Author Topic: Growing up too soft  (Read 8178 times)

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Offline Adami

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2012, 12:51:39 AM »
Dude, there's a vast difference between the war if Afghanistan (and until recently Iraq) and WWII.


WWII was something people believed in fighting for. People don't agree with the principles of these wars, it has nothing to do with not giving a damn about one another. Not that I don't agree that people are selfish pricks.
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Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2012, 12:59:34 AM »
That's kinda what I'm getting at though. People went to World War II because they gave a damn. No one gave a damn about Vietnam, but they were still forced to go because I guess that mentality of shared sacrifice and this idea that waging war should be something all of society engages is was still lingering, plus the draft. Today's wars don't have any of that. We just send the same kids to fight over and over. It's not about sacrifice, or society, and we remove all personal sacrifice from the equation. I don't think that's because we've gone soft as a nation, but more because we've stopped giving a damn

Offline Adami

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2012, 01:03:16 AM »
That's kinda what I'm getting at though. People went to World War II because they gave a damn. No one gave a damn about Vietnam, but they were still forced to go because I guess that mentality of shared sacrifice and this idea that waging war should be something all of society engages is was still lingering, plus the draft. Today's wars don't have any of that. We just send the same kids to fight over and over. It's not about sacrifice, or society, and we remove all personal sacrifice from the equation. I don't think that's because we've gone soft as a nation, but more because we've stopped giving a damn

It's because of the war, not the people. Trust me. Not every war is just and worth fighting for.



Anywho, I was thinking about the problem you have Brother H of being soft and I here's your solution











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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2012, 01:04:45 AM »
People in the United States just don't believe in ANYTHING that they'd be willing to put themselves and their lives on the line for.

It's one thing to say that people are lazy for refusing to stand up for things they believe in.  But you seem to be saying that people are selfish for refusing to stand up for things they don't believe in.  Why should someone put themself and their life on the line for Obamacare if they think it is a bad idea?   People should volunteer to fight in wars for causes they don't support?   



Anyway, gender role discussion aside, I think the point of the thread is that people just aren't as tough as they used to be.  Which is true, but I don't think you can blame that on society.  People can still choose to be tough if they want to.  If you want to enroll in bootcamp or take karate lessons and become a bona fide badass, no one's stopping you.  It's just that nowadays no one's forcing you, either.  I have trouble seeing that as a bad thing.
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Jaffa

Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2012, 01:11:37 AM »
It's one thing to say that people are lazy for refusing to stand up for things they believe in.  But you seem to be saying that people are selfish for refusing to stand up for things they don't believe in.  Why should someone put themself and their life on the line for Obamacare if they think it is a bad idea?   People should volunteer to fight in wars for causes they don't support? 

No, I'm saying people shouldn't elect in someone who promises to do that, and then throw him under the bus when they realize "Oh, shit, you mean we have to pay for this?" But that's the society we live in.

Offline Adami

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2012, 01:15:10 AM »
It's one thing to say that people are lazy for refusing to stand up for things they believe in.  But you seem to be saying that people are selfish for refusing to stand up for things they don't believe in.  Why should someone put themself and their life on the line for Obamacare if they think it is a bad idea?   People should volunteer to fight in wars for causes they don't support? 

No, I'm saying people shouldn't elect in someone who promises to do that, and then throw him under the bus when they realize "Oh, shit, you mean we have to pay for this?" But that's the society we live in.

Good lord dude, start a thread in PR. What you're posting about (I assume) has nothing to do with Brother H's thread about erectile dysfunction.
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Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2012, 01:19:47 AM »
lol

The OP seems to be saying that men aren't "manning up" like they used to. I agree with that, I just don't see it as "going soft". It's the opposite really. It's this f-all, "I'm in it for me!" kinda attitude where doing good for others is only done when convenient. I don't want to touch PR!

But if we turn this into a discussion on erectile dysfunctions that's cool too :P

Offline alirocker08

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2012, 03:12:43 AM »
I'm more of a man than all of you.
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Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2012, 03:16:18 AM »
 :metal

Offline Gadough

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2012, 03:16:34 AM »
I'm more of a man than all of you.

Elves =/= Humans
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Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2012, 03:20:06 AM »
lol

The OP seems to be saying that men aren't "manning up" like they used to. I agree with that, I just don't see it as "going soft". It's the opposite really. It's this f-all, "I'm in it for me!" kinda attitude where doing good for others is only done when convenient. I don't want to touch PR!

But if we turn this into a discussion on erectile dysfunctions that's cool too :P

I agree with you in the sense that it the "wassinit for me?" attitude isn't always the best one to be bringing to the table.  I do not think it's been much more prevalent now than it's ever been.   

Offline robwebster

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2012, 05:18:45 AM »
I think, and I'm aware I'm pushing this thread further into P&R here, but to defend H a little bit, I think there is a very big difference between a gender role and a gender identity.

