Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Right, that's well and good, but they're punishing the wrong people. It was the higher ups that fucked up, not the players.

But the higher ups fucked up while trying to protect the aura and mystique surrounding the football team, and that was created/perpetuated by everyone else. The higher ups came to the conclusion that football was more important than protecting children because of the reverence everyone had for the football program. This is how the football program is made to be not that fucking important.

So the solution was to highlight the unimportance of the football program by making the most important punishment the football sanctions?

I don't get it.

I'm not defending anyone involved, but it doesn't make sense to me.

[King Postwhore]

Oh, no doubt that the one's involved will get jail time.  They will get their due.

[wkiml]

People complaining about the statue coming down should just close there eyes and look the other way, that seems to be the norm at the university

[cramx3]

People complaining about the statue coming down should just close there eyes and look the other way, that seems to be the norm at the university

Way to judge an entire university based on the action of a couple.

[King Postwhore]

Well, most of the university thinks Joe did more for people and should let this slide while the real world thinks differently.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

But this scandal is not the only thing that defines Paterno. He still was an amazing football coach, regardless how this turned out.

The rest of the world seems to want to crucify him because of this one thing, which really he played a minor role in.

People complaining about the statue coming down should just close there eyes and look the other way, that seems to be the norm at the university

Really, dude, this is ridiculous. My brother attends Penn State and don't think for a goddamn second he would have done the same thing

[chrisbDTM]

i think it's pretty bad what he did, but he's treated as if he was in the shower with sandusky and the kids

[Nick]

People complaining about the statue coming down should just close there eyes and look the other way, that seems to be the norm at the university

Really, dude, this is ridiculous. My brother attends Penn State and don't think for a goddamn second he would have done the same thing

While I hope and assume that's true, people would have said the same thing about Paterno.

[King Postwhore]

Sorry but I think everybody knows how I feel about child molestation and what my nephew went through.  So if Joe knew, and he did, went to his bosses and they did nothing, shame on him for not going above his bosses and then the cover up which is now, well documented is a crime by the heads of Penn State and the Penn state heads are now getting all they deserved for the cover up.

Is it fair to the kids attending Penn State?  No, but the ones going for Football are being protected.

[cramx3]

Well, most of the university thinks Joe did more for people and should let this slide while the real world thinks differently.

Joe did a lot of good, 50 years worth at least. I don't know of anyone who is letting him slide, he deserves his criticism but he doesn't deserve this:

he's treated as if he was in the shower with sandusky and the kids

[King Postwhore]

Again, every person in power is responsible for what happened to those kids and even though Joe did go to his boss, he needed to go further when his boss did nothing about it.  Let's be honest,  Joe was more powerfull than his boss and in his postion, needed to do more.

Now it's a shame for some of the kids there in Penn State but the NCAA had to do something.  This was a large cover up by hired officials and as a body, Penn State needs to be punnished. 

[King Postwhore]

I'll give you a very good example that doesn't match the disgust of a child being forced into sex but when the Pats were caught filming.  I couldn't defend them.  Even though we all know this stuff is done in the NFL and Jimmy Johnson from the Cowboys came out himself and saif that the Cowboys did it as well durring their Super Bowl run, Bill Bellichick had a memo before the year started stating no more filming from the sidelines and yet he still did it.

So I understand the pull for a school and the team but wrong is wrong and both needed to be punished.

[cramx3]

Again, every person in power is responsible for what happened to those kids and even though Joe did go to his boss, he needed to go further when his boss did nothing about it.  Let's be honest,  Joe was more powerfull than his boss and in his postion, needed to do more.

Now it's a shame for some of the kids there in Penn State but the NCAA had to do something.  This was a large cover up by hired officials and as a body, Penn State needs to be punnished.

Joe was not larger than his boss (he got fired). At this moment there is also no evidence of a large cover up. If you were to read the freeh report you would see no evidence of a cover up. What you would see are four people who were negligent and didn't realize a guy who adopted 6 kids, coached kids in football, and started a large children chairty was a pedophile. These people should have known given that he was showering with them, but they didn't. That's where they are wrong. Right now, there is no evidence that I have seen of a cover up.

