Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?

[Orbert]

It's like any other business.  Maybe it shouldn't be a business in the first place, being that it is part of an institution of higher education and would literally not exist without it.  But once you have coaches or any other staff who must be paid, it grows from there.  Pretty soon you have a 50,000-seat stadium that's full every Saturday with ticket holders who buy hot dogs and drinks and jerseys and T-shirts and at some point it is a huge business and a lot of people's jobs are tied up in that.  Also, I don't claim to know how it all works, but I would assume that contracts are set up so that a percentage of all that money comes back to the school, and that's real money.  So when you make decisions, you do have to take it into account.

The career of a janitor vs the career of the head coach who has filled that 50,000-seat stadium every Saturday for decades?  No brainer.  Sad but true.  The career of that head coach vs crimes against humanity?  No brainer for most of us, but unfortunately because one is tied a huge amounts of money coming into the school and the other is (mostly) hearsay, things get muddy very quickly.  Also sad, but also true.

[Cool Chris]

Looks like PSU is going to leave it up for now. I agree with them at this point. Emotions are way too high now. Let the dust settle a bit.

...student athletes...

:sick:
:vomit:

Where's the dude blowing chunks?

[Sigz]

Except that sports really isn't the cash cow that it's supposed to be for most schools. Only 22 schools in Division 1 (there's over a 100 total) actually make a profit off of their sports program. Even looking just at football, only 58% of Div 1 football teams are profitable.

[theseoafs]

Except that sports really isn't the cash cow that it's supposed to be for most schools. Only 22 schools in Division 1 (there's over a 100 total) actually make a profit off of their sports program. Even looking just at football, only 58% of Div 1 football teams are profitable.

Yeah, that's my primary problem with the system.  If most schools with athletic programs got back more money than they invested, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

[cramx3]

Most schools don't profit, but the income is used to support the athletic budget off all the sports. I know that if PSU football stopped, the funding to support the smaller sports such as fencing would stop.

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

I voted 'No' on accident.

If they are going to remodel the showers and work out facilities at PSU, then the statue should go also.  To leave it up is even worse than leaving the facilities unchanged.  It's a symbol of shame for these poor children - why even try to justify leaving it?

[Cool Chris]

Except that sports really isn't the cash cow that it's supposed to be for most schools. Only 22 schools in Division 1 (there's over a 100 total) actually make a profit off of their sports program. Even looking just at football, only 58% of Div 1 football teams are profitable.

This probably doesn't take in to account the massive support these big time programs get from their boosters and alumni.

[cramx3]

The Paterno family is hiring experts to review the Freeh report.... in some ways I like it as more transparency and information is good, but in some ways i feel the Paternoster are acting desperate when they should just be quiet.

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

When a culture deifies an individual, everyone tends to get a little crazy.

[rumborak]

The Paterno family is hiring experts to review the Freeh report.... in some ways I like it as more transparency and information is good, but in some ways i feel the Paternoster are acting desperate when they should just be quiet.

They will just try to save whatever there is to save of his reputation. Not particularly surprised.

rumborak

[Priest of Syrinx]

Why would he sign that?  Because he was aware of some wrongdoing?  Fine.

The situation is still similar.  Are you honoring the man or honoring his accomplishments?  Are his accomplishments somehow negated by later revelations of his character?

Why?  I'm guessing because Rose knew if the Dowd Report were released to the public, he could no longer keep denying that he bet on baseball.  So Rose signed the deal.  If he didn't, he most likely would not have been inducted into the HoF anyway, and would have received a laughably small % of the vote, which he would have found humiliating. *

There is wording in the baseball HoF eligibility that talks about character, laughable as that may be.

There is also precedent.  Shoeless Joe Jackson, who had a HoF caliber career, is not in the HoF because of the accusation - not proof - that he took money to throw the World Series.

The point is, folks who commit "crimes" against their sport are often treated more harshly within their sport than athletes who commit crimes against humanity.

* Rose actually did 'fess up a few years ago, he said he always bet on the Reds to win.  I believe he is still on MLB's ineligible list.

[Dr. DTVT]

The Paterno family is hiring experts to review the Freeh report.... in some ways I like it as more transparency and information is good, but in some ways i feel the Paternoster are acting desperate when they should just be quiet.

