Poll

Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?

Yes
70 (75.3%)
No
23 (24.7%)

Total Members Voted: 91

Voting closed: October 05, 2013, 09:17:12 AM

Author Topic: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?  (Read 22147 times)

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Offline snapple

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2012, 11:19:20 AM »
It makes literally no sense to punish the football players. If someone did something illegal, they go to jail. If they didn't, then why punish them?

I understand people think the whole 'Penn State Cult' or whatever had something to do with it, but as evidenced by this thread, fan reactions in general, and common sense, trying to kill that cult by punishing the football program only makes it worse.

It's punishing Paterno and Penn State. He is no longer the wins leader as a head coach in the NCAA. And it is sending a message to all other universities. Try to keep up

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #176 on: July 31, 2012, 11:19:43 AM »
The uproar is because this situation is out of the NCAA jurisdiction.  In the history of the NCAA, they have never handed out sanctions related to criminal activity.  They enforce NCAA bylaws, not federal laws. 

"it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct."

"In determining the penalties for Penn State, the Executive Committee, Board and NCAA leadership considered numerous bylaws and portions of the constitution"

Actual Bylaws that were violated:

https://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207235

Those bylaws all relate to athletics, not to reporting criminal activities.  The NCAA most certainly stretched the rules, in fact,  they even bypassed all thier own rules as they did not do an internal investigation themselves. 

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #177 on: July 31, 2012, 11:20:51 AM »
I also feels it sends a message that some things are above football, and are intolerable at any rate, one I fully support.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #178 on: July 31, 2012, 11:21:40 AM »
The uproar is because this situation is out of the NCAA jurisdiction.  In the history of the NCAA, they have never handed out sanctions related to criminal activity.  They enforce NCAA bylaws, not federal laws. 

"it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct."

"In determining the penalties for Penn State, the Executive Committee, Board and NCAA leadership considered numerous bylaws and portions of the constitution"

Actual Bylaws that were violated:

https://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207235

Those bylaws all relate to athletics, not to reporting criminal activities.  The NCAA most certainly stretched the rules, in fact,  they even bypassed all thier own rules as they did not do an internal investigation themselves.

Seriously, did you even read them?  They specifically speak about ethics, supervision/control, outside agencies, and illegal activities.  C'mon Man.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/20120723/21207236PDF.pdf

There really should be no discussion AT ALL about if NCAA Bylaws/Constitution were violated.  This is beyond dispute, and Penn State FULLY AGREES.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:27:18 AM by eric42434224 »
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Offline snapple

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #179 on: July 31, 2012, 11:22:15 AM »
I also feels it sends a message that some things are above football, and are intolerable at any rate, one I fully support.

 :tup

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #180 on: July 31, 2012, 11:25:57 AM »
But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

Same way my company would be legally on the hook if I did something illegal while working here (I work for a financial company, if I were to found guilty of insider trading or sharing information thats not yet made public, the entire firm is held responsible. No difference if its a firm or a university) They didn't show they had internal controls in place to A-stop it B-Once it was found to report it to the necesary governing authorities

its called internal controls

That is not true.  If you are caught doing insider trading, YOU have to go to jail or pay the fine or what not, most certainly your company would look bad and may get handed a fine, but YOU would pay the price ultimately as that is against the law. I also work for a financial company and I have to sign a quarterly attestation agreeing that I have read the insider trading policies and I comply. Meaning, it's on me if I screw up.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #181 on: July 31, 2012, 11:27:27 AM »
The uproar is because this situation is out of the NCAA jurisdiction.  In the history of the NCAA, they have never handed out sanctions related to criminal activity.  They enforce NCAA bylaws, not federal laws. 

"it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct."

"In determining the penalties for Penn State, the Executive Committee, Board and NCAA leadership considered numerous bylaws and portions of the constitution"

Actual Bylaws that were violated:

https://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207235

Those bylaws all relate to athletics, not to reporting criminal activities.  The NCAA most certainly stretched the rules, in fact,  they even bypassed all thier own rules as they did not do an internal investigation themselves.

Seriously, did you even read them?  They specifically speak about ethics, supervision/control, outside agencies, and illegal activities.  C'mon Man.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/20120723/21207236PDF.pdf

They specifically speak about ethics, supervision/control, outside agencies, and illegal activities, in relation to NCAA bylaws.  Not on criminal conduct.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #182 on: July 31, 2012, 11:28:50 AM »
The uproar is because this situation is out of the NCAA jurisdiction.  In the history of the NCAA, they have never handed out sanctions related to criminal activity.  They enforce NCAA bylaws, not federal laws. 

