The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread

[TAC]

Wow, I dig TMOLS...  it's wayyyyyy better than even PoW, not to mention other songs in the catalog (including most of WDADU, Wait for Sleep, Lifting Shadows, You not me, etc etc...)

[bosk1]

And some people DO get it and don't find it nearly as interesting as the bulk of their music.

[Dublagent66]

Well, that's not exactly how they put it.  Thanks for the clarification.

[Phoenix87x]

This album I'm somewhat mixed on. Its starts out very strong with Presence of enemies 1 (still love this song, and was always impressed with it)

Love forsaken. Always felt it was very catchy

Constant motion (you can tell they were going for a certain style, and I have grown to like it over time. I think it works for the most part)

Dark eternal night (Catchy song. Does a lot of cool stuff. I don't have any real issues with it. Is it kinda corny? I don't know, but I like it)

--Up to this point in the album I am totally on board, and very much enjoying the album

Repentance- God, does this thing drag on. Its doesn't even feel like a song imo and this was the first time in DTs history where I was like "what is this"

Prophets- The less said about this song the better. Sorry to anyone that likes it, but I've always skipped right through.

--At this point the entire flow, and feel of the album is out the window (which is why I always just skipped those two tracks)

Ministry - Never had any issues with this song. Not my favorite, but its fine

Presence II -  "Dark master, my soul is yours..." remove that bit of cheese and this is a great song. It still is a very decent song regardless, but I role my eyes whenever I start hearing DT lyrics about Ghouls and goblins and corny dungeons and dragons shit.  Zeppelin can get away with lord of rings lyrics, and Rush can pull off tower Necromancer lyrics, but I'm not feelin it with DT.


Overall this is an album I like a lot despite its blemishes. And if I am in the right mood, it really hits the spot

[kaos2900]

I originally voted Pretty bad, but has some good points. I'm currently working my backwards through the DT albums and that opinion hasn't changed. For me SC is easily my least favorite DT album and it's not even close.

[bosk1]

Good excuse to listen to this album.  Thanks for bumping this thread!

[lovethedrake]

I voted for "Terrible" assuming this is grading on a DT scale.    I still love the album because its DT and I still put it on a fair amount but I consider it to be in the "worst albums by DT" category along with ADTOE and Octavarium.     

At least ADTOE and Octavarium each have an amazing epic though while SC has nothing that I would even consider nominating for a top 50 DT song.    Its way too metal for my taste and I hate the way Labrie is used.   The only song that could have been amazing is Repentance and it almost seems like they decided to stop writing it halfway through. 

[Architeuthis]

Repentance is the weakest track on the album imo, it's just boring to me and a buzzkill ( Even though this is a song about sobering up and righting the wrongs) . So I guess it is supposed to be a buzzkill. 

This is also the appropriate thread to discuss TDEN! 

[Dream Team]

To me, Constant Motion is a much better "dumb metal song" than TDEN. Better riffs, solo, drumming, everything.

[Ninjabait]

Sytematic Chaos is easily one of my least favorite DT albums and is imo one of the worst in their oeuvre. Buuuut...it's still not a half bad album. In fact, as far as progressive metal goes, it's above average. The rest of DT's catalog just outclasses it.

In the Presence of Enemies: A really solid epic. Has a lot of great moments and is fun from start to finish.
Forsaken: Underrated imo. A catchy, fun track with a great piano riff and a cool solo.
Constant Motion: Rock Band made me hate this otherwise great song. Why is it so hard? Why?
The Dark Eternal Night: Is it cheesy? Yes. Is it fun? Also yes.
Repentance: No.
Prophets of War: Also underrated imo.
Ministry of Lost Souls: Much better in the Symphonic Theater of Dreams version, but a really beautiful song with a giant space flea middle section.  The symphonic version makes it actually work and is definitely Top 10 DT.

[Dream Team]

Funny thing is, Repentance seems to be most people's least favorite outside of POW, but to me that is the 1 song on the album with genuine emotion and there are some really nice melodies in the first half especially the interlude before the 2nd verse.

[Ben_Jamin]

Repentance is a nice mellow song. Only thing is the end Drags on with the "Ahhs"

I love Prophets of War, its a fun song. But of the live version I saw, didn't translate to well live. MP didn't bother doing the background vocals which I thought we wouldve done.

[bosk1]

Repentence has some amazing moments and is incredible in its concept and for what the band did with it.  But in terms of the actual execution and whether it actually inspires a desire to re-listen, that's where it falls way short for me and falls to the bottom of the pile.  It's just too repetitive and drones on far too long.  The apology section, for example, is a brilliant concept.  Mike's idea for that, and putting it all together--incredibly creative.  But it isn't something I want to listen to after the first few times either.

[Adami]

Repentence has some amazing moments and is incredible in its concept and for what the band did with it.  But in terms of the actual execution and whether it actually inspires a desire to re-listen, that's where it falls way short for me and falls to the bottom of the pile.  It's just too repetitive and drones on far too long.  The apology section, for example, is a brilliant concept.  Mike's idea for that, and putting it all together--incredibly creative.  But it isn't something I want to listen to after the first few times either.