They will just try to save whatever there is to save of his reputation. Not particularly surprised.

rumborak

Honestly, I think they do more harm by launching their own investigation.  When Freeh was selected, there was a group of people who felt he would actually go light on Joe Paterno because of various shared affiliations (namely, Paterno was a personal friend of Bush I, the same guy who appointed Freeh to his FBI position), and in hind sight I don't think anybody could argue Freeh played favorites.  People who fight allegations almost always lose in the court of public opinion even if they are later cleared.  The Paterno's need to try to move on and Jay needs to find his next coaching gig and not getting on national TV and making a fool of himself and torpedoing what little chance he has of making a career in coaching he has left.

[cramx3]

The Paterno family is hiring experts to review the Freeh report.... in some ways I like it as more transparency and information is good, but in some ways i feel the Paternoster are acting desperate when they should just be quiet.

They will just try to save whatever there is to save of his reputation. Not particularly surprised.

rumborak

Honestly, I think they do more harm by launching their own investigation.  When Freeh was selected, there was a group of people who felt he would actually go light on Joe Paterno because of various shared affiliations (namely, Paterno was a personal friend of Bush I, the same guy who appointed Freeh to his FBI position), and in hind sight I don't think anybody could argue Freeh played favorites.  People who fight allegations almost always lose in the court of public opinion even if they are later cleared.  The Paterno's need to try to move on and Jay needs to find his next coaching gig and not getting on national TV and making a fool of himself and torpedoing what little chance he has of making a career in coaching he has left.

Jay, while seems like a nice guy, is not a qualified coach.  He ruined PSU's offense once he became a coach and was only a coach because of his father.  He will not be coaching again in Div 1.

[Dr. DTVT]

I didn't say he was a good one, but he could still go to D 2 and be successful.  One of the better D2 coaches in history was the guy who followed Bowden at West Virginia.  Went to IUP and built a national power in the late 80s to early mid 90s.

What else is Jay going to do at this stage of his life?  Bag groceries?

[cramx3]

I didn't say he was a good one, but he could still go to D 2 and be successful.  One of the better D2 coaches in history was the guy who followed Bowden at West Virginia.  Went to IUP and built a national power in the late 80s to early mid 90s.

What else is Jay going to do at this stage of his life?  Bag groceries?

Lol, yes. Seriously though, I believe he said he wouldn't coach anymore. He used to write Columbus in the local paper so maybe that will be something for him to pursue.

[cramx3]

Rumor is the statue is coming downthis weekend, possibly tonight.

[Neon]

Two questions:


 - Why does anyone think the Football team should be punished?  What did they do?  Why are they responsible?  The people responsible are already gone, right?  What is punishing the team other than a show of wrath?

You are an employee there.  Teacher, coach, administrator.  It doesn't matter.  The employees of that school had knowledge and did noting and the school deserves everything and anything.

I don't necessarily agree with that.  The people who were in charge and the people who knew should be removed, yes.  But I personally don't think the team itself shouldn't be punished.  The players and other staffers who didn't know anything didn't do anything wrong.  You know who I feel sorry for in this whole mess?  (Obviously other than Sandusky's victims)...but I feel really terrible for the current students of Penn State.  All of those members of the team whose potential shots at the NFL have been basically obliterated.  All of those students who have already paid tuition, whose college careers will now be nowhere near as fun or as fulfilling as those students just a few years older than they are.  I live in the Philly area so this issue probably hits a bit closer to home around here than for most...many, many people in this area wind up going to Penn State (I did not).  Football at Penn State isn't just "something to do" on Saturdays.  It's an integral part of the experience there.   Could you imagine if this had happened at Notre Dame?  It would probably be an even bigger scandal than it is now.

As for my opinion of Joe Paterno- I really just don't know what to think.  The man coached and influenced so many in such a positive way.  He basically WAS Penn State.  And I heard that he did go to a higher authority with what he knew (or what he suspected) on the Sandusky thing.  Whether this is true or not, I don't know.  But if he did go to a higher power, then he was accused of not following up with it.  Part of me thinks maybe he didn't do much else because he was covering up for his friend.  I realize that that sounds ludicrous, and it absolutely is- after all, how could you continue to be friends with someone who was doing that to children?  Obviously if I found out one of my friends was raping kids that would be the end of our friendship and I'd call the police. 

But maybe that's what this boils down to.  How far would you go to protect your friends?  Remember that scene in Goodfellas when he's coming out of his first trip to court and everyone is cheering him because he "kept his fuckin' mouth shut?" I'm absolutely not suggesting that Joe Paterno was involved with the mob, but I can't help but think maybe he had some of that old-school Italian mentality.   

But think of it on a much lesser scale, in your own life:  You have friends that shoplift...sell drugs...cheat on their spouses...and you know about it...do you say something? 

I am not trying to defend his actions, and I think that he was absolutely wrong for not doing whatever was in his power to stop this.  But I don't think he is solely to blame- after all he wasn't the one who was ass-raping kids.  And a lot of other people knew about it too and no one said anything.  And I have to wonder how all these people knew about what was going on and not ONE of them had the courage to stand up against it.  But I guess maybe they were all afraid of what would happen if it leaked out (and what ultimately DID happen when it leaked out).  They have all found themselves out of a job and shamed for life (and in death in Paterno's case)- maybe they were just trying to protect their own qualities of life...their jobs...their homes...their families.  Maybe they were all just afraid of backlash and what would happen to them if they stood up. 

Again, I'm not trying to defend anyone here.  I don't think Paterno is the monster that the media is making him out to be.  Cowardly?  Absolutely.  But not a terrible person.  They were all wrong and they all knew it and now they've got to pay whatever price there is to be paid.  And unfortunately nothing can pay for the emotional scars that these victims now have. 

[Neon]

Wow, that was a long post...sorry.

[cramx3]

Neon, I can understand your emotion (I am a PSU alum).  But I have a few points to make regarding your post:

Joe Paterno and Sandusky were not friends, I do not have evidence of this, but from what I understand Joe had been distant from him (although Sandusky had stayed close to the program, not to Paterno) since his retirement (which as the Freeh report states, had nothing to do with him potentially being a pedophile).

The only way the current players lose thier chance for the NFL is if the program is given a "death sentance" which I personally don't think will happen. I don't think any NFL team would hold this situation against them. However on a side note, I don't see much NFL talent on the current PSU roster anyway.

Joe did go to higher authority, in his last interview, he stated that he did not feel that he was confortable with this situation and presented it to his bosses who he thought would handle it. (The Freeh report does show an e-mail which states the Curley changed his opinion on going to authorities based on a convo with Joe, however, we do not know how that convo went or what was really talked about or even if it really existed)

I also agree that Paterno is not some sort of monster.  I think he was negligent.  I don't believe in a cover here.  Schultz consulted with lawyers regarding potential child abuse, Spanier told the 2nd Mile about the situation, and e-mails were exchanged talking about Sandusky (does that sound like a cover up? all of this is in the Freeh report)

[Neon]

Neon, I can understand your emotion (I am a PSU alum).  But I have a few points to make regarding your post:

Joe Paterno and Sandusky were not friends, I do not have evidence of this, but from what I understand Joe had been distant from him (although Sandusky had stayed close to the program, not to Paterno) since his retirement (which as the Freeh report states, had nothing to do with him potentially being a pedophile).

The only way the current players lose thier chance for the NFL is if the program is given a "death sentance" which I personally don't think will happen. I don't think any NFL team would hold this situation against them. However on a side note, I don't see much NFL talent on the current PSU roster anyway.

Joe did go to higher authority, in his last interview, he stated that he did not feel that he was confortable with this situation and presented it to his bosses who he thought would handle it. (The Freeh report does show an e-mail which states the Curley changed his opinion on going to authorities based on a convo with Joe, however, we do not know how that convo went or what was really talked about or even if it really existed)

I also agree that Paterno is not some sort of monster.  I think he was negligent.  I don't believe in a cover here.  Schultz consulted with lawyers regarding potential child abuse, Spanier told the 2nd Mile about the situation, and e-mails were exchanged talking about Sandusky (does that sound like a cover up? all of this is in the Freeh report)

Very good points- I didn't realize that they weren't friends.  I also didn't read too deeply into the report.   And  about the current Penn State roster.

[ZKX-2099]

They took it down.

[lonestar]

Just saw that, I think they did the right thing.

[ReaPsTA]

I think that, if you want to find a "real" lesson in all of this, it's yet another reminder of how dangerous cult-like behavior is.  The people upset over the statue coming down actually scare me.  Either they're completely deluded, or their delusions allow them to justify their own self-serving impulses.

