Should Joe Paterno's statue be taken down at Penn State?

[Orbert]

That's the biggest problem right there.  They're not just punishing Penn State and "the football program" but all the kids in it now, who had nothing to do with any of this.  But I don't have a better solution.  The whole situation sucks and there's no easy way out.

[ThatcrazyKISSfan]

Yeah, it kind of is unfair to the current people.  But I think it needs to be done as a deterrent for further programs who might consider covering up criminal activity.  If SMU got the death penalty for paying their players (and yes they were punishing the current people in that case) this punishment must exceed that.

[King Postwhore]

That's the biggest problem right there.  They're not just punishing Penn State and "the football program" but all the kids in it now, who had nothing to do with any of this.  But I don't have a better solution.  The whole situation sucks and there's no easy way out.

Exactly.  No good answer really.  I just hope the NCAA helps these kids ASAP.

[El Barto]

Yeah, it kind of is unfair to the current people.  But I think it needs to be done as a deterrent for further programs who might consider covering up criminal activity.  If SMU got the death penalty for paying their players (and yes they were punishing the current people in that case) this punishment must exceed that.

I would think the impending imprisonments probably cover that better than program sanctions.

[snapple]

I think it's great. Mostly because I hate kid diddlers. And because he should have said something. And I'm a U of M fan (fuck Penn State).

[FlyingBIZKIT]

On the bright side, Bobby Bowden is now the all-time wins leader.

[El Barto]

On the bright side, Bobby Bowden is now the all-time wins leader.*

FTFY

[FlyingBIZKIT]

On the bright side, Bobby Bowden is now the all-time wins leader.*

FTFY

of course!

[cramx3]

The psu community is devastated.  I don't believe this was fair or right. Taking away wins seems like the NCAA isn't thinking right, looks like they place football above all as well.

T he money is fine and a bowl ban is fine.

[ReaPsTA]

The psu community is devastated.

That's not really an issue.  Like Cozmo said, it was always about Football in the minds of many people.  It's probably a good thing to tell people that it's not sacred.

My question is still - what's the price of doing this.  I find striking Paterno's wins particularly weird.  It's not like you can use a time machine to stop PSU from playing all those games.  Just because you say the wins don't count doesn't make it so.  It sounds like insanity to me.

[Cool Chris]

Well, 'unprecedented' certainly is an accurate description.

I don't have any major problems with this but do not have as much invested as others. I have mixed feelings with regards to the current team and its players. It really, really sucks for them, and I applaud the NCAA for letting them transfer without having to sit out (a rule I don't care for much anyway). But in the grand scheme of things, not being able to go to a bowl game is not that significant. I think that is what we have been talking about since this shit all came out. We need to re-establish some perspective here on what is important and where are priorities are.

I've never liked the vacating of wins, though. Rewriting history is problematic and arbitrary. They won those games. And they didn't do it through any specific unfair competitive advantage. Shielding a child molester didn't make the guys on the field play any better.

[cramx3]

The psu community is devastated.

That's not really an issue.

How so? Its certainly not the MAIN issue but the effect this will have on the community is huge, there are many businesses that survive based on football related income.

[CrimsonSunrise]

Just saw the punishments.... harsh.  Sucks for the kids, both current and incoming.

[wkiml]

The psu community is devastated.

That's not really an issue.

How so? Its certainly not the MAIN issue but the effect this will have on the community is huge, there are many businesses that survive based on football related income.

That's part of the problem The football program became bigger than the university itself. Too many people within the football program had too much power within the university. Not saying PSU is the only school with this issue

because of the revenues from the football program, the school admin was afraid to adminish any penalities against it internally

[ReaPsTA]

The psu community is devastated.

That's not really an issue.

How so? Its certainly not the MAIN issue but the effect this will have on the community is huge, there are many businesses that survive based on football related income.

It's an issue because people, especially Penn State devotees, are trying to make it about them and not the fact children were raped.

When there was debate over the statue, the rallying cry for keeping it up was "This Won't Help the Victims."  This argument has two issues.

1.  I don't think he helps the victims to know that someone who covered for the guy who raped them is being memorialized with a statue at Penn State.

2.  Implicit in the argument is that Paterno wasn't a part of this.  The words of the argument don't deny it, but the feeling behind it does.  If you're a Penn State student and you believe, truly, that Paterno covered it up - you would be disgusted to go to a school that pays such respect to him.  Saying "It doesn't help the victims" indicates either denial or some sort of mental disease.

The problem with all of this is that it reminds me of the Versailles treaty.  Germany lost the war, but they believed they had won and were unjustly punished.  I've seen no indication that Penn State defenders truly understand what is happening here.  Their belief in the cult of their school and in Joe Paterno is clouding them too much.  It seems to me that the punishments are creating resentment and strengthening the sense of victimization.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

The psu community is devastated.

