation.   I am deeply respectful of faith and faith-based ideas.  I don't post about it much, because it's a) not really anyone's bidness, and b) tends to be misunderstood coming from a guy who is admittedly so process and fact based (not at all saying my conclusions are right, but just acknowledging that I do rely on statistics more than "feel good" options, and can seem cruel in doing so), but I have a rather strong belief in God and spirituality.  I have experiences in my life that Penn Gillette can probably shoot all kinds of holes through, but that have impacted me deeply, and leave me no doubt that we are not a series of random collisions of atoms.    Where I run afoul of traditional religion is in the fallibility of man.  I don't at all trust the guy that sells used cars Monday through Saturday, has a wife and four kids and a secretary on the side getting up on Sunday and telling me what I should believe because the "Bible says so".  To me, the Bible was written by man, and so is at best only a reasonable approximation of what God intended (assuming of course that we even know what God intends; I happen to believe that he/she/it is so "advanced" (not the word I want but it'll do) that our human brains can't really adequately grasp the scope and magnitude of his/her/its cognitive abilities).

When confronted, I usually try to acknowledge the role of faith, but add that any faith has to account for the world we live in, and the information we have OR POSIT A REASONABLE EXPLANATION WHY IT SHOULDN'T.   Whether it's me, Gary, the Pope, Neal Morse or Anton LaVay, "because I believe it" is not a defensible explanation in and of itself, in my humble opinion.     

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1534 on: February 28, 2018, 09:16:01 AM »
From my POV, it seems whenever GMD says anything in the PR forum, he gets shut down immediately.
Yeah, I don't see that at all. He might get called out for his opinion, as any of the rest of us do. That's a very different thing. The problem is that he's expressed on several occasions that he doesn't think trying to convince the rest of us of anything is a worthwhile effort. Coming in, expressing an opinion, and then deciding that it's not worth trying to defend is a far cry from being shut down.


I could try it out again. When I said 'I learned my lesson' I was referring to the fact that I used to put the effort into it. The issue lies in a lot of what I believe and base my opinions on has a lot to do with my Faith, so if I were to start giving examples and reasons as to for instance....why I think the American culture is kind of reaping what it's sewn....most of how I'd defend that statement is based out of what I've learned from being a Christian the past 15  years.

so in the past when I've attempted that....that type of 'defense' has been largely ignored and/or dismissed very quickly because my statements would be based off of my spiritual understanding and not this or that study or this or that poll or this or that interview. As I said, you...Bill....Brian, Chad....Adami....and a bunch others are really 'on your game' when it comes to concrete citations and 'evidence' which makes for an interesting and spirited discussion.

When "your" argument or debate point is quickly thrown out because it's 'not real' (yes I was told that before) due to being based off something I've learned from my Faith....and that happens a few times....that's where my attitude of "it's not worth it" was born.

If it means anything, I genuinely miss your presence in this sub. You never seemed hesitant to say something during Obama's term (quite vocal on occasion), but since Trump was elected, you've kind of ghosted on this place for the most part. I can get passionate about stuff in here from time to time, most recently my rant on Trump's supporters (not to be confused with those who voted for him) that pissed Bosk off pretty good. Not for nothing though, you're an intelligent, successful father, who's just trying to do right by his family and community. Despite your stances on certain things, I value your viewpoint a hell of a lot more than just some random asshat on Fox News spouting bullshit he saw on InfoWars, and I actually think we agree, at least in part, on more things than we disagree on. I actually used to be way further left than I am today, and it's because of discussions with guys like you, Bosk, Stads.. most of the posters here really, that have positioned me much closer to center. I love the fact that this sub exists because there aren't many places online where you could have 45+ pages of discussion on a topic without shit completely hitting the fan.

I try my best to stick to data while not being condescending, biased, or emotional, but sometimes I don't think it can be avoided. Take for example the chicken or the egg thread that Architeuthis made a while back. My stance on that thread was in no way taken for the sole purpose of putting down religion or its followers. I just don't know any other way to make the arguments I'm making without basically saying that most religious positions on the matter do not align with artifacts. Every single piece of evidence we have goes against Architeuthis' claims of  "I believe dolphins have always been dolphins, whales have always been whales, Sharks have always been sharks". I don't know how to refute that without offending or belittling the beliefs of someone with a creationist's viewpoint.