[King Postwhore]

Oh I've read it and there was a cover up.  Why do you think the sanction were levied?  If they would have come out when all the info was passing thoughout, (in which emails proved the bosses at PS knew) and got rid of Sandusky.  No penalites would havwe been brought down.

Penn State didn't do the right think and now are paying for it.

[KevShmev]

But this scandal is not the only thing that defines Paterno. He still was an amazing football coach, regardless how this turned out.

 

Who cares?  As much as I love football, in the grand scheme of things, it ain't important, even though many at Penn State are acting like it is the end of the world.  When it came down to something really important, like stopping a serial child molester when he was made aware of at least some of what was going on, Joe Paterno dropped the ball.  When you do something as awful as that, many tend to stop giving a crap about how many football games you won. 

[cramx3]

Oh I've read it and there was a cover up.  Why do you think the sanction were levied?  If they would have come out when all the info was passing thoughout, (in which emails proved the bosses at PS knew) and got rid of Sandusky.  No penalites would havwe been brought down.

Penn State didn't do the right think and now are paying for it.

Can you quote the evidence of a cover up? There lots of evidence that something was wrong, but consulting lawyers, having multiple meetings to discuss inclduing emails, and reporting to the second mile doesn't sound like cover up. Evidence may come out to show cover up, but given the evidence in the report , I just don't see it. Can you show me where I missed it?

[King Postwhore]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/12/freeh-report-penn-state-coverup-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky_n_1667727.html

[cramx3]

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/12/freeh-report-penn-state-coverup-joe-paterno-jerry-sandusky_n_1667727.html

That's an article about the report, not the report itself.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

But this scandal is not the only thing that defines Paterno. He still was an amazing football coach, regardless how this turned out.

 

Who cares?  As much as I love football, in the grand scheme of things, it ain't important, even though many at Penn State are acting like it is the end of the world.  When it came down to something really important, like stopping a serial child molester when he was made aware of at least some of what was going on, Joe Paterno dropped the ball.  When you do something as awful as that, many tend to stop giving a crap about how many football games you won.

So it's better to judge a person on one thing instead of his entire life?

Cool.

[KevShmev]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, but your vision has become as myopic as the average Penn St.'s student has, so so feel free to continue burying your head in the sand and giving a guy who protected a serial child molester the benefit of the doubt.

[skydivingninja]

I agree with PLM that this scandal isn't the only thing that defines Paterno.  He had a reputation as a fantastic football coach and, as I understand, donated a bunch of money to the university he loved.

However, everyone knows one bad action can make you the most reviled person in history.  With a crime as bad as this, and the poor way he handled it even if he didn't do anything strictly illegal, puts a huge blemish on his character that I don't think the statue should be kept up because of all the other stuff he did.  In a way, he betrayed the trust of those boys and the University itself, and given the nature of the crime, that should be inexcusable. 

I don't think Penn State's football program needs to be severely penalized though.  The current students there didn't do anything wrong.  They had no knowledge of it.  They don't deserve whatever huge sanctions the NCAA throws at them.  But I do agree with people like Kev that the University, or at least the people in charge, need to learn that Football is not everything and not a reason to let something like this go unreported.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, but your vision has become as myopic as the average Penn St.'s student has, so so feel free to continue burying your head in the sand and giving a guy who protected a serial child molester the benefit of the doubt.

and you called my vision myopic? wow. I've already said I'm not defending what happened, only that there's more to the man than this. Which YOU seem to think is the only thing worth mentioning, as this quote reveals

But this scandal is not the only thing that defines Paterno. He still was an amazing football coach, regardless how this turned out.

 

Who cares?  As much as I love football, in the grand scheme of things, it ain't important, even though many at Penn State are acting like it is the end of the world.  When it came down to something really important, like stopping a serial child molester when he was made aware of at least some of what was going on, Joe Paterno dropped the ball.  When you do something as awful as that, many tend to stop giving a crap about how many football games you won. 

Basically, you said everything else be damned, he protected a serial molester.

There's far more to the man than just that. And let me set the record straight right now, I care nothing for football whatsoever. It is by far my least favorite sport and I despise the feelings it evokes in people. I'm talking about the man Paterno, not the football program

get YOUR head out of the sand Kev

[ReaPsTA]

Basically, you said everything else be damned, he protected a serial molester.