"it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct."

"In determining the penalties for Penn State, the Executive Committee, Board and NCAA leadership considered numerous bylaws and portions of the constitution"

Actual Bylaws that were violated:

https://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207235

Those bylaws all relate to athletics, not to reporting criminal activities.  The NCAA most certainly stretched the rules, in fact,  they even bypassed all thier own rules as they did not do an internal investigation themselves.

Seriously, did you even read them?  They specifically speak about ethics, supervision/control, outside agencies, and illegal activities.  C'mon Man.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/20120723/21207236PDF.pdf

They specifically speak about ethics, supervision/control, outside agencies, and illegal activities, in relation to NCAA bylaws.  Not on criminal conduct.

And the NCAA levied punishment because of violation of NCAA rules.  What is it that you dont get?
They arent punishing them criminally...that is separate.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #183 on: July 31, 2012, 11:32:02 AM »
But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

Same way my company would be legally on the hook if I did something illegal while working here (I work for a financial company, if I were to found guilty of insider trading or sharing information thats not yet made public, the entire firm is held responsible. No difference if its a firm or a university) They didn't show they had internal controls in place to A-stop it B-Once it was found to report it to the necesary governing authorities

its called internal controls

That is not true.  If you are caught doing insider trading, YOU have to go to jail or pay the fine or what not, most certainly your company would look bad and may get handed a fine, but YOU would pay the price ultimately as that is against the law. I also work for a financial company and I have to sign a quarterly attestation agreeing that I have read the insider trading policies and I comply. Meaning, it's on me if I screw up.

You Sir, need to learn about a subject before posting.  I am also in the financial industry, and there are two governing "bodies" so to speak.
One is the LAW, and you certainly can be subject to criminal penalties.  There are also "self-governing bodies" like the NCAA, and in the financial industry the SEC and FINRA.  They can impose sanctions like financial and expulsion.  They dont do criminal.  Your company ABSOLUTELY 100% can be held responsible for supervision by FINRA and SEC.  Your little attestation means squat if they arent doing things like observation, tracking monitoring.  A doc like your attestation does not take them off the hook...that is just silly.  Your OSJ IS responsible for your conduct, PERIOD.
Do you understand now?  The NCAA can impose penalties as a self regulatory org, and the authorities can do criminal.  They are separate.

In the example of an Inside Trader, FINRA and the SEC can levy financial penalties, as well as sanctions against the offender like suspension/expulsion from the industry.  They can also be prosecuted for breaking the law.

Penn State violated NCAA rules, and the NCAA can levy its punishment.  If laws were broken, the authorities can also prosecute.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 11:39:34 AM by eric42434224 »
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #184 on: July 31, 2012, 11:36:14 AM »
The NCAA rules for ethics, supervision/control, outside agencies, and illegal activities that you quoted are all in relation to following the NCAA rules. Example, it is against NCAA rules to have an agent.  If the school allows a school to have an agent, then they broke the supervision rule because they didnt report an NCAA violation.  If a person witnesses a crime and dont report it, it is against the law, not against an NCAA bylaw. 

And yes, PSU accepted the sanctions, but they did not have much of a choice.  If they went to court, I beleive they would win against the NCAA, but going to court would drag this out and PSU clearly wants to move forward, hence just accept the sanctions.  Im honestly not even sure you can go to court on something like this, but if you dont accept, you are out of the NCAA so what choice is there really?

Offline wkiml

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #185 on: July 31, 2012, 11:37:37 AM »
But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

Same way my company would be legally on the hook if I did something illegal while working here (I work for a financial company, if I were to found guilty of insider trading or sharing information thats not yet made public, the entire firm is held responsible. No difference if its a firm or a university) They didn't show they had internal controls in place to A-stop it B-Once it was found to report it to the necesary governing authorities

its called internal controls

That is not true.  If you are caught doing insider trading, YOU have to go to jail or pay the fine or what not, most certainly your company would look bad and may get handed a fine, but YOU would pay the price ultimately as that is against the law. I also work for a financial company and I have to sign a quarterly attestation agreeing that I have read the insider trading policies and I comply. Meaning, it's on me if I screw up.

