Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?

[Dark Castle]

The school will pay in millions of dollars in civil suits, fired all involved, and has thoroughly been embarrassed so why do you punish the current team/students/alumni/fans for something that was not even an NCAA violation?

[theseoafs]

Now, this is coming from somebody who just doesn't "get" sports, and doesn't think a significant part of the budget of any university should be devoted to games:

Take it down.  Seriously.  It's a slap in the face.

[El Barto]

Reap makes a reasonable point.  If none of the people who allowed it to happen are still there, then punishing the school doesn't make much sense.  However, I'd still consider the school responsible.  I suppose where I'd make the distinction is between punitive damages and compensation.  The massive settlements that'll come down from this are and should be the school's responsibility.  If there are sanctions coming down against the school, that's just pointless. 

[Fourth Horseman]

Saying he "didn't deserve a statue in the first place" is ridiculous and off topic, sports is a very big part of many people's lives.
However, yes it should be taken down, especially in the light of this new investigation.

[cramx3]

While he is famous for being a coach, the guy donated millions to the school. He was very integral in putting Penn state on the map, that's why he has a statue. Leaving it up sends a terrible message to the public.

[ReaPsTA]

The massive settlements that'll come down from this are and should be the school's responsibility.

Yup.

[cramx3]

The massive settlements that'll come down from this are and should be the school's responsibility.

Yup.

They will be, the school is looking for al victims to come forward to settle as soon as possible.  The school doesn't want to go to court and make it more of a PR nightmare and they also want to get this over with.  One article I read said the totals can be up to the hundreds of millions, although another article said it could be much less.  I guess we'll see, either way its going to be a lot of money to pay out.

[DarkEternalNight]

It's not like they put it up for him being a good person, they did because he was a great football coach. Keep it.

[Jaq]

On second thought, leave the statue up, but just have him looking the other way.

 

[KevShmev]

It's not like they put it up for him being a good person, they did because he was a great football coach. Keep it.

Not true.  It even has the word "humanitarian" under Paterno's name, so it was not put up just because he was a great football coach.

[Cable]

It's not like they put it up for him being a good person, they did because he was a great football coach. Keep it.

Correct. How many tainted atheletes have entered their respect Halls' of Fame? JPa was a pillar for what, 40 years? Sure, those that gave him power and stature, and himself were the reason why this didn't stop and everyone was complacent. But he impact on football at the college level cannot be argued.

What is interesting is this "independent" report by Freeh, sponsered by PSU, could not find a reason why Sandusky was given retirement and no HC job. I think it is clear they knew then what he was doing, why else force him out? For his attention @ 2nd Mile and coaching is why he didnt get it? No way, they would have said HC in the future with no 2nd mile, or nothing @ all.

If this is true, it is even worse if they knew then before the 1st investigation, and gave him retirement options that did allow him to continue his henious crimes (access to PSU facilities and games).

[KevShmev]

It's not like they put it up for him being a good person, they did because he was a great football coach. Keep it.

Correct. 

No, it's not correct.  Read my last reply in the thread prior to this one.  Also, there is a quote on the wall behind the statue that is this Paterno quote:

"They ask me what I’d like written about me when I’m gone. I hope they write I made Penn State a better place, not just that I was a good football coach." 

Anyone who thinks that statue was put up just because he was a good football coach is kidding themselves.

[Tick]

It's not like they put it up for him being a good person, they did because he was a great football coach. Keep it.

Really? What message does that send to victoms and there families? Its a respect thing that says you care and your sorry. That mother fucker has to be taken down. No ifs, ands, or buts.
If I was a penn state alum or booster I sure as hell would want that statue down, asap.

[El Barto]

What is interesting is this "independent" report by Freeh, sponsered by PSU, could not find a reason why Sandusky was given retirement and no HC job. I think it is clear they knew then what he was doing, why else force him out? For his attention @ 2nd Mile and coaching is why he didnt get it? No way, they would have said HC in the future with no 2nd mile, or nothing @ all.

If this is true, it is even worse if they knew then before the 1st investigation, and gave him retirement options that did allow him to continue his henious crimes (access to PSU facilities and games).

Yeah, I have to agree.  Like I said before, if I thought he was up to no good but didn't have enough evidence to go and destroy the man's life over it, I'd have worked the forced retirement avenue.  However, that would have included keeping them the hell out of any and all PSU programs.  Second Mile is a tough problem.  Not sure what I would have done about that.

[DarkEternalNight]

I can understand both side's case now, so I'm neutral on it.

[ReaPsTA]

I can understand both side's case now, so I'm neutral on it.

There is no other side.