Please don't take this as an attack, but your replies can sometime come off just as dismissive to those on the left, and I think that was especially true when Obama was in office. Take this recent post for example "Please stop making so much sense...." https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41707.msg2408666#msg2408666. I'm actually in near complete agreement with you and Kaos on that point, but your comment comes off as though there must be something wrong with my ability to reason if I don't see it that way. It comes off as though you assume I'm somehow deficient in rational thought if I'm not in complete agreement. If that's how you really think (I don't think it is), that's fine. As far as the internet goes, that's incredibly tame and I'd take that kind of discussion all day long. I don't think that post was a dig or targetting, but it does come off as a little dismissive to those who don't think as you do.

I'd still like you to create the thread you were talking about here;
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41707.msg2408013#msg2408013
I think it'd make for a good discussion.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 09:33:34 AM by Chino »

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1535 on: February 28, 2018, 09:51:34 AM »
From my POV, it seems whenever GMD says anything in the PR forum, he gets shut down immediately.
Yeah, I don't see that at all. He might get called out for his opinion, as any of the rest of us do. That's a very different thing. The problem is that he's expressed on several occasions that he doesn't think trying to convince the rest of us of anything is a worthwhile effort. Coming in, expressing an opinion, and then deciding that it's not worth trying to defend is a far cry from being shut down.


I could try it out again. When I said 'I learned my lesson' I was referring to the fact that I used to put the effort into it. The issue lies in a lot of what I believe and base my opinions on has a lot to do with my Faith, so if I were to start giving examples and reasons as to for instance....why I think the American culture is kind of reaping what it's sewn....most of how I'd defend that statement is based out of what I've learned from being a Christian the past 15  years.

so in the past when I've attempted that....that type of 'defense' has been largely ignored and/or dismissed very quickly because my statements would be based off of my spiritual understanding and not this or that study or this or that poll or this or that interview. As I said, you...Bill....Brian, Chad....Adami....and a bunch others are really 'on your game' when it comes to concrete citations and 'evidence' which makes for an interesting and spirited discussion.

When "your" argument or debate point is quickly thrown out because it's 'not real' (yes I was told that before) due to being based off something I've learned from my Faith....and that happens a few times....that's where my attitude of "it's not worth it" was born.

If it means anything, I genuinely miss your presence in this sub. You never seemed hesitant to say something during Obama's term (quite vocal on occasion), but since Trump as been elected, you've kind of ghosted on this place for the most part. I can get passionate about stuff in here from time to time, most recently my rant on Trump's supporters (not to be confused with those who voted for him) that pissed Bosk off pretty good. But not for nothing, you're an intelligent, successful father, who's just trying to do right by his family and community. Despite your stances on certain things, I value your viewpoint a hell of a lot more than just some random asshate on Fox News spouting bullshit, and I actually think we agree, at least in part, on more things than we disagree on. I actually used to be way further left than I am today, and it's because of discussion with guys like you, Bosk, Stads.. most of the posters here really, that have positioned me much closer to center. I love the fact that this sub exists because there aren't many places on line where you could have 45+ pages of discussion on a topic without shit completely hitting the fan.

I try my best to stick to data while not being condescending, biased, or emotional, but sometimes I don't think it can be avoided. Take for example the chicken or the egg thread that Architeuthis made a while back. My stance on that thread was in no way taken for the sole purpose of putting down religion or its followers. I just don't know any other way to make the arguments I'm making without basically saying thatthat most religious positions on the matter do not align with artifacts. Every single piece of evidence we have goes against Architeuthis' claims of  "I believe dolphins have always been dolphins, whales have always been whales, Sharks have always been sharks". I don't know how to refute that without offending or belittling the beliefs of someone with a creationist's viewpoint.

Please don't take this as an attack, but your replies can sometime come off just as dismissive to those on the left, and I think that was especially true when Obama was in office. Take this recent post for example "Please stop making so much sense...." https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41707.msg2408666#msg2408666. I'm actually in near complete agreement with you and Kaos on that point, but your comment comes off as though there must be something wrong with my ability to reason if I don't see it that way. It comes off as though you assume I'm somehow deficient in rational thought if I'm not in complete agreement. If that's how you really think (I don't think it is), that's fine. As far as the internet goes, that's incredibly tame and I'd take that kind of discussion all day long. I don't think that post was a dig or targetting, but it does come off as a little dismissive to those who don't think as you do.

I'd still like you to create the thread you were talking about here;
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41707.msg2408013#msg2408013
I think it'd make for a good discussion.

Brian...totally get where you're coming from when you mention that 'please stop making sense' post. That was a very passive aggressive post on my part, completely 'troll' level type post. That's what I get for lurking and not participating. It was fueled by a frustration that is based off of what I see as the majority of posters in the P/R being 'left leaning' just tearing into 'right leaning' folks. whether that is completely true or not is irrelevant being that, that's how I've seen it and that's what led to that 'cheap shot' per say...because I completely see your point of view on it. For that, I'm sorry.