and my company is liable to fines and lawsuits which could possible but them out of business , so by me risking something to that effect I could have a direct result on the receptionist answering the phones thus everyone is effected by my actions. No different here
Quote from: senecadawg2 on July 17, 2012, 10:54:32 PM
In defense of peanut butter...

try getting the neighbor's dog to lick your balls with a spoonful of chummus.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #186 on: July 31, 2012, 11:39:40 AM »
But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

Same way my company would be legally on the hook if I did something illegal while working here (I work for a financial company, if I were to found guilty of insider trading or sharing information thats not yet made public, the entire firm is held responsible. No difference if its a firm or a university) They didn't show they had internal controls in place to A-stop it B-Once it was found to report it to the necesary governing authorities

its called internal controls

That is not true.  If you are caught doing insider trading, YOU have to go to jail or pay the fine or what not, most certainly your company would look bad and may get handed a fine, but YOU would pay the price ultimately as that is against the law. I also work for a financial company and I have to sign a quarterly attestation agreeing that I have read the insider trading policies and I comply. Meaning, it's on me if I screw up.

You Sir, need to learn about a subject before posting.  I am also in the financial industry, and there are two governing "bodies" so to speak.
One is the LAW, and you certainly can be subject to criminal penalties.  There are also "self-governing bodies" like the NCAA, and in the financial industry the SEC and FINRA.  They can impose sanctions like financial and expulsion.  They dont do criminal.
Do you understand now?  The NCAA can impose penalties as a self regulatory org, and the authorities can do criminal.  They are separate.

In the example of an Inside Trader, FINRA and the SEC can levy financial penalties, as well as sanctions against the offender like suspension/expulsion from the industry.  They can also be prosecuted for breaking the law.

Penn State violated NCAA rules, and the NCAA can levy its punishment.  If laws were broken, the authorities can also prosecute.

OK, so you helped me. The LAW enforces criminal penalties and SEC/Finra enforce the finincial industry rules. Two seperate entities.  The LAW enforces child pedofphiles and people who do not report them, the NCAA enforces athletic laws.  Two seperate entities. 

Offline wkiml

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #187 on: July 31, 2012, 11:42:52 AM »
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen

I'll post this once again
Quote from: senecadawg2 on July 17, 2012, 10:54:32 PM
In defense of peanut butter...

try getting the neighbor's dog to lick your balls with a spoonful of chummus.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #188 on: July 31, 2012, 11:43:41 AM »
But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

Same way my company would be legally on the hook if I did something illegal while working here (I work for a financial company, if I were to found guilty of insider trading or sharing information thats not yet made public, the entire firm is held responsible. No difference if its a firm or a university) They didn't show they had internal controls in place to A-stop it B-Once it was found to report it to the necesary governing authorities

its called internal controls

That is not true.  If you are caught doing insider trading, YOU have to go to jail or pay the fine or what not, most certainly your company would look bad and may get handed a fine, but YOU would pay the price ultimately as that is against the law. I also work for a financial company and I have to sign a quarterly attestation agreeing that I have read the insider trading policies and I comply. Meaning, it's on me if I screw up.

You Sir, need to learn about a subject before posting.  I am also in the financial industry, and there are two governing "bodies" so to speak.
One is the LAW, and you certainly can be subject to criminal penalties.  There are also "self-governing bodies" like the NCAA, and in the financial industry the SEC and FINRA.  They can impose sanctions like financial and expulsion.  They dont do criminal.
Do you understand now?  The NCAA can impose penalties as a self regulatory org, and the authorities can do criminal.  They are separate.

In the example of an Inside Trader, FINRA and the SEC can levy financial penalties, as well as sanctions against the offender like suspension/expulsion from the industry.  They can also be prosecuted for breaking the law.

Penn State violated NCAA rules, and the NCAA can levy its punishment.  If laws were broken, the authorities can also prosecute.

OK, so you helped me. The LAW enforces criminal penalties and SEC/Finra enforce the finincial industry rules. Two seperate entities.  The LAW enforces child pedofphiles and people who do not report them, the NCAA enforces athletic laws.  Two seperate entities.

Exactly.  NCAA was not punishing criminal Law.  They were punishing violations of NCAA rules regarding ethics, supervision, etc.
It is extremely clear.