ESPN showed the students' reactions to the ruling and I gotta be honest: If the roles were reversed and NC State's football program did what Penn State's did, as a fan I would accept any penalty imposed upon us. To watch some of those students sob and whine that their football program isn't going to be going to bowl games for the next four years... It just seemed ridiculous to me. Yes, it sucks that you're going to have a lesser fan experience than you would have had, but your football department was immoral. It had to be penalized.

As I type, I'm sitting here listening to some Penn State student named Alex on ESPN saying, "They shouldn't have taken any bowls, money, or wins from us, and they shouldn't have made us ineligible for bowl games". So then... You're saying they should have just gave you a slap on the wrist and forgotten about it?

[Dr. DTVT]

I think what cramx3 is referring to is all the hotels, restaurants, and other businesses not affiliated with university that rely on that income.

Vacating the wins is about one thing and one thing only - making someone else the all time wins leader and to remove his name from record books as much as possible.  As it stands, it's technically Bowden; but we all know PSU won those games without an unfair competitive advantage.  Also, for some reason Bowden gets to count his lower division wins as D-I wins...never understood that one, so I'm not even sure if he should be the all time win leader.  Either way, Joepa is now 5th, so it would take a lot of post-career scandels to pop up to put him back in the top 10, let alone #1.

While the athletes can transfer, the damage is already partly done.  If they go somewhere else, they are behind the learning curve of the system compared to those who are already there.  They have to relocate, which costs money.  Not all their credits transfer, so that puts them back academically.  So even transferring isn't a clean slate.

The bowl ban hurts the kids who do stay, while in a goofy way saves the athletic department money.  Bowl games are huge money sinks because of all the money spent on transportation, housing, and bonuses paid to the coaching staff - and they have to buy any tickets in their allotment not sold, which happens more than you might think.  The only way it hurts the program is it gives current players a reason to transfer, and future players a reason to go somewhere else.

Loss of scholarships is designed to prevent the team from being good.  It's almost like the NCAA is actively rooting for PSU to go 0-12 the next few years.

The fine I can understand, but I would like to see the NCAA hold off on collecting it until after all the civil suits are paid out.  Make sure the victims get first crack at the money.

They found a way to posthumously punish Paterno.  They could have slapped a "show-cause" on Spanier, but its not like he'll ever be employed again academia.  This was all a very calculated way of trying to ensure that PSU suffers years of losing and replaces Indiana as the football scrapheap of the Big 10.  I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the other Big 10 schools make a big push to get Notre Dame to join as a way of pushing PSU out the door since getting ND has always been the prize the B10 wanted, and it allows them to scuttle a school mired in scandal that only makes splashes in football and volleyball athletically.

Just to remind everyone where I stand, I used to have a dog named Joepa who died last year before any of this came to light.

[ReaPsTA]

Thinking about this - Penn State should have just gotten the death penalty.

The current punishment is just pain that reinforces the notion of victimization.

If PSU had gotten the death penalty, it would have sent an explicit message:  Rebuild this institution from the ground up.

[Dr. DTVT]

I'll give you 12 reasons they didn't get the death penalty:

$ Ohio U
@Virginia
$ Navy
$ Temple
@Illinois
Northwestern
@Iowa
Ohio State
@Purdue
@Nebraska
Indiana
Wisconsin

Forcing PSU to cancel their season would hurt these teams directly and in different ways.  All the @'s would lose revenue by not hosting a game that week.  All the $ teams are non-conference opponents who are getting paid a pretty penny to come play at State College and presumably get a butt-whoopin' (Toledo 2001 was an exception).  The other teams likely have made deposits on hotels and so forth to go to State College, plus there is a potential for unfair competition - those teams would play one less game (in some cases a conference game) which might prevent them from getting into a better bowl because they have one less opportunity to earn a win.  That's why there is not death penalty, and it will probably never be used in major college football again.

[wkiml]

I think what cramx3 is referring to is all the hotels, restaurants, and other businesses not affiliated with university that rely on that income.

Do you honestly think this will hurt their attendance? Student body and Alumni will still attend the games

[Dr. DTVT]

Students don't get hotel rooms.  The opposing team and their travel base sure do.  And I bet there are some fans and alumni who are going to say, "I'm not going to make that 8 hour one way trip this year."  Beaver Stadium holds 107,282 fans.  I bet at least 75% of them come from out of town and need a bite to eat, and probably 40% need accomodations for at least one night, day before for noon starts, day after for night games.

[King Postwhore]

I'll give you 12 reasons they didn't get the death penalty:

$ Ohio U
@Virginia
$ Navy
$ Temple
@Illinois
Northwestern
@Iowa
Ohio State
@Purdue
@Nebraska
Indiana
Wisconsin

Forcing PSU to cancel their season would hurt these teams directly and in different ways.  All the @'s would lose revenue by not hosting a game that week.  All the $ teams are non-conference opponents who are getting paid a pretty penny to come play at State College and presumably get a butt-whoopin' (Toledo 2001 was an exception).  The other teams likely have made deposits on hotels and so forth to go to State College, plus there is a potential for unfair competition - those teams would play one less game (in some cases a conference game) which might prevent them from getting into a better bowl because they have one less opportunity to earn a win.  That's why there is not death penalty, and it will probably never be used in major college football again.

This 100%

Interesting on one sport radio station here in Boston, they are not happy and wanted the death penalty.  They wanted to change the culture of Penn State and how it's Football first.  They wanted to change the way the town and the fans link football to the school instead of the importance of school itself.

[eric42434224]

The effect on the program is basically the same as the death penalty.  The program is crippled, and will be crippled for a long time.  It may take decades to recover.  It is a long slow death.

[ThatcrazyKISSfan]

Wow, I just read all the sanctions, I think this is perhaps a tad harsh.  60 Million.....this could bankrupt PSU when you combine it with all the lawsuits that are coming PSU's way.  I mean that wouldn't be too much against those responsible, but all the responsible parties have now been removed right?

[KevShmev]

Someone should really tell all Penn State students and alumni to shut up about this and stop embarrassing themselves.

https://wnep.com/2012/07/23/penn-state-sanctions-grads-react/

 One look around Tom and Sally Price’s home in Factoryville and it is clear that they are Penn State proud.

Tom Price is a Penn State grad and both are die-hard football fans. They have been to almost every home game since 1986.

They watched the news Monday of the sanctions against their school with heavy hearts.

“I just can’t put my arms around it, it’s, to me, it was our 9/11 today. I just saw planes crashing into towers,” said Tom Price.

-------

What a stupid ass.

[Cool Chris]

I saw that too (not that particular story, but):

Emmert: "Bowl ban for 4 years"
PSU Students watching live: "OMG!"

Your team won't get to go to a bowl. Get over it. If this is drastically affecting your life, you need to reassess your priorities.

Which I guess is what ths whole ugly situation is all about, huh?

[eric42434224]

Understandable why fans are disappointed.  They should be, with the ruling, and the conduct of their school's officials.  The PSU victims that really are underserving (obviously not talking about the abuse victims) are the football program itself, the players, and the fans.  They all have to pay the price for what a few individuals did, and allowed to happen.
I dont feel sorry for the institution or those individuals involved (obviously not the victims)...but it is unfortunate that so many innocent will pay the price.

[KevShmev]

Hey, I get that most of us in life are the most concerned with what affects us the most personally (even if many won't admit it), even while empathizing with the (to us) faceless victims, but comments like that just show how crazy people get with hero worship, school pride, etc.  Having school pride is one thing, but taking it to that kind of level is just not healthy, and can cause you to come off like a stupid ass when you compare something like a statue of someone who protected a serial child molester being taken down to 9-11.

[Sigz]

“I just can’t put my arms around it, it’s, to me, it was our 9/11 today. I just saw planes crashing into towers,”

LOL

[ResultsMayVary]

“I just can’t put my arms around it, it’s, to me, it was our 9/11 today. I just saw planes crashing into towers,” said Tom Price.

That's just fucking ridiculous.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Kev, I'm sorry, but you sound just as ridiculous as the Penn State students, albeit in the opposite direction. The 9/11 comment notwithstanding, you seem dead set on punishing innocents for others' crimes

Bingo, Cozmo.  And I don't think Penn St. will get the death penalty, but they should get hammered really hard for this.  A message has to be sent.

Why? Because a few higher ups fucked up? Is it right to punish the current players because of something they have no control over?

Would you jail a serial killer's child for his crimes? I would think not. I just don't understand the harsh penalties.

And this coming from someone who absolutely loathes American Football and the feelings they evoke in people (I see football rile some of you guys up).

[King Postwhore]

PLM.  From what I've read any player can transfer and play right away AND keep their scholarships, so for the players that's damn good.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Right, that's well and good, but they're punishing the wrong people. It was the higher ups that fucked up, not the players.

[axeman90210]

Right, that's well and good, but they're punishing the wrong people. It was the higher ups that fucked up, not the players.

But the higher ups fucked up while trying to protect the aura and mystique surrounding the football team, and that was created/perpetuated by everyone else. The higher ups came to the conclusion that football was more important than protecting children because of the reverence everyone had for the football program. This is how the football program is made to be not that fucking important.

[j]

I know I'm way late here and I'm sure that this has been discussed to death by now, but I just felt like chiming in with my 2 cents:

I couldn't give less of a fuck about Penn State, but the punishments imposed by the NCAA on the school's football program are completely ridiculous.  The only people being affected are people with no culpability, involvement, or even association with the scandal in question.  The punishments are entirely football-related, when the scandal was of a moral nature.  And even if that is disregarded, the NCAA went way too far.

The wrongdoings of the responsible parties are already being addressed through the proper channels by the proper regulatory and legal bodies, as they should be.

Note that I am not talking about tearing down Paterno's statue.  I personally don't agree with it, but I can at least understand the argument for it.  And either way, Kev's right about the importance of all of this stuff being grossly overblown by a lot of people.

-J