And, you hit the nail on the head with me just disappearing from the conversation and that is in large part because, I simply don't want to be seen as a Trump supporter. I voted for him,  yes....and I wish to God that there would have been better candidates or that Biden would have ran for the Dems but there was simply no way I was voting for Hilary. zero chance. We've discussed her at length so there's no reason to keep going....but in my eyes I looked at it as who gets to nominate a Supreme Court Justice and Trump took it for me in that case.

Being conservative I actually haven't had much of an issue with some of the things that Trump has done. I'm anxious to see how the Tax reform turns out....certainly it's helped big business but I do think that it's (will help) helped some of the targeted classes as well. Consumer confidence is high since he's been in office, the cutting of regulations has helped small businesses feel more confident....I think there are some good signs.

The problem is Trump's a D-Bag on the Master level. I don't think he's evil by any means but the dude is just a D-bag. So, if/when anyone 'agrees' with something he's done it seems to be an automatic assumption that your a supporter of his....and I really want to avoid being seen as a supporter of 'him'. I support some of the more conservative approaches and ideas he'd look to implement...but he's a hard President to get behind. Even Obama....who I did not agree with at all....has a personality and demeanor that you can support and like. You know he's probably a genuinely good dude. Trump not so much. Seems like a sleeze ball. So yeah...I disappeared from the conversation because I just don't want to be associated with him despite still being more 'right' minded and agreeing with some of his stances. Like I said in an earlier post....maybe that's on me to express myself better to delineate between 'supporting' Trump and just liking a particular thing.

To Address this point:

 
I try my best to stick to data while not being condescending, biased, or emotional, but sometimes I don't think it can be avoided. Take for example the chicken or the egg thread that Architeuthis made a while back. My stance on that thread was in no way taken for the sole purpose of putting down religion or its followers. I just don't know any other way to make the arguments I'm making without basically saying that most religious positions on the matter do not align with artifacts. Every single piece of evidence we have goes against Architeuthis' claims of  "I believe dolphins have always been dolphins, whales have always been whales, Sharks have always been sharks". I don't know how to refute that without offending or belittling the beliefs of someone with a creationist's viewpoint.

I've always thought you've handled the religion vs. science 'debate' well. I don't think there's any confusion as to where you stand and what you believe and despite that I've never personally been offended by what you've said or felt attacked in any way. And, just as a side note....I personally feel that the God I know and Love is tough to comprehend and fathom with simple human minds...i don't think we are supposed to 'get it' or understand it all....but I'd expect that given the insane science and physics that go on in the universe, I don't see how he wouldn't use the same type of approach creating life on earth. It's really the only way someone/something like 'him' would do it and I don't see the two viewpoints as competing viewpoints...just complimentary and both pointing to the true great nature of God.



 
I'd still like you to create the thread you were talking about here;
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=41707.msg2408013#msg2408013
I think it'd make for a good discussion.

I still intend to do this. But as I mentioned, I need to really get some time set aside and make sure the inaugural post clearly states my point/positions to then drive the conversation. 
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1536 on: February 28, 2018, 10:07:46 AM »
From my POV, it seems whenever GMD says anything in the PR forum, he gets shut down immediately.
Yeah, I don't see that at all. He might get called out for his opinion, as any of the rest of us do. That's a very different thing. The problem is that he's expressed on several occasions that he doesn't think trying to convince the rest of us of anything is a worthwhile effort. Coming in, expressing an opinion, and then deciding that it's not worth trying to defend is a far cry from being shut down.

Sure that's all true too, but it seems like there's always 2 or 3 immediate follow up posts rebuking his.  I get it, his posts are emotionally charged lots of times, but sometimes I do feel like his posts get more negative attention than they deserve.  Just my opinion.  I know you often go back and forth with him and I wasn't meaning to single you or anyone out by saying how I perceive it.  You know I respect your posts and I think GMD does as well. 

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1537 on: February 28, 2018, 10:18:56 AM »
If it means anything, I genuinely miss your presence in this sub. You never seemed hesitant to say something during Obama's term (quite vocal on occasion), but since Trump was elected, you've kind of ghosted on this place for the most part. I can get passionate about stuff in here from time to time, most recently my rant on Trump's supporters (not to be confused with those who voted for him) that pissed Bosk off pretty good. Not for nothing though, you're an intelligent, successful father, who's just trying to do right by his family and community. Despite your stances on certain things, I value your viewpoint a hell of a lot more than just some random asshat on Fox News spouting bullshit he saw on InfoWars, and I actually think we agree, at least in part, on more things than we disagree on. I actually used to be way further left than I am today, and it's because of discussions with guys like you, Bosk, Stads.. most of the posters here really, that have positioned me much closer to center. I love the fact that this sub exists because there aren't many places online where you could have 45+ pages of discussion on a topic without shit completely hitting the fan.