Also, I edited my post above and dont think you saw it.  The attestation you sign regarding Insider Trading does not absolve a firm of responsibility.  They have to have an OSJ and company processes that monitor, train, etc.  That attestation is most likely to be used as grounds for termination by the company if violated, as it shows awareness of the rules by the rep.  Nothing to do with the responsibilities required of the company/firm by FINRA.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #189 on: July 31, 2012, 11:45:10 AM »
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen

I'll post this once again

  Exactly.  Seriously, there is absolutely ZERO room for doubt that Penn State violated NCAA rules.  I am baffled that anyone would dispute this.
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #190 on: July 31, 2012, 11:51:56 AM »
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen

I'll post this once again

  Exactly.  Seriously, there is absolutely ZERO room for doubt that Penn State violated NCAA rules.  I am baffled that anyone would dispute this.

But that is all in the context of being a coach.  Did Arkansas get an NCAA sanction when thier coach cheated on his wife and got into a motorcycle accident with his lady student friend, oh who was hired by the coach. That certainly isnt exemplary conduct.

The problem with the NCAA is that they have NEVER sanctioned a school who criminal conduct. NEVER.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #191 on: July 31, 2012, 11:53:14 AM »
They aren't sanctioning for criminal conduct, they are sanctioning for ethical and supervision violations.  Why cant you understand?
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #192 on: July 31, 2012, 11:57:17 AM »
They aren't sanctioning for criminal conduct, they are sanctioning for ethical and supervision violations.  Why cant you understand?

So they are sanction for ethical and supervison violations that are based on the criminal conduct of PSU?  My point earlier is that ethical and supervision violations are based on breaking NCAA rules such as recruiting and unfair competitive advantages.  That is unethical based on the NCAA rules.  What PSU did is unethical based on federal laws.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #193 on: July 31, 2012, 12:01:03 PM »
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen

I'll post this once again

  Exactly.  Seriously, there is absolutely ZERO room for doubt that Penn State violated NCAA rules.  I am baffled that anyone would dispute this.

But that is all in the context of being a coach.  Did Arkansas get an NCAA sanction when thier coach cheated on his wife and got into a motorcycle accident with his lady student friend, oh who was hired by the coach. That certainly isnt exemplary conduct.

The problem with the NCAA is that they have NEVER sanctioned a school who criminal conduct. NEVER.

Did Arkansas' AD know about the affair, did the President of athletics know about the affair, did the president of the university know about the affair?

The fact is Penn State authorities knew of the conduct of Sandusky and choose to turn a "blind eye" to the situation


Quote from: senecadawg2 on July 17, 2012, 10:54:32 PM
In defense of peanut butter...

try getting the neighbor's dog to lick your balls with a spoonful of chummus.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #194 on: July 31, 2012, 12:03:17 PM »
They aren't sanctioning for criminal conduct, they are sanctioning for ethical and supervision violations.  Why cant you understand?

So they are sanction for ethical and supervison violations that are based on the criminal conduct of PSU?  My point earlier is that ethical and supervision violations are based on breaking NCAA rules such as recruiting and unfair competitive advantages.  That is unethical based on the NCAA rules.  What PSU did is unethical based on federal laws.

The criminal act, the covering up of the criminal act, and the allowing of the criminal act to continue IS a violation of the ethical and supervisory rules of the NCAA.
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #195 on: July 31, 2012, 12:05:24 PM »
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen

I'll post this once again

  Exactly.  Seriously, there is absolutely ZERO room for doubt that Penn State violated NCAA rules.  I am baffled that anyone would dispute this.

But that is all in the context of being a coach.  Did Arkansas get an NCAA sanction when thier coach cheated on his wife and got into a motorcycle accident with his lady student friend, oh who was hired by the coach. That certainly isnt exemplary conduct.

The problem with the NCAA is that they have NEVER sanctioned a school who criminal conduct. NEVER.

Did Arkansas' AD know about the affair, did the President of athletics know about the affair, did the president of the university know about the affair?

The fact is Penn State authorities knew of the conduct of Sandusky and choose to turn a "blind eye" to the situation

Yes, Yes, and Yes. In fact, the coach even lied to the cops about the lady because he didnt want his wife to find out.  Here is the story if interested.  Note Petrino was fired for his conduct (which obviously is unethical, but no NCAA involvement)
https://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7834133/former-arkansas-coach-bobby-petrino-detailed-affair-jessica-dorrell-boss-firing

The point I am making is that the NCAA has never sanctioned a school for unethical conduct that does not relate to the NCAA bylaws.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #196 on: July 31, 2012, 12:06:45 PM »
It is baffling that you dont see how Penn State did not violate NCAA rules.
It 100% DOES violate NCAA bylaws.

