Author Topic: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man  (Read 55941 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #105 on: July 27, 2012, 07:09:19 PM »
I see American society far away from this bogeyman that gets called in every time.
People also horrendously underestimate the detrimental effect to society events like this one and the Aurora one have. Living in constant fear of your surroundings is a price that never gets factored into these discussions.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #106 on: July 27, 2012, 07:18:26 PM »
I'm with rumby. I had an experience recently that had me thinking about how paranoid my cultural zeitgeist has made me, and it really made me realize how poisonous American society as a whole is. If this is what freedom is supposed to be, I won't have it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #107 on: July 27, 2012, 07:28:10 PM »
I see American society far away from this bogeyman that gets called in every time.
People also horrendously underestimate the detrimental effect to society events like this one and the Aurora one have. Living in constant fear of your surroundings is a price that never gets factored into these discussions.

rumborak
I don't live in fear of my surroundings at all.  I try to maintain some vigilance, but that's really just common sense.  I was no less vigilant walking around in Berlin or Hamburg, either.  I don't have much trouble recognizing that the likelihood of my being shot and killed by a bad guy is remarkably low.  To be honest, I'm probably more afraid of cops than random murders. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #108 on: July 27, 2012, 07:48:43 PM »
No offense EB, but your thing with cops is rather irrational.

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #109 on: July 27, 2012, 08:03:30 PM »
Not really.  I'm not expressing paranoia or a particularly strong concern about them.  In the context of this discussion, it's really just the fact that I'm much more likely to come in contact with one of them than a random, gun-toting sociopath.  I don't trust them or like them, and given their genuine sense of paranoia, I'm not real comfortable dealing with them. 
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2012, 08:07:12 PM »
Actually I agree with Rumby Bart about your thing with cops, and it's not just based on this thread, but you seem to have a major distrust of all of them to the point of equating them to the murderers/thieves/whathaveyou that they are supposed to protect you from.

I mean I remember once breaking into a highschool in the middle of the night while the cops drove by, looked at me and then kept going. I know cops screw up a lot, but they generally do their job I'm pretty sure.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2012, 08:20:03 PM »
Not to mention it only proves my point. Well, rumby's point really, but also the jump-off point I was trying to make as a result of it.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2012, 08:21:39 PM »
Not to mention it only proves my point. Well, rumby's point really, but also the jump-off point I was trying to make as a result of it.

What?
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2012, 08:22:22 PM »
How poisonous American society as a whole is/has become. People are just unbelievably afraid of each other, and it really comes up to the culture.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2012, 08:24:19 PM »
How poisonous American society as a whole is/has become. People are just unbelievably afraid of each other, and it really comes up to the culture.

Somewhat. There really isn't an "American society or culture" per se. Northerners and Southerners are quite different even today.


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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2012, 08:25:33 PM »
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case. I think all Americans have this paranoia to some degree, and I think it's because the root of this fear runs deeper than that very divide.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2012, 08:29:11 PM »
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case. I think all Americans have this paranoia to some degree, and I think it's because the root of this fear runs deeper than that very divide.

Well it matters to a degree, I mean I bet you won't hear about a New Yorker shooting someone for a stupid reason.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2012, 08:35:16 PM »
Yeah, my comment was actually meant to drift away from that somewhat to what that expectation has done. I feel like culturally Americans almost expect people to do terrible things to them (whether violent gun crimes or breaking into their house and robbing them), people are really wary of each other and it does away with the neighborly aspect essential to the health of a society.

Once again I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well, but I feel like our culture is characterized by a general lack of faith in human decency, and when you don't feel like you can trust the cops (something that our culture also inculcates in us which I believe comes from earlier), that doesn't leave you with a lot of options. The only person you can trust at that point is yourself.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2012, 08:43:09 PM »
Yeah, my comment was actually meant to drift away from that somewhat to what that expectation has done. I feel like culturally Americans almost expect people to do terrible things to them (whether violent gun crimes or breaking into their house and robbing them), people are really wary of each other and it does away with the neighborly aspect essential to the health of a society.

Once again I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well, but I feel like our culture is characterized by a general lack of faith in human decency, and when you don't feel like you can trust the cops (something that our culture also inculcates in us which I believe comes from earlier), that doesn't leave you with a lot of options. The only person you can trust at that point is yourself.

This post brought to you by Ron Paul.