No.

Song is awesome. All 5000 minutes or whatever of it.

[Mladen]

If there's any part of it that drags, it's the spoken word section at the very end. It's still a great song overall.

[As I Am]

I "like" SC but it's not one of my favorites and I did like it much more when it originally came out. Just gasn't stood up as well as most of their others IMHO.

[NoseofNicko]

Can’t dislike an album with a song like In The Presence of Enemies. Impossible.

[Lonk]

Systemic chaos has some good songs and probably my favorite drum lines/work in DT’s discography.

[Ninjabait]

The main thing that drags Repentance down for me is the spoken word portions. It's a good concept on paper, but I don't think that it was executed that well. Whenever I listen to it, I find it grating and it's information overload when all of them are going at once. It also starts dragging in certain parts, especially towards the end. I feel like there's a good 7-8min song in there, because the first half of the song is awesome. But as soon as the spoken word section comes in, the song loses all of its steam.

[Dedalus]

Years go by, and I do not know which album I hate most: SC or BCSL.

ITPOE 1 - It's not so bad
Forsaken - WTF?
Constant Motion - Funny enough. Nice drum line.
TDEN - WTF? 2
Repentance - So long, so boring. Restitution part is completely bad. Cool solo, though.
POW - An interesting idea, but it was not so well executed.
TMOLS - Could be half the length, easily.
ITPOE - I needed to hear this now, because I couldn't remember it correctly. Very long, not so good and worse than the first part.

SC has some good moments, like great guitar solos, interesting bass lines, but as an album it's pretty bad.

[gzarruk]

Can’t dislike an album with a song like In The Presence of Enemies. Impossible.

This.

The main thing that drags Repentance down for me is the spoken word portions. It's a good concept on paper, but I don't think that it was executed that well. Whenever I listen to it, I find it grating and it's information overload when all of them are going at once. It also starts dragging in certain parts, especially towards the end. I feel like there's a good 7-8min song in there, because the first half of the song is awesome. But as soon as the spoken word section comes in, the song loses all of its steam.

I agree. The spoken word section and all the "ahhh" parts make it drag. I like the song untill the end of the guitar solo (very good solo btw).

[BeatriceNB]

This album is in my bottom 3 DT albums, and while it has very good moments, as a whole, it falls flat, in my opinion. And I think describing each track is easier to me:

•ITPOE (as a whole) is a highlight of the album; overall it is Proggy, catchy, and creates good imagery. 9/10

•Forsaken is catchy and enjoyable, but it's a bit "meh". 7/10

•Constant Motion has some Metallica ingredients that I like, but it is not astonishing (pun intended). 7/10

•Dark Eternal Night is another highlight; is far from the best of DT, but it has such a good chorus, and the instrumental section is perfect. 8/10

•Repentance, oh, Repentance. I love this song a lot, and the Opeth influence that it has is beautiful. Many people say that it drags for too long, but I don't think so. I have to say that Post-Rock is one of my favourite genres ever, so I guess my love for the song has something to do with that (both Repentance and many Post-Rock tracks have this thing of dragging for too long, while setting an specific mood). 10/10

•Prophets Of War is a cool song. I'm not a fan of Muse (they bore me, except for some songs from their last album), and I think that DT did Muse better than Muse in this track. I like the Rap part too, haha. 7,5/10

•Ministry Of Lost Souls is in my top 15 DT songs, really. I fell in love with this song the first time I listened to it. The lyrics, the vocals, the instrumental section, the outro... I love everything in this song. 11/11 (it goes up to eleven)


Systematic Chaos isn't a bad album by any means, and I actually find myself enjoying the album every time I listen to it. But as a whole, it kind of lacks a clear direction, and feels more like a collection of songs than a cohesive record (like, let's say, ADTOE or I&W). As a whole -and not the average rate of the songs-, I think this album is a 7/10 one.

[IDontNotDoThings]

This album is in my bottom 3 DT albums, and while it has very good moments, as a whole, it falls flat, in my opinion. And I think describing each track is easier to me:

•ITPOE (as a whole) is a highlight of the album; overall it is Proggy, catchy, and creates good imagery. 9/10

•Forsaken is catchy and enjoyable, but it's a bit "meh". 7/10

•Constant Motion has some Metallica ingredients that I like, but it is not astonishing (pun intended). 7/10

•Dark Eternal Night is another highlight; is far from the best of DT, but it has such a good chorus, and the instrumental section is perfect. 8/10

•Repentance, oh, Repentance. I love this song a lot, and the Opeth influence that it has is beautiful. Many people say that it drags for too long, but I don't think so. I have to say that Post-Rock is one of my favourite genres ever, so I guess my love for the song has something to do with that (both Repentance and many Post-Rock tracks have this thing of dragging for too long, while setting an specific mood). 10/10

•Prophets Of War is a cool song. I'm not a fan of Muse (they bore me, except for some songs from their last album), and I think that DT did Muse better than Muse in this track. I like the Rap part too, haha. 7,5/10

•Ministry Of Lost Souls is in my top 15 DT songs, really. I fell in love with this song the first time I listened to it. The lyrics, the vocals, the instrumental section, the outro... I love everything in this song. 11/11 (it goes up to eleven)


Systematic Chaos isn't a bad album by any means, and I actually find myself enjoying the album every time I listen to it. But as a whole, it kind of lacks a clear direction, and feels more like a collection of songs than a cohesive record (like, let's say, ADTOE or I&W). As a whole -and not the average rate of the songs-, I think this album is a 7/10 one.

I think you may be the first person I've seen that prefers the second half of SC to the first. 

[ReaPsTA]

For all the parts of this album that don't work, the ones that do are so good it doesn't really matter. In this Presence of Enemies Part 1 grooves in a way that most Dream Theater songs don't, and the way it builds to the end is so wonderfully sinister. Forsaken hits all the "standard song" marks perfectly and tells a nice story. Repentance might be long, but there isn't another Dream Theater song with a remotely similar atmosphere. And The Ministry of Lost Souls is an under-appreciated top-Tier Dream Theater song. On top of all this you get three of Petrucci's best solos (ITPOE Pt. 1 and the two in Ministry).

So yes yes Dark Eternal Night is about monsters whatever. That song even has the great outro riff with the Continuum solo over it.

[EPIC Outro]

I smiled when I heard the opening riff of TDEN for the first time. It sounded unlike anything they had written before.

I love this album.

[Mladen]

To me, the album has two sides - the epic side and the fun side. The epics have all aged better, with some of them being among their best songs of all time. The shorter tracks that aim for being more rock and roll and maybe slightly tongue-in-cheek are solid at worst and still very listenable. I think it's a great album overall, one of their more underrated ones.

[Grappler]

Average.

The only songs that I ever listen to are Forsaken (one of the best 'songs' that they've written that is concise), Constant Motion and Dark Eternal Night.

The rest of the album is completely forgettable to me. 

[cramx3]

Average for me.  It's near the bottom of my DT album rankings, but that doesn't mean it's bad since I like all of their albums but this just has a few songs I really am not interested in that holds it down.  There's a few awesome songs here as well of course.

[mikeyd23]

Average for me.  It's near the bottom of my DT album rankings, but that doesn't mean it's bad since I like all of their albums but this just has a few songs I really am not interested in that holds it down.  There's a few awesome songs here as well of course.

This is pretty much my opinion on SC as well. It's hit or miss for me.

[Zydar]

I very rarely listen to SC these days. When I do, it's often just ITPOE, CM and TDEN that I listen to. It has two of my least favourite DT songs ever (TMOLS and Repentance) to hold it down.

It gets some sentimental points though, since I became a DT fan around the time of release of this album, and I listened to it a lot back then.

[cramx3]

This was also my first album where I was already a fan and following the release process and then the following tour was my first time seeing them live so there is some sentimental value to that.  I've also seen every song of the album live 

[Architeuthis]

The only songs that I ever listen to are Forsaken (one of the best 'songs' that they've written that is concise), Constant Motion and Dark Eternal Night.

Forsaken is indeed a great song, it has a bit of an Evenescance feel to it.  Constant Motion rocks and has a Metallica vibe going on.
TDEN is completely original to me and all Dream Theater. I've had a friend or two say that it reminded them of Mudvane, but I'm not real familiar with that band.

[JLa]

Skipping through the album while I'm reading this thread; it's been a while since I played SC from start to finish. It's not rubbish (it's DT, how could it be), but not my favorite at all either.

Highlights: In the Presence of Enemies 1+2 (why did they cut it in two? Poor decision!), Constant Motion and The Ministry of Lost Souls

I don't care much for the rest. Forsaken has its moments but is also terribly cheesy. TDEN ... ohmylord. Just, no. Repentance is interesting the first time you hear it. The best part of Prophets is that video where James is faking an Indian accent.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Controversial opinion: I think splitting ITPOE into two parts was exactly what the song needed.

1) That pause is really jarring & makes the song feel somewhat disjointed when combined.
2) Part II works really well as a standalone epic. It has a really clear build-up & payoff from each of its four sections, & that doesn't work as well when you add in the sections from Part I.
3) I don't think any of the other tracks would be good openers or closers (or at least not as good as the ITPOE parts).

[Another_Won]

Controversial opinion: I think splitting ITPOE into two parts was exactly what the song needed.

1) That pause is really jarring & makes the song feel somewhat disjointed when combined.
2) Part II works really well as a standalone epic. It has a really clear build-up & payoff from each of its four sections, & that doesn't work as well when you add in the sections from Part I.
3) I don't think any of the other tracks would be good openers or closers (or at least not as good as the ITPOE parts).

If you have to split a song into two parts then this one was done pretty well.  I enjoy the transition from Pt1 to Forsaken as well as from TMoLS to Pt2.