Paterno prevented a child rapist from going to prison, which allowed other children to be raped.  He is virtually as responsible for their being raped as Sandusky.

Nothing else he ever did matters.

There's no ambiguity.  No sufficiently redeeming quality.  Joe Paterno is a bad person.  Honoring anything he did is directly or indirectly honoring a supporter of a child rapist.

The statue should be melted and the metal sent to a recycling plant.

[Cable]

It's not like they put it up for him being a good person, they did because he was a great football coach. Keep it.

Correct. 

No, it's not correct. [snip]

Well, it is my opinion. This thread I thought is about the opinion. If you are making the argument for the integrity plaques over it or whatever, sure, I agree those should vanish. I am speaking more on his football career with the university, and a pre-existing statue staying as asked. My statements after do not show I support the man and the cover up he pulled. Yes, the man personally was probably a bastard. But I am divorcing this opinion from his impact and ability as a coach. Without Paterno, not many would probably have heard of the university.

If it stands, I am sure it will be constantly vandalized, so it will probably be taken down anyway.

[lonestar]

I can understand both side's case now, so I'm neutral on it.

There is no other side.

Paterno prevented a child rapist from going to prison, which allowed other children to be raped.  He is virtually as responsible for their being raped as Sandusky.

Nothing else he ever did matters.

There's no ambiguity.  No sufficiently redeeming quality.  Joe Paterno is a bad person.  Honoring anything he did is directly or indirectly honoring a supporter of a child rapist.

The statue should be melted and the metal sent to a recycling plant.

Thank you.

[cramx3]

That's BS to say nothing else he did matters. Sure right now it doesn't, but the positive impacts he has made do matter. He made a huge mistake to which we still don't know all the details.  His legacy will be paid dearly with this mistake. That doesn't mean he didn't do many positive things.

[Cool Chris]

Interesting question, one I hadn't thought of, since it it more a PSU issue that I can't be bothered with.

The question I've been reading about and that I find fascinating and can't answer yet, is if the NCAA should hit them with the 'death penalty' (or something along those lines).

If not, what kind of a message does that send to schools who got hit hard with punishment for a couple boosters giving some recruits some cash?

If so, what's the point now? The 4 men involved are gone (one dead, one rotting in prison, 2 facing criminal charges, plus the president for that matter who is gone).

I can't decide where I fall on this. The parties that need to be punished are, or will be, taken care of. Should the school be allowed to heal and move on in the hands of better men? Or should it shut down completely and basically be told to make a brand new fresh start after a year with no football?

[Dr. DTVT]

I'd like to compare and contrast the situations at SMU and PSU.

Crime wise, child rape and cover-up are much worse than paying players and recruits.  No arguement there.

The PSU case revolves around 4 primary people (Paterno, Spanier, Curley, & Schultz) covering-up a crime.  The SMU case involved hundreds of people in systemmatic corruption.

PSU cleaned house when allegations came to light, SMU didn't clean house and continued doing the very same things that got them in trouble in the first place.

SMU got the death penalty for repeated violations and not cleaning house.  Penn State has cleaned house and appears to be trying to do right.  There is no reason to penalize the current staff and players for things that happened well before their time there, all the other sports that depend on the football teams revenue to their title IX money hemorraging sports, as well as the current student body, by giving the program the death penalty.  When all is said and done, the money paid out by the athletic department in lawsuits is going to reduce their budget, and you better believe that college football is an arms race where more $$$ = more W's. 

[El Barto]

I guess there's something I don't understand here.  As I understand it, the problem is that Paterno knew that JS was being investigated by John Law a long time ago, and did nothing to protect kiddos after he found that out.  If that's it, then what people are blaming him for is not acting after the cops had already investigated him and presumably couldn't find enough evidence to do anything.  Am I missing something here?

[Dr. DTVT]

No, they are after him for not going to the cops after the 2002 incident reported to him by McQuery.  First time you could brush it off as just allegations.  That was the smoking gun, and he didn't act on that.

That said, while he obviously doesn't have the profile of a national icon like JoePa, why isn't anyone upset that the janitor didn't act on what he saw in 2000?  It could have ended there as well.  I'm not making excuses for JP, just saying that others aren't being held accountable for not acting.  Having not witnessed anything, I don't think it was JP's job to go to the cops, much like (I believe it was El Barto) made the point that he wouldn't go to the cops if someone told him something similar was going down in his neighborhood, but he'd encourage the person who told him to go to the police.  If someone told me they thought my boss was embezzling money, it's not my job to take second hand info to the cops, but I should encourage the person with the information to come forward.