Beautifully written Brian, and the bolded part applies to this guy too.  P/R is my escape from my echo chamber - I certainly wouldn't be having these kinds of discussions on FB or the Twatter... for many different reasons.  Despite how some/many/all of us have at some point taken a post or two not how it was intended (and I've delivered my fair share in that regard), I appreciate and respect everyone as individuals.  Certain comments might not get that general appreciation (and I've delivered my fair share in that regard  :biggrin:), but I'm truly thankful for this outlet to have these kinds of discussions. 

So, group hug everyone.  :hug:
Can you imagine some alien race comes to a large nebula they've never seen before, and it just turns out it's the Federation's dumping ground for space-smile?
And TAC can suck it  :biggrin:, this is heavy in all the right places.  :tup

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1538 on: February 28, 2018, 11:12:41 AM »
And, you hit the nail on the head with me just disappearing from the conversation and that is in large part because, I simply don't want to be seen as a Trump supporter. I voted for him,  yes....and I wish to God that there would have been better candidates or that Biden would have ran for the Dems but there was simply no way I was voting for Hilary. zero chance. We've discussed her at length so there's no reason to keep going....but in my eyes I looked at it as who gets to nominate a Supreme Court Justice and Trump took it for me in that case.

Being conservative I actually haven't had much of an issue with some of the things that Trump has done. I'm anxious to see how the Tax reform turns out....certainly it's helped big business but I do think that it's (will help) helped some of the targeted classes as well. Consumer confidence is high since he's been in office, the cutting of regulations has helped small businesses feel more confident....I think there are some good signs.

The problem is Trump's a D-Bag on the Master level. I don't think he's evil by any means but the dude is just a D-bag. So, if/when anyone 'agrees' with something he's done it seems to be an automatic assumption that your a supporter of his....and I really want to avoid being seen as a supporter of 'him'. I support some of the more conservative approaches and ideas he'd look to implement...but he's a hard President to get behind. Even Obama....who I did not agree with at all....has a personality and demeanor that you can support and like. You know he's probably a genuinely good dude. Trump not so much. Seems like a sleeze ball. So yeah...I disappeared from the conversation because I just don't want to be associated with him despite still being more 'right' minded and agreeing with some of his stances. Like I said in an earlier post....maybe that's on me to express myself better to delineate between 'supporting' Trump and just liking a particular thing.


Can I steal this?  Other than the "disappearing from the conversation" and "voting for him" (I voted Libertarian), I could have written that.  I would have voted for Biden in a heartbeat. And holy mackerel, is Trump "unlikable".  But that doesn't make you a good President (or not).   Jimmy Carter is by all accounts perhaps the nicest guy to ever hold that office, but he is widely considered one of our worst Presidents ever.   

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #1539 on: March 06, 2018, 05:14:54 AM »
Why do you presume everyone here is middle/upper class? Why don't we talk to those middle/upper class people solely about their "privilege," and not to all straight white males about their "privilege?" That chart didn't say anything about economic status.

And the nonsense about "native English speaker" and "Canadian citizen." Because I was born in America (in my case) and speak English I should recognize the "privilege" I have over those who immigrated here and haven't learned the language?

And where did all the funnies go??

I'd say you might have missed the point on privilege. I'd suggest reading up on it, but I feel like you're pretty dead set against it.


@ Chris... given that it was the Ontario Institute of Technology, the "Canadian Citizen" box was to delineate for immigrants and refugees - which we welcome a lot of, from a lot of different nations.  I'm sure the same could be done with "American Citizen".

I do think "privilege" is a terrible word to use for this concept, but that the concept has merit.  My issue is that the people that meet these criteria very well may have a pathway to certain advantages (status, wealth, security etc...) that others might have to battle harder for, but that doesn't mean that 'privileged' people A) don't still have to work hard to achieve those advantages, and B) are assured those advantages.  It also sends a dangerous message that success will come to 'privileged' people, so why should anyone not 'privileged' try... or for those 'non-privileged', they can point to that lack of privilege as the reason for their lack of success.
Can you imagine some alien race comes to a large nebula they've never seen before, and it just turns out it's the Federation's dumping ground for space-smile?
And TAC can suck it  :biggrin:, this is heavy in all the right places.  :tup