I am quite sure you did not read this:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/ncaa/files/20120723/21207236PDF.pdf

Are you not aware that the abuse took place in programs that were 1) in University facilities, 2) committed by a University coach, 3) under the auspices of university programs for youth, and 4) the university staff failed to report, and covered up, the misconduct.

You are under the misguided impression that the NCAA rules on ethics and supervision are focused narrowly on things like recruiting.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 12:12:47 PM by eric42434224 »
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #197 on: July 31, 2012, 12:11:24 PM »
Reread that article about Arkansas they found out all of that information after the accident during their own investigation in which they fired him

They didn't hide the information they took the correct steps in "Control" thus they didn't violate NCAA by-laws as a University
Quote from: senecadawg2 on July 17, 2012, 10:54:32 PM
In defense of peanut butter...

try getting the neighbor's dog to lick your balls with a spoonful of chummus.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #198 on: July 31, 2012, 12:25:26 PM »
Reread that article about Arkansas they found out all of that information after the accident during their own investigation in which they fired him

They didn't hide the information they took the correct steps in "Control" thus they didn't violate NCAA by-laws as a University

The school didnt hide the information, clearly the coach tried to.  And are you going to tell me what the coach did wasnt unethical? Clearly the school should be sanctioned based on your reasoning.

Quote
Are you not aware that the abuse took place in programs that were 1) in University facilities, 2) committed by a University coach, 3) under the auspices of university programs for youth, and 4) the university staff failed to report, and covered up, the misconduct.

1 is true.
2 is not true, he was no longer a coach. In 98 he was a coach, but police investigated and found nothing sexual occured (victim 4 confirmed this on the stand during the Sanduskys trial).
3. This was under the Second Mile, which yes, did have a relationship with PSU, but there is no doubt that the Second Mile supplied the kids and the youth program.
4. The staff definitely failled to report, however, there is no evidence of a cover up. 

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #199 on: July 31, 2012, 12:29:46 PM »
#4 baffles me.  Of course there was a cover up.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #200 on: July 31, 2012, 12:33:49 PM »

1 is true.
2 is not true, he was no longer a coach. In 98 he was a coach, but police investigated and found nothing sexual occured (victim 4 confirmed this on the stand during the Sanduskys trial).
3. This was under the Second Mile, which yes, did have a relationship with PSU, but there is no doubt that the Second Mile supplied the kids and the youth program.
4. The staff definitely failled to report, however, there is no evidence of a cover up.

1.  Good, we agree.
2.  10.1 Unethical Conduct.
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member
3.  Moot point who supplied anything.  The program was connected to Penn State Athletics.
4.  How is failing to report not a cover up?

They 100% violated NCAA rules.  This is 100% not in dispute.
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #201 on: July 31, 2012, 12:37:02 PM »
Reread that article about Arkansas they found out all of that information after the accident during their own investigation in which they fired him

They didn't hide the information they took the correct steps in "Control" thus they didn't violate NCAA by-laws as a University

The school didnt hide the information, clearly the coach tried to.  And are you going to tell me what the coach did wasnt unethical? Clearly the school should be sanctioned based on your reasoning.

Quote
Are you not aware that the abuse took place in programs that were 1) in University facilities, 2) committed by a University coach, 3) under the auspices of university programs for youth, and 4) the university staff failed to report, and covered up, the misconduct.

1 is true.
2 is not true, he was no longer a coach. In 98 he was a coach, but police investigated and found nothing sexual occured (victim 4 confirmed this on the stand during the Sanduskys trial).
3. This was under the Second Mile, which yes, did have a relationship with PSU, but there is no doubt that the Second Mile supplied the kids and the youth program.
4. The staff definitely failled to report, however, there is no evidence of a cover up.

either you are chosing not to read my replies in full or are so hell bent on "PENN STATE FOOTBALL" that your blind to see the obvious.