[Fourth Horseman]

I think the NCAA will give them the death penalty(probably just football). This means the team will practically be shit for 10 years, at least.  Also if I were Penn State I would just completely clean house in the entire athletic department, giving even the people who aren't at fault 2 years of salary with no work etc etc.

[Dr. DTVT]

^
I'll bet dollars to dimes they won't get the death penalty.  And the second part of your statement tells me you have absolutely no grasp on reality.  You can't just punish innocent people for the misdeeds of others.

[millahh]

As I understand it, JP knew about the 1998 report (whuch I suspect led the JS "retiring" in '99).  So when McQueary came to him in 2001, it was confirmation of what happened in 1998, but JP and everyone else pretended it was out oif the blue.  Not good.

It's now clear that JP lied under oath, and if he were alive, would be facing multiple indictments.  Further, he renegotiated his conract around the time of his grand jury testimony, giving himself a huge payout if he retired at the end of 2011.  Then he went out and acted all noble, as though he were falling on his sword by offering to retire at the end of the season.

The JoePa that everyone thought they knew was a fiction in some critical ways.  I think that statue, which is there as a result of some of that fiction, should therefore come down.

My PSU shirt is in the pile to go to Goodwill. 

[black_biff_stadler]

Enlightening post indeed, Miller

[Priest of Syrinx]

Now, this is coming from somebody who just doesn't "get" sports, and doesn't think a significant part of the budget of any university should be devoted to games:

Take it down.  Seriously.  It's a slap in the face.

Actually, football makes PSU tons of $$.  Football & basketball make money for quite a few universities.

[Priest of Syrinx]

It's a yes/no question, but it's far from simple.  To me, this is similar to the question of whether or not Pete Rose should still be in the MLB Hall of Fame.  If something is meant to honor someone's accomplishments, those accomplishments are not affected by later events or revelations.  But if it's meant to honor the person, and that person has been disgraced, then that's a different matter.

Pete Rose signed an agreement with MLB that he would be ineligible to be in the HoF.  MLB, in turn, agreed not to release the Dowd Report.  So, there's a huge difference.

[Orbert]

Why would he sign that?  Because he was aware of some wrongdoing?  Fine.

The situation is still similar.  Are you honoring the man or honoring his accomplishments?  Are his accomplishments somehow negated by later revelations of his character?

[Cool Chris]

That said, while he obviously doesn't have the profile of a national icon like JoePa, why isn't anyone upset that the janitor didn't act on what he saw in 2000?  It could have ended there as well.  I'm not making excuses for JP, just saying that others aren't being held accountable for not acting. 

The rest of your point is valid, but I think the argument being made here is that a guy making minimum wage was probably too afraid to speak out, for fear that no one would be believe them over someone like Paterno. And once that dust settled, they would be looking for new shower stalls to clean. That doesn't make it right, but is just being used as an example of how insular the PSU community was, and how Paterno held dominion over all.

From the Freeh report:

Janitor B explained to the Special Investigative Counsel that reporting the incident “would have been like going against the President of the United States in my eyes.” “I know Paterno has so much power, if he wanted to get rid of someone, I would have been gone.” He explained “football runs this University,” and said the University would have closed ranked to protect the football program at all costs.

[cramx3]

As I understand it, JP knew about the 1998 report (whuch I suspect led the JS "retiring" in '99).  So when McQueary came to him in 2001, it was confirmation of what happened in 1998, but JP and everyone else pretended it was out oif the blue.  Not good.

I wish people would stop saying this. The Freeh report specifically says there is no evidence the J'S was fired or asked to leave because of the 98 report. In fact, the Freeh report has a note from Paterno saying before the 98 report that J'S should retire to work on 2nd mile because he was spending too much time with it.

[rumborak]

From the Freeh report:

Janitor B explained to the Special Investigative Counsel that reporting the incident “would have been like going against the President of the United States in my eyes.” “I know Paterno has so much power, if he wanted to get rid of someone, I would have been gone.” He explained “football runs this University,” and said the University would have closed ranked to protect the football program at all costs.

I can't even fathom how sad a state this is for a university to be in. "Football runs this university" is a sad perversion of what universities are about.

rumborak

[Orbert]

A school's sports program brings it national attention.  It also brings in huge amounts of money.  I think the priorities can get screwed up, and yeah, to say that football runs the school is sad.  But there's no question that a huge a lot of decisions are made based on whether or not, or how, the sports program will be affected.  And that's a reality that they have to take into account.

[cramx3]

It is sad that sports are so big at university's that it can effect decision making.  PSU isn't the only school like that. The NCAA as a whole is fairly absurd when you think about the money it makes from student athletes. On the other hand, there are many athletes who get a free education and don't make money for the school/NCA