YES!

When you cover up for a serial child rapist who you aren't even close to, it tells the rest of us pretty much everything about your character.

You might say "But he wasn't just a great football coach.  He shaped young lives.  He donated money to the school.  He molded true student athletes."

But why?  Was it to make the lives of his fellow man better?  Apparently not, since he clearly doesn't give a shit about his fellow man.  Was it for the sake of Penn State?  Apparently not, since he proudly coached for a school whose senior management covered up for a serial child rapist.

You might then say "He didn't understand what was happening."

Two things:

 - Being a football coach requires you to be sharp and have people skills to at least some degree.  I have no idea where the illusion of Joe Paterno as an old guy completely incapable of conniving came from.

 - Let's say Paterno really didn't understand - morally - what he was doing.  Stupidity and ignorance that severe should not be glorified.

Let's say Paterno's own son was raped.  Paterno decides "I'm not going to say anything about this.  I know Sandusky is out there, but I just can't put my son on that witness stand, even if he's anonymous to the public.  I owe him that as his father."

Morally debatable, but also the business of him and his son to decided.  Life isn't always neat and easy.  But in this case, it is.  Paterno had no reason whatsoever not to make it his full time job to call everyone he needed to make sure Sandusky was arrested.  He didn't do it.

 Joe Paterno's "good" deeds can be interpreted as selfless or self-serving.  Since Paterno has proven through his actions that he's incapable of actual selflessness, his other actions must be re-contextualized as self-serving.  Being self-serving is the antithesis of being a good person.

[wkiml]

Okay for all the people crying about how the University is being punished unfairly

One simple question

What punishment should the University have faced?  





By law , the university is just as responsible as  Sandusky/Paterno and the other clowns just as my company is legally responsible if I do something against the law while on company time or against the company policies and procedures

[cramx3]

Okay for all the people crying about how the University is being punished unfairly

One simple question

What punishment should the University have faced?  





By law , the university is just as responsible as  Sandusky/Paterno and the other clowns just as my company is legally responsible if I do something against the law while on company time or against the company policies and procedures

You made a good point by bolding the word university. The university is being punished by civil suits, federal violation of the clery act (I think it will be fines) and I don't have a problem with the NCAA fine and I wouldn't think a couple bowls would be bad either. But the scholarships and the wins make no sense, to me that's the NCAA contradiccting itself and making football important.

[snapple]

It unseats Paterno has the win leader among football coaches. What the hell? I've said this before. Do people just enjoy glossing over things like that?

[eric42434224]

Joe Paterno's "good" deeds can be interpreted as selfless or self-serving.  Since Paterno has proven through his actions that he's incapable of actual selflessness, his other actions must be re-contextualized as self-serving.  Being self-serving is the antithesis of being a good person.

I disagree.  The reasons for one action absolutely do not mean his reasons for all other actions are the same.  That just makes no logical sense.  Not saying all of his actions werent self-serving...just that you cant make that determination.
Good people make poor decisions all the time...sometimes really bad decisions....that doesnt necessarily make them 100% bad.

Paterno's horrible decisions regarding the abuse absolutely do not erase all the good he did.  You also should not judge him in his entirety on one extremely poor decision.  But everyone defending him does have to realize that when you do make a huge mistake like that, you do kinda forfeit having a statue in your honor at the very least, and must realize that the legacy will be severly tarnished.

As far as the Penn State punishments.  Yes, many students and atheletes who had nothing to do with the scandal have been affected.  It just seemed impossible to punish the school without affecting at least someone undeservedly.  Their anger needs to be focused on the school officials that allowed it all to happen....including the football program where it all happened.

JMO

[Sigz]

It makes literally no sense to punish the football players. If someone did something illegal, they go to jail. If they didn't, then why punish them?

I understand people think the whole 'Penn State Cult' or whatever had something to do with it, but as evidenced by this thread, fan reactions in general, and common sense, trying to kill that cult by punishing the football program only makes it worse.

[eric42434224]

The football program was punished by the NCAA because the football program broke rules, and the governing body had to hand out punishments.  This happens all the time when the people who run programs break rules...like recruiting violations...that get the program sanctioned with things like not being allowed to play in bowl games.  Players are always affected, but it isnt like it is a surprise.  Everyone knows that if a program violates rules, the program, and therefore the atheletes, will be affected.
Not sure why there is such an uproar...this has happened countless times with sports programs, as well as in every other sector of society.