Arkansas coach was unethical. Arkansas university does an internal investigation and finds the coash was unethical and fires him....no breech of NCAA by-laws

Penn State coach Sandusky was unethical. Penn State does internal investigation at the time determines if this news gets out its damaging to the university, decides to not report it to outside authorities or the NCAA for that fact (its in the Freeh report findings)  so yes they were in breech of the NCAA by-laws
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #202 on: July 31, 2012, 12:40:11 PM »
Reread that article about Arkansas they found out all of that information after the accident during their own investigation in which they fired him

They didn't hide the information they took the correct steps in "Control" thus they didn't violate NCAA by-laws as a University

The school didnt hide the information, clearly the coach tried to.  And are you going to tell me what the coach did wasnt unethical? Clearly the school should be sanctioned based on your reasoning.

Quote
Are you not aware that the abuse took place in programs that were 1) in University facilities, 2) committed by a University coach, 3) under the auspices of university programs for youth, and 4) the university staff failed to report, and covered up, the misconduct.

1 is true.
2 is not true, he was no longer a coach. In 98 he was a coach, but police investigated and found nothing sexual occured (victim 4 confirmed this on the stand during the Sanduskys trial).
3. This was under the Second Mile, which yes, did have a relationship with PSU, but there is no doubt that the Second Mile supplied the kids and the youth program.
4. The staff definitely failled to report, however, there is no evidence of a cover up.

either you are chosing not to read my replies in full or are so hell bent on "PENN STATE FOOTBALL" that your blind to see the obvious.

Arkansas coach was unethical. Arkansas university does an internal investigation and finds the coash was unethical and fires him....no breech of NCAA by-laws

Penn State coach Sandusky was unethical. Penn State does internal investigation at the time determines if this news gets out its damaging to the university, decides to not report it to outside authorities or the NCAA for that fact (its in the Freeh report findings)  so yes they were in breech of the NCAA by-laws

I don't think he understands the difference.  The university complied with NCAA rules, the coach did not.  The NCAA can assess penalties to the coach, but he was already fired.
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #203 on: July 31, 2012, 12:46:33 PM »
4.  How is failing to report not a cover up?

It is very easy to believe in a cover up, hell Freeh even said it himself, but when you dig deeper, its a bit easier to see how this was a terrible mishandling and not a cover up.  It is also easy to say Sandusky is a pedophile now, but 10 years ago was much different.  When you work with someone who coaches kids for a living, when that person goes through background and security checks to adopt 6 children of his own, and then when that person opens an institution to benefit children, it is hard to think that person is a pedophile.  In the Freeh report, it talks about all this. It also talks about how Sandusky normally showered with boys and with other coaches and how this was never a problem back then. (I personally think its wierd, and I know most people think its wierd, but apparantly it was accepted and its also not illegal).  Then in 98 a child is bear hugged in the shower and tells his mom who contacts police.  The police investigate as well as the department of welfare and find that Sandusky showed no signs of being a pedophile and nothing sexual occurs.  This is confirmed by Victim 4 in trial and is in the Freeh report.  In 2001, Sandusky is caught in an act by McQueary.  He tells Paterno he thinks he saw something sexual, but didnt describe in detail what he saw (see Grand Jury testimony). Joe tells his superiors and sets up a meeting with his superiors (Curley the AD and Schultz the head of campus police).  This is where the idea of a cover up comes from.  What was said in that meeting. Curley and Schultz say nothing sexual was talked about, McQuery says it was. (Hence a perjury trial for those two coming up soon).  The higher ups consider what to do. Schultz consults with lawyers about it (in Freeh report), they all agree that they will notify second mile and then talk to Sandusky about "boundary issues".  That is where they were wrong, but given what I said before about the history of Sandusky, its a lot easier to see how these people can be negligent to the fact that he is a pedophile.  These guys talked about it in e-mail, in meetings, to lawyers, and to the second mile.  That doesn't sound like a cover up to me.  Granted, my opinion can change if evidence comes out, but for now, I believe these guys made a terrible mistake, but I dont believe they intentionally buried his crimes.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #204 on: July 31, 2012, 12:52:57 PM »
Reread that article about Arkansas they found out all of that information after the accident during their own investigation in which they fired him

They didn't hide the information they took the correct steps in "Control" thus they didn't violate NCAA by-laws as a University

The school didnt hide the information, clearly the coach tried to.  And are you going to tell me what the coach did wasnt unethical? Clearly the school should be sanctioned based on your reasoning.

Quote
Are you not aware that the abuse took place in programs that were 1) in University facilities, 2) committed by a University coach, 3) under the auspices of university programs for youth, and 4) the university staff failed to report, and covered up, the misconduct.

1 is true.
2 is not true, he was no longer a coach. In 98 he was a coach, but police investigated and found nothing sexual occured (victim 4 confirmed this on the stand during the Sanduskys trial).
3. This was under the Second Mile, which yes, did have a relationship with PSU, but there is no doubt that the Second Mile supplied the kids and the youth program.
4. The staff definitely failled to report, however, there is no evidence of a cover up.

either you are chosing not to read my replies in full or are so hell bent on "PENN STATE FOOTBALL" that your blind to see the obvious.

Arkansas coach was unethical. Arkansas university does an internal investigation and finds the coash was unethical and fires him....no breech of NCAA by-laws

Penn State coach Sandusky was unethical. Penn State does internal investigation at the time determines if this news gets out its damaging to the university, decides to not report it to outside authorities or the NCAA for that fact (its in the Freeh report findings)  so yes they were in breech of the NCAA by-laws

How am I hell bent on penn state football? I told you where I believe they are wrong, Ive stated in the beginning of this thread that the statue should come down. I also stated they should get fined.  I am just drawing the line on where things are fair vs. unfair.  You seem to not know the situation in detail and make your claims.  I've at least done my research on this topic. I may be wrong on my opinions, but my opinions are based on the evidence we have been shown, not assumptions on what a total of three e-mails mean that are in the Free report.  By the way, Freeh is not the law. His report did not include interviews with 4/5 of the main people involved (Paterno, Curley, SChultz, and McQueary).  It will be very interesting when the trials of Curley and Schultz end because I hope to learn the truth about what happened.  Isnt it also funny if there was evidence of a cover up, why havent Spanier and Paterno been arrested? (Well obviously Paterno is dead, but before his death the attorney general said Paterno didn't break any laws)

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #205 on: July 31, 2012, 12:54:07 PM »
If you dont want to call it a cover up, thats fine.  It doesnt change that there were ethical and supervisory violations of NCAA rules.
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #206 on: July 31, 2012, 12:56:51 PM »
If you dont want to call it a cover up, thats fine.  It doesnt change that there were ethical and supervisory violations of NCAA rules.

I dont disagree that what happened was unethical, it certainly was, I just dont see how it pertains to an NCAA rule.  The consent decree as you shown was a way for the university to agree to sanctions that did not follow NCAA procedure.  This allowed the NCAA and university to save face.  It doesnt mean that it was right.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #207 on: July 31, 2012, 01:01:48 PM »
If you dont want to call it a cover up, thats fine.  It doesnt change that there were ethical and supervisory violations of NCAA rules.

I dont disagree that what happened was unethical, it certainly was, I just dont see how it pertains to an NCAA rule.  The consent decree as you shown was a way for the university to agree to sanctions that did not follow NCAA procedure.  This allowed the NCAA and university to save face.  It doesnt mean that it was right.

OK, if you cant see that the unethical behavior is a violation of NCAA rules, then there is no point in discussing it further.
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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #208 on: July 31, 2012, 01:04:25 PM »
If you dont want to call it a cover up, thats fine.  It doesnt change that there were ethical and supervisory violations of NCAA rules.

I dont disagree that what happened was unethical, it certainly was, I just dont see how it pertains to an NCAA rule.  The consent decree as you shown was a way for the university to agree to sanctions that did not follow NCAA procedure.  This allowed the NCAA and university to save face.  It doesnt mean that it was right.

OK, if you cant see that the unethical behavior is a violation of NCAA rules, then there is no point in discussing it further.

Thats fine with me.  I dont recall any school getting an NCAA sanction when an athlete, coach, or former coach broke a criminal law (which is clearly unethical).  We arent going to agree on this so might as well move on.

https://www.awfulannouncing.com/2012-articles/july/brent-musburger-s-comments-show-complexity-of-penn-state-situation.html

Musburger had some good thoughts when he was on Pardon the Interuption last week.

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Re: Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?
« Reply #209 on: July 31, 2012, 01:07:19 PM »
I'm curious, do you know of any instance of confirmed unethical behavior of an institution or program, that was also criminal, where the NCAA did not impose any penalty at all?

My point is that unethical behavior is unethical behavior, regardless of whether it is criminal or not.  In fact, if it is criminal behavior, that makes the unethical behavoir that much more serious, and more deserving of punishment for the unethical violation of NCAA rules.
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