EDIT:  I really hate that the NCAA is going to sanction the program.  This isn't about football, it's about child rape.  Why do they feel the need to inject themselves into this situation, making it about them?

[KevShmev]

  I really hate that the NCAA is going to sanction the program.  This isn't about football, it's about child rape.  Why do they feel the need to inject themselves into this situation, making it about them?

Because the university is ultimately responsible for the cover-up, given that they gave power to those who looked the other way, and as such, must be held accountable. 

[lonestar]

I feel that taking the statue down is a sign that not only are the acts of Sandusky intolerable, but that the silence surrounding the coverup is too. Children being sacrificed at the helm of powerful men who are trying to protect themselves just makes me sick. I can only hope that this is another step in the right direction to recognizing child sexual abuse, and the abused, as critical issues of life, instead of being back room secrets that have for generations taken countless innocent lives.

[Dr. DTVT]

I'm not terribly upset that they decided to take the statue down for now.  Let things tensions settle down, let the remaining facts trickle in, and make a decision at a later date.

What I'm pissed about is the NCAA.  According to leaked sources, it's going to result in the loss of several scholarships over a long period of time, with an extended bowl ban.  Why are the current and future players being denied a bowl trip?  You want a penalty with teeth?  Make them go to the bowl game AND forfeit their payout and donate it to child sex abuse awareness.  College football's dirty little secret - unless you go to a BCS bowl or the Cotton Bowl, a school will generally LOSE money by going to the bowl.  That would hurt more from a financial stand point, which is what the NCAA is seemingly trying to do.  The scandal already has and will continue to take a toll on recruiting which will hurt the on field product.  I'll wait until the actual penalties are announced before I comment further, but this seems like lynch mob mentality.

[El Barto]

  I really hate that the NCAA is going to sanction the program.  This isn't about football, it's about child rape.  Why do they feel the need to inject themselves into this situation, making it about them?

Because the university is ultimately responsible for the cover-up, given that they gave power to those who looked the other way, and as such, must be held accountable.

Yeah, I'm with Reap on this one.  The people ultimately responsible are dead, imprisoned, or awaiting trial.  I've got no problem with the university being on the hook for the damages that they'll eventually pay out, but punishing everybody remaining serves no purpose other than grandstanding, IMO. 

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The whole "because football" mentality that is super prevalent at this college and many others is what allowed this to continue.  In the interest of trying to keep their beloved football program from getting a black eye, they tried to deal with it in house.  Football must be protected at all costs, apparently.  At least that's the lesson I seem to be getting from all this.  Football and their reputations was more important than ensuring that more children didn't get raped.  Taking this school's beloved football away from them may send the signal that "You know what?  There ARE more important things than football."  When children take advantage of a privilege, you take the privilege away until the child learns to properly appreciate and respect that privilege.  Same here.  My opinions, solely.

[KevShmev]

Bingo, Cozmo.  And I don't think Penn St. will get the death penalty, but they should get hammered really hard for this.  A message has to be sent.

[El Barto]

Bingo, Cozmo.  And I don't think Penn St. will get the death penalty, but they should get hammered really hard for this.  A message has to be sent.

The word is that a program death penalty would have been preferable to the sanctions they have lined up. 

[wkiml]

early talk is 30 to 60 million in fines and sanctions lost of bowl privledges, loss of scholarships and making all student athletes eligble for transfer without having to redshirt for a year pretty much the death penalty without using the term death penalty

[PlaysLikeMyung]

So, why are the current football players being punished then? I honestly don't understand

[King Postwhore]

So, why are the current football players being punished then? I honestly don't understand

They players can transfer to another college right away if they so choose.

[Orbert]

Sure, but is another college going to give them the same scholarships that they had with PSU?

[King Postwhore]

Well under normal circumstances you'd have to sit out a year but the NCAA is waiving that policy for the Penn State players.

"Because of the length of the punishment, all current Penn State players and incoming freshman will be free to transfer to another school without penalty."

Now the scholarships, I'm not sure at all and that could be a sticking point for sum.  I'd bet that if you have a full boat you have football talent and other school will be able to work that in.  If not, it would be a shame for that opportunity that their football skills allowed them to get a chance to get a degree.

I hope the NCAA does work things out for the kids in this position.