[Cool Chris]

The current players can't go to a bowl game. Fretting over how this is an unfair punishment is the whole point of this issue: there are bigger concerns and issues in the world. They still do get to attend a top notch institution, work toward a degree by taking the easiest classes imaginable that are scheduled around their time, and play football in front of tens of thousands (and more on TV), all for free.

A more interesting hit by the NCAA would be no TV coverage, but then that punishes all their opponents.

I am still fine with the NCAA punishments, except for vacating the wins, which is just silly.

Re: Paterno, didn't someone ask him on TV about the charges against Sandusky, to which he replied that he had never heard of such a thing as a man sexually molesting a boy (paraphrasing)?

Here it is:

https://espn.go.com/espnw/commentary/7476452/former-penn-state-coach-joe-paterno-na%C3%AFve-not-credible

Paterno said McQueary was delicate in his description of what happened in the shower. And Paterno said it was likely just as effective as if McQueary had been explicit, if he had said a man was raping a child.

Former Penn State coach Joe Paterno was interviewed last Thursday and Friday by The Washington Post at his home in State College, Pa."I don't know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man," Paterno said.

This still makes my head spin.

[hefdaddy42]

The football program was punished by the NCAA because the football program broke rules, and the governing body had to hand out punishments.  This happens all the time when the people who run programs break rules...like recruiting violations...that get the program sanctioned with things like not being allowed to play in bowl games.  Players are always affected, but it isnt like it is a surprise.  Everyone knows that if a program violates rules, the program, and therefore the atheletes, will be affected.
Not sure why there is such an uproar...this has happened countless times with sports programs, as well as in every other sector of society.

This.  You can't punish a program without punishing the players.

[cramx3]

The football program was punished by the NCAA because the football program broke rules, and the governing body had to hand out punishments.  This happens all the time when the people who run programs break rules...like recruiting violations...that get the program sanctioned with things like not being allowed to play in bowl games.  Players are always affected, but it isnt like it is a surprise.  Everyone knows that if a program violates rules, the program, and therefore the atheletes, will be affected.
Not sure why there is such an uproar...this has happened countless times with sports programs, as well as in every other sector of society.

The uproar is because this situation is out of the NCAA jurisdiction.  In the history of the NCAA, they have never handed out sanctions related to criminal activity.  They enforce NCAA bylaws, not federal laws. 

Paterno said McQueary was delicate in his description of what happened in the shower. And Paterno said it was likely just as effective as if McQueary had been explicit, if he had said a man was raping a child.

Former Penn State coach Joe Paterno was interviewed last Thursday and Friday by The Washington Post at his home in State College, Pa."I don't know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man," Paterno said.

This still makes my head spin.

That comment by Paterno is hard to understand.  I don't really get it either, but he was old and dying.

[Sigz]

But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

[eric42434224]

The uproar is because this situation is out of the NCAA jurisdiction.  In the history of the NCAA, they have never handed out sanctions related to criminal activity.  They enforce NCAA bylaws, not federal laws. 

Quotes from NCAA:

"it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct."

"In determining the penalties for Penn State, the Executive Committee, Board and NCAA leadership considered numerous bylaws and portions of the constitution"

Actual Bylaws that were violated:

https://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207235

Not sure how anyone could possibly think that NCAA bylaws and constitution werent violated in numerous ways.
There should be criminal punishments, but the violations of NCAA rules absolutely justify the punishment.  The collateral damage is to be expected and unfortunately unavoidable.

[wkiml]

But why do you need to punish the program? Certain people committed crimes and they should and will be charged. What does how many scholarships the team can give per year or their post-season attendance have to do with that?

Same way my company would be legally on the hook if I did something illegal while working here (I work for a financial company, if I were to found guilty of insider trading or sharing information thats not yet made public, the entire firm is held responsible. No difference if its a firm or a university) They didn't show they had internal controls in place to A-stop it B-Once it was found to report it to the necesary governing authorities

its called internal controls

As Eric posted

19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.

Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen