Poll

Your rating of SC...

One of DT's best
27 (9.6%)
A strong album
97 (34.4%)
Average
81 (28.7%)
Pretty bad, but has some good points
64 (22.7%)
Terrible
13 (4.6%)

Total Members Voted: 274

Author Topic: The Systematic Chaos Appreciation (and explanation of disappreciation) Thread  (Read 17951 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic.  Bad lyrics are bad lyrics.  A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
Here you have the exact parallel posted by yourself...

Seriously, arguing about every single detail about how something is written never gets the discussion anywhere, and in my book it usually counts as "can't explain my opinion, so let's derail it a bit".
WTF

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Offline robwebster

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And it doesn't matter that the song isn't trying to be a deep philosophical epic.  Bad lyrics are bad lyrics.  A song can be a lighthearted drinking song and still have well-written lyrics.
I've never quite got what's wrong with them. They are incredibly frantic and energetic. Like, majorly so. I can't think of any way they could have done that better, or come up with a more appropriate subject for the song, at that matter.

But hey! 'Sjust me.

Offline Gadough

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Even if you hate the album, I don't see how you can't like The Ministry of Lost Souls. One of DT's best songs period, in my opinion. At the very least, it's certainly the best track on the album.
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Offline Adami

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Even if you hate the album, I don't see how you can't like The Ministry of Lost Souls. One of DT's best songs period, in my opinion. At the very least, it's certainly the best track on the album.

Aside from the instrumental section which is just totally out of no where.

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Offline Darkes7

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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback. The instrumental section is dramatic and dark, fitting perfectly into the mood and theme of the song.

And if you think the TMOLS section is out of nowhere but think The Count of Tuscany is perfect length and doesn't have any excessive instrumental moments, I don't know what to say.

Offline tri.ad

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In defense of TCOT, the transition from the unison to the ambient part is much better crafted that the transition to the instrumental section in TMOLS.

The only part of TCOT that could be classified as "not really necessary" is the JR unison before the ambient part (even JLB thought that it was kinda out of place); but the rest of the instrumental work in TCOT is perfect or at least close to it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 06:46:08 AM by tri.ad »
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Offline Silver Tears

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I'd say it's average, it has some decent songs but Dream Theater can and have done a lot better.

Offline Darkes7

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In defense of TCOT, the transition from the unison to the ambient part is much better crafted that the transition to the instrumental section in TMOLS.

The only part of TCOT that could be classified as "not really necessary" is the JR unison before the ambient part (even JLB thought that it was kinda out of place); but the rest of the instrumental work in TCOT is perfect or at least close to it.
TCOT has instrumental sections before and after every single vocal section. TMOLS has one instrumental section which is in the right place. Even if the transition isn't perfect, it doesn't destroy the flow of the song.

Offline tri.ad

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TMOLS has one instrumental section which is in the right place. Even if the transition isn't perfect, it doesn't destroy the flow of the song.

I never said it did. But in my opinion, people wouldn't see the instrumental section in such a negative light if there was a better build-up to it (which would have had to be pretty long, but if it had helped maintaining the flow in a better way...).

TCOT has instrumental sections before and after every single vocal section.

Let's break it down... There is a (long) intro, a longer vocal section with a few instrumental breaks in there, the real instrumental section, the breakdown with another vocal section, and the outro. I don't really see how that's that much different from, say ITNOG, ANTR and other longer DT songs. I also don't really see the point of mentioning that fact, to be honest.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback.
There's no call for this.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Pirate

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I like Systematic Chaos but I also really dislike it. Its got some of the newer prog DT songs akin to Octavarium where the band breaks away from the recent standard fare and rediscovers their roots. I really like these songs (ITPOE and to a lesser extent, TMOLS). It's also got some of the only DT songs that I actively avoid (Constant Motion, POW) and while they are pretty cool tracks, they get old quick.

Offline ariich

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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.

Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.

Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
I think that structurally, it is very similar to Endless Sacrifice, which is a notorious example.  However, I think it does what it does much better than ES, and I actually like the buildup to the instrumental section - it doesn't just start out of nowhere.

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Offline Dr. DTVT

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Just reading this thread makes me like SC less.
     

Offline orcus116

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Even if you hate the album, I don't see how you can't like The Ministry of Lost Souls. One of DT's best songs period, in my opinion. At the very least, it's certainly the best track on the album.

It just drags and the music itself just doesn't do it for me. Like Kev keeps bringing up, it's the longest 15 minutes they've ever recorded.

Offline Ultimetalhead

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Over the course of about a year, I will say it's average. It's not worse than WDADU for example.

Saying an album is average for DT is saying it's still better than a lot of music to me, though there are a lot of albums by other bands that slay SC.
Exactly.
Orion....that's the one with a bunch of power chords and boringly harsh vocals, isn't it?
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Offline ariich

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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.

Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
I think that structurally, it is very similar to Endless Sacrifice, which is a notorious example.  However, I think it does what it does much better than ES, and I actually like the buildup to the instrumental section - it doesn't just start out of nowhere.
Indeed, ES is generally a very inconsistent and disjointed song, even by DT standards.

Offline KevShmev

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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback.
There's no call for this.

There is never a call to switch to Nickelback. :lol 

Offline robwebster

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If you think the instrumental section is out of nowhere, I think it's seriously time to switch to Nickelback.
Hahahahaha! Fantastic. This is my favourite putdown in weeks.

Offline Slain

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I voted "Average"

I like the songs, but for DT it's just an average album.

In the Presence of Enemies 8.5/10 - If the second part was much better than the first I'd definitley have to rate it higher, but this is a pretty good song (even though most of the time I just listen to pt.1)

Forsaken 5/10 - Decent radio friendly song that I don't really listen to much, they have better slower ballads that I'd rather listen to. This is one of the first songs that comes up when you search "Dream Theater" in youtube, and strangely some people know them for it.I'll always remember someone saying "Oh yeah, Dream Theater... don't they write about Vampires and stuff?"  :( Damn you, Forsaken video. It's a good thing Dream Theater isn't Muse, or this song would have been in Twilight.

Constant Motion 6.5/10 - Pretty cool metal song that you can't listen to too much but I enjoy it from time to time. The drumming is completely awesome, especially during the solo. When I first got into DT I listened to this song a lot :P

The Dark Eternal Night 6/10 - I feel pretty much the same about this song as I do about Constant Motion, except it's longer and just not as strong (chorus wise, verses...)

Repentance 6/10 - This is a song I rarely listen to (Actually I've honestly only listened to it in its entirety maybe 2-3 times) but It's a great part of the 12 Step Suite, and very different for DT, I like it much more now than I did 2 years ago.

Prophets of War 7/10 -Yes. I enjoy PoW, and I've seen live versions, it's better live. A great Labrie vocal performance (And portnoys awesome backing vocals), and shows what I love about Dream Theater, even though everything doesn't work (At least for me, portnoys speaking section) it still shows them trying something eccentric and different than their other stuff.

Ministry of Lost Souls 7.5/10 - Not as good as ITPoE, but still good. The instrumental section (at least I think) is pretty cool, done much better than Endless Sacrifice for example. It's a pretty standard DT song for the most part, and I don't listen to it much.

Anyways, I decided to do a little review, just my opinions on the songs

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Offline Darkes7

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Darkes, you're going a bit overboard. I agree with you in that I think the flow into the instrumental section in TMOLS is excellent and the way it transitions back into the original theme at the end is wonderful, but I can still understand that others might find it a little unfitting.

Then again, it's something that has always been a big part of DT's music, so the one thing I don't really get is why people seem to think it's so much worse than any of their other output that does the same thing.
It's one thing if someone finds it "a little unfitting" and it's another if someone claims it's "out of nowhere" at the same time being hypocritical to the point where several other DT songs with far worse flow into the instrumental section are perfectly ok. But well, they're not on Systematic Chaos.

[space for another "lolz darkes you're seeing a conspiracy" post below]

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Alright, Blob. We know it's you. Your little trickery where you hate I&W instead of Awake had us for a little bit but the cat's out of the bag now.

Offline BRGM

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Oh come TMOLS have one of their coolest and most unexpected Instrumental sections ever and a nice unison and one of JPS best ending solos. It's alot better than their older stuff, like Scarred or LTL or Voices, for me SC is one of their best albums

Offline orcus116

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What do people see in that ending solo? Its just repetitive.

Offline Zook

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« Reply #129 on: May 23, 2010, 03:42:02 PM »
^ Was just about to ask that same question.

Offline Marvellous G

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I objectively see all the complaints about the ending solo, but there's just something epic (for lack of a less overused internet word) about it that manages to even appeal to the cynical part of me that still thinks it's 'canned' emotion and 'canned' epicness. Which it most likely is, but I still love it for some reason.

Online antigoon

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I have no problem with it, but I don't see what's so special about it either.

Offline Darkes7

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Ok, now I admit I'm speechless.

Offline Adami

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Ok, now I admit I'm speechless.

Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Alright, Blob. We know it's you. Your little trickery where you hate I&W instead of Awake had us for a little bit but the cat's out of the bag now.
:lol

Ok, now I admit I'm speechless.

Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
No, he isn't.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Jamesman42

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I'm listening to SC right now, and it's a bit better than I remember. I think knowing the what the lyrics are about actually turn me away. The music and vocals are great.

Hmm, it never really hit me that DT really needs a lyric fix (although BC&SL is an obvious improvement). Maybe my fanboyism is wearing off a tad bit.

Offline BRGM

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TMOLS might not be complicated solo, but it's so beautiful and I get chills every time I listen to it

Offline Sigz

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I haven't listened to SC in a while, but going through the songs:

ITPOE 1: Awesome.
Forsaken: Pretty damn good.
Constant Motion: Solid, but nothing special.
TDEN: meh.
Repentance: Some great parts, but it draaaggss
PoW: Fun song.
TMOLS: Basically goes Awesome-Ugh-Awesome
ITPOE 2: meh.


It's strange that on a song by song basis like this I'd say it's a somewhat solid album, but that I still never find myself wanting to listen to it. I guess it suffers from Lightbulb Sun syndrome.
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Offline