The former is decided for you, and it's a prejudice. It closes doors, it clouds judgment, and it can in the worst scenario map out your life before you're old enough to read this sentence - although in fairness you do need to be quite old to read it cos it's got a swear word in (fucking) brackets. There's still more than enough inequality here in the first world, but if life's a lottery then in some corners of the planet being born a woman is a guaranteed losing ticket. The latter, though, the identity bit, I quite like. It's a similar beast, inasmuch as people can and will still use them to form snap decisions about you right off the bat, but a person or demographic owns an identity. It puts them in the driver's seat. There's more freedom to flount the stereotype.

I live in a little village in the arse end of nowhere. It's full of pensioners and young families, and walking to the polling station to vote anything other than conservative is frankly a waste of good shoe rubber. My votes never leave the town hall. And you're probably already building up a little picture in your head of the kind of person who lives here.

Because identities help us do that. If I described someone as a citizen of my village, someone fairly local will already be building up a mental picture. Old, married, conservative, sweet-tempered, bit too much money - they've got the idea! I'm a grand total of exactly none of those, but I still like the identity. If people were to assume I was in the Cameron Youth, if they used my heritage as a stick to beat me with, then yes, I'd be very annoyed. I am not defending prejudice at all, and the second an identity closes a door to someone, the second it's used to deny someone's access to a new stage of life, I'm in a position of staunch disgust. But I'd rather the village kept its connotation for better or for worse than lost its identity.

That's kind of what I love about words. Take the word "suited." Say someone's a "suited man" and connotations are already growing like tendrils out of the sides. He's wealthy, slick, clean, fashionable, refined pallet - all you need is the two words and you've already got a vague sense of who he is, what he's about. You could be wrong, but the ability to sketch him in so quickly is absolutely superb. "Foul-mouthed" is a good one. As soon as I say "foul-mouthed," you've got a vague image of the person. Or "Scientologist." All rich with connotations.

I'm all for gender equality. In fact, I'm constantly disgusted by how much further we've still got to go. Why the fuck, in 2012, are politicians still middle class white men? Why are there still a thousand comments on the end of every comedienne's YouTube video saying "women arent funny, get back in the kitchen?" It's bollocks, it's institutionalised sexism, and it needs to be fucking stopped. But at the same time, I love the richness that connotation adds to our language. I wouldn't say I want girls to be girls and boys to be boys - I want people to be the people they want to be and fuck the guiderails - but I like that the two genders have very individual identities, different codes and different characters. I'm firmly against the homogenisation of gender - and while, yes, I did gasp a little at the OP, it'd be insincere of me to claim I'm not broadly in favour of archetypes. The only bit I disapprove of is when people use them as sticks to bludgeon each other with. So while I don't want girls to feel they have to be girls and boys to feel they have to be boys - everyone should have the freedom to defy every single prejudice thrown at them - I like the idea of each gender retaining some sense of girlishness and boyishness. Our own cultures and sets of values, with plenty of crossover, each on each gender's own terms.

Signed,
 A man who hates sports, moisturises, would be rubbish in a war, and is frankly too klutzy for any form of manual labour.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2012, 05:30:47 AM »
Man here.

I think we've become more self absorbed as a society.  Not soft.  Every kid needs to have their own room, internet on their phone and now have a sense of entitlement.   Old fogey rant out.
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Offline Sketchy

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2012, 05:59:14 AM »
I think Rob got it pretty much spot on there. It's pretty much exactly the same where I live.

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Offline AndyDT

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2012, 06:48:27 AM »
Using our aggression positively is a part of being an adult.

Re. dominance - the Bible for one is pretty clear that men are to be have the overall leadership in a relationship and arguably in spiritual teaching.

The Tao te ching talks about *everybody* adopting feminine energy (masculine and feminine energy are part of both men and women according to the I-Ching which came before the Tao) and not being controlling. I don't see any incompatibility at all with Jesus' teaching in this.

Offline senecadawg2

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2012, 07:05:35 AM »
I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.

I'll just leave it at this...
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Offline Ravenheart

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2012, 07:07:23 AM »
AndyDT, ladies and gentlemen.

Offline skydivingninja

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2012, 08:19:13 AM »
I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.

I'll just leave it at this...

Summed me up as well.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2012, 09:14:30 AM »
It closes doors, it clouds judgment, and it can in the worst scenario map out your life before you're old enough to read this sentence - although in fairness you do need to be quite old to read it cos it's got a swear word in (fucking) brackets.

This has got to be one of the better sentences I have ever read. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline lonestar

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2012, 09:29:23 AM »
Still staying the fuck out of this one.

Offline Implode

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2012, 09:37:23 AM »
You know that's just teasing us.

I spend a lot of time on Tumblr, where there is a huge movement for not only gender equality but acceptance of non-traditional genders. What about people who are gender fluid and don't necessarily identify with one gender? Or transgenders? Everything is becoming less black and white every day.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2012, 11:53:20 AM »
Still staying the fuck out of this one.

Actually, one could make the argument that you are not staying out of this one, and have in fact come in several times.

:neverusethis:

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Is the younger generation too soft?
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2012, 11:56:03 AM »
I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.

I find that most of the men who always talk about being a real man are dbags who frequent strip bars, get in bar fights, and are the guys who get pissed when someone accidently bumps into them in a crowded room.

Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2012, 01:28:24 PM »
I have absolutely no problem with any of this, and find the entire concept of being 'a real man' ridiculous.

I'll just leave it at this...

Summed me up as well.
Not me. Time for me to 'splain.

My grandfather was a real man. He could build stuff, destroy stuff, cut down trees, shoot guns, play sports, and then some. He lived through the dust bowl, the depression, worked in the CCC, and served in the Air Force during WWII. He liked his coffee blacker than black, wasn't afraid of anything, and could handle any amount of pain.

He also had a heart of gold. Never has this world seen a kinder and gentler soul. His home was a safe haven for people seeking refuge. He was selfless, and would literally give someone the shirt off his back. He treated everyone with respect and he put his family first. No one could teach me how to care for people better than he could.

I think when people talk about the notion of a "real man," they forget the contents of my second paragraph are as important to that image as the contents of the first. The strongest muscle in a real man is his heart.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2012, 01:31:30 PM »
My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
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Offline MetalJunkie

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2012, 01:34:20 PM »
My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
At this point, it's just semantics. If we had a room full of good people, half men and half women, then by my definition, half would be "real men." I guess the other half would be "real women."
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2012, 01:41:13 PM »
My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
At this point, it's just semantics. If we had a room full of good people, half men and half women, then by my definition, half would be "real men." I guess the other half would be "real women."

What if we had a room full of people exactly fitting your description of your grandfather, except half of them were women?  Should we then come up with a term that accurately describes them all rather than separating them by gender? 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2012, 01:52:43 PM »
My point is that that stuff isn't specific to being a 'real man'. It's just called being a good person.
At this point, it's just semantics. If we had a room full of good people, half men and half women, then by my definition, half would be "real men." I guess the other half would be "real women."

What if we had a room full of people exactly fitting your description of your grandfather, except half of them were women?  Should we then come up with a term that accurately describes them all rather than separating them by gender?
The term for that is 'badass.' :)

Offline Gadough

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Re: Not growing up with the experience of gender norms
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2012, 02:47:27 PM »
I watch My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. Pinkie Pie is my favorite pony.

That is my contribution to this thread.

On this, you and I shall always be on common ground, my friend.  :tup

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Offline DebraKadabra

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2012, 04:06:26 PM »
I'm just here to give props to rob for such an excellent post.  Cheers, mate. :clap:

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2012, 10:09:35 PM »
Nice post, Rob! I agree with that completely.
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2012, 10:11:28 PM »
That's what I love about robwebster.  Two people can completely disagree with each other but still agree with what robwebster has to say. 
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline Siberian Khatru

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2012, 01:35:34 AM »
Well, the topic started as something that sounded borderline masochistic, and then softened, and then became something else, and now we're all just high-fiving each other over the notion the gender norms shouldn't be oppressive, but most of us still prefer girls act a little girly and boys a little manly.

I'm not sure how we got here, and I feel blown-off and tricked into wasting my time by the OP, but I'm in general agreement with everyone now it seems so w/e.

Offline MasterShakezula

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2012, 03:07:40 AM »
That's just the way of our village, Mr.-second-best-song-on-Yes's-best-album.  Even the least happening of OPs can still lead to good times and fine wine for all.  This isn't some random-ass music community; only the liking (presently or in the past) of a semi-popular progressive metal band could have really brought such a magical group of weirdasses.  (I suppose it could have happened on a Bacon or 9gag pic fanforum, but let's get real now; if there was a joint forum for those subjects, it'd probably compromise >69% of the Internet and their illiterate pets.)

That said, it's cool to folks to be however they're feeling.  If some dudes and gals are feeling that they're the Ariana Schwarzenegger and Arnold Grande types, it's damn fine that they can do that.  It's just as fine for others to be completely androgynous.  I bet there are some odd folks who are somewhere in-between those extremes.  As long as everyone's being what they want and no one's getting hurt (without consent and proper safety precautions), we're all cool.

Even H, or Japanese gatelike-structure, or whatever his stagename is.  He gave us this thread.  That's not too bad for a 20-something who can't get his crank a-yankin'.

Offline Jaffa

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Re: Growing up too soft
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2012, 03:18:25 AM »
I'm not sure how we got here, and I feel blown-off and tricked into wasting my time by the OP

I really think you two were just using the word 'soft' differently.  It seems to me that you were taking it to mean caring and worrying about others, as in the context of 'soft and sensitive.'  Whereas I think H was using it as the opposite of tough, as in the context of 'soft and weak.'  Maybe I'm wrong.
Sincerely,
Jaffa