But seriously, I agree to a point. I don't think everyone is like that but it does seem to be a growing mindset of "Everyone will hurt me if I don't defend myself at all costs".
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2012, 08:52:16 PM »
I mean that last bit is part of my theoretical framework. Whether only being able to trust yourself reflects reality or not, society can't function that way. That's one of the mortal flaws of libertarianism; its foundation is built entirely upon distrust of your fellow man, and that's a terrible basis on which to establish a society. No society could ever last like that.

And I don't think it's a mindset of such a degree that everyone's out there looking to arm themselves; I just think people don't trust each other and that's eating away at our sense of community nationwide. Maybe Americans won't become outwardly hostile to one another, but as I said it makes them less neighborly, and it's hard to fix a sinking ship if each member of the crew thinks the other is going to toss him overboard.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2012, 09:08:56 PM »
Coming from another country, it was definitely a distinct thing I noticed in the US. They come together when they have a common foe, but outside of that Americans don't really like or care all that much for each other.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2012, 09:31:24 PM »
I just think people don't trust each other and that's eating away at our sense of community nationwide.

I think you got the order slightly confused, though I'd say it's mostly a loop. Our lack of sense of a community is what makes us not trust each other.

Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2012, 11:12:12 PM »
Actually I agree with Rumby Bart about your thing with cops, and it's not just based on this thread, but you seem to have a major distrust of all of them to the point of equating them to the murderers/thieves/whathaveyou that they are supposed to protect you from.

I mean I remember once breaking into a highschool in the middle of the night while the cops drove by, looked at me and then kept going. I know cops screw up a lot, but they generally do their job I'm pretty sure.
I don't equate cops with those people at all.  Obviously, there are some crooked cops, but I consider them the exception.  My concern is more about a unique form of dirtiness that's the normal result of putting people into their position.  Their job is highly adversarial, and by and large, you're either one of them, you're a sheep or you're a wolf who's fixing to shoot them in the face. 

If you're one of them, which is none of us, then you're always in the right and the law can't apply to you.  Tonight, if a cop from Dallas pulls over an off-duty LVPD cop who blows a .15, he's going to give him a ride home.  His log is going to show he assisted a stranded motorist.  They're brothers and what they do is too important to ruin over a possible lapse in judgement. 

As for everybody else, it's his call as to whether or not you get the sheep or the wolf treatment, and they default to wolf; better safe than sorry.  Next time you get a ticket, notice how he keeps his hand on his gun as he approaches.  You're bad before you're deemed acceptable.  For the most part, I think they do a pretty good job of sorting out the good guys from the bad.  This isn't usually a problem.  Unfortunately, not all of them do, and whether it's because they're assholes or just misread the situation, plenty of people wind up having terrible experiences with bad consequences and nonexistent recourse.  Once a situation turns ugly, you're fucked.  Your word doesn't mean anything anymore because theirs counts more, and there are always crimes you can be charged with. 

Consider homeless guy in So-Cal who got beat/tazed to death.  It wasn't one psycho cop who did it.  It was a situation that escalated out of control because of the mentality involved in the people handling the situation.  While homicides like that aren't the norm, when they do happen is usually a result of police just being police.  I suspect that all the cops that beat him to death thought they were handling the situation perfectly appropriately at the time.  From what I've read, most still think that. 

As for locale, you will see a very big difference.  Most of my younger years were spent watching corruption and scandals dealing with DPD and it's good ole boy system.  Factor in Henry Wade's drunk, crooked ass and some good, ole fashioned racism, and it was a pretty dicey scene down here.  Believe me when I tell you that nobody in Dallas was ever taught that the police are your friends. 
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #123 on: July 28, 2012, 06:17:56 AM »
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.

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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #124 on: July 28, 2012, 08:58:06 AM »
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.

from a non urban area in the north, I'll say that we generally like each other around here.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #125 on: July 28, 2012, 09:18:33 AM »
I don't think the North/South divide even matters in this case.
I think it does.  I don't see anyone living in paranoia down here.  "Southern hospitality" isn't just a catch-phrase.  We generally like each other down here.  And, I'm guessing, in most other parts of the country that aren't urban areas.

My understanding is that they all like each other, because most of them have the same attitude about things.   Try to bring in new ideas....

In other words...they have the same paranoia, just on a collective basis, not an individual basis. 

I've been to Texas, and I agree they have the most open and friendly atmosphere of any place I've ever been.   But I have heard that it is not pleasant if a person has a whole lot of liberal ideals and tries to live there. 
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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #126 on: July 28, 2012, 09:32:05 AM »
There are plenty of liberals in Ft.Worth/Dallas
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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #127 on: July 28, 2012, 10:47:23 AM »
I've been to Texas, and I agree they have the most open and friendly atmosphere of any place I've ever been.   But I have heard that it is not pleasant if a person has a whole lot of liberal ideals and tries to live there.
Nonsense.  Aside from all the urban liberals that Snapple referred to, the rural conservatives are even more likely to be super-friendly to you.  They might talk shit about you behind your back, but they're still going to bend over backwards to be friendly.  Keep in mind, most people down here don't really volunteer their ideology, except in the way of bumper stickers.  If I move into a house in Sugarland, with a Hope bumper sticker, the neighbors are still going to show up with pie, talk about lawn care, and invite me over for football on Sundays.  They just won't ask me about my politics as it might make it harder to keep up the good neighbor demeanor, which is pretty important down here. 
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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #128 on: July 28, 2012, 11:32:57 AM »
I've been to Texas, and I agree they have the most open and friendly atmosphere of any place I've ever been.   But I have heard that it is not pleasant if a person has a whole lot of liberal ideals and tries to live there.
Nonsense.  Aside from all the urban liberals that Snapple referred to, the rural conservatives are even more likely to be super-friendly to you.  They might talk shit about you behind your back, but they're still going to bend over backwards to be friendly.  Keep in mind, most people down here don't really volunteer their ideology, except in the way of bumper stickers.  If I move into a house in Sugarland, with a Hope bumper sticker, the neighbors are still going to show up with pie, talk about lawn care, and invite me over for football on Sundays.  They just won't ask me about my politics as it might make it harder to keep up the good neighbor demeanor, which is pretty important down here.


You're making Texas sound fucking wonderful.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #129 on: July 28, 2012, 03:17:48 PM »
It's exactly as he describes from my experience.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline rumborak

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #130 on: July 28, 2012, 03:36:23 PM »
There is definitely strong "localism" in the US. But, correct me if I'm wrong, if a Texan was asked to pay taxes to subsidize something in Massachusetts, it would be met with a resounding "fuck no".

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Offline El Barto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #131 on: July 28, 2012, 05:57:22 PM »
If a Texan were asked to pay taxes to subsidize a guy across the street, he'd say fuck no.  It's nothing against the neighbor or the Yankee.  There's a principle involved, and honestly, that principle would apply if the roles were reversed.  However, if asked, he might well want to help out.
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #132 on: July 28, 2012, 06:05:53 PM »
I was actually really close to moving to Texas. In fact I think what stopped me was the real estate guy was totally pointless and made my visit and search for a home a horrible experience.
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #133 on: July 28, 2012, 06:10:41 PM »
really love that place...if it weren't for perfect temps, year round sunshine, mountains and beaches of SoCal, I would gladly be back

Offline XJDenton

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #134 on: July 29, 2012, 05:27:47 PM »
On the subject of gun control:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

This is an interesting one. 3D printing is going to make things very interesting in a lot of areas in the next few years.

Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #135 on: July 29, 2012, 05:33:15 PM »
On the subject of gun control:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markgibbs/2012/07/28/the-end-of-gun-control/

This is an interesting one. 3D printing is going to make things very interesting in a lot of areas in the next few years.

Wow. You could just print all the parts of the gun and assemble it yourself (skimmed the article, but I assumes this is what it was getting at)
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2012, 06:03:33 PM »
Just youtubed 3D printing and ...........holy crap! That is some amazing technology.


Although I doubt the day will come any time soon where normal civilians have one handy.
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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #137 on: July 29, 2012, 06:06:11 PM »
Just youtubed 3D printing and ...........holy crap! That is some amazing technology.


Although I doubt the day will come any time soon where normal civilians have one handy.

Fleshlights without the shame of ordering one online?
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Offline Adami

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #138 on: July 29, 2012, 06:07:58 PM »
Just youtubed 3D printing and ...........holy crap! That is some amazing technology.


Although I doubt the day will come any time soon where normal civilians have one handy.

Fleshlights without the shame of ordering one online?

Dude you're married.

Obviously if 3d printing became common place, I'm making an entire god damn army of transformer toys.
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Offline snapple

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Re: P/R side chat thread, v. I am not a number I am a free man
« Reply #139 on: July 29, 2012, 06:14:05 PM »
Obviously I'm married. I was trying to find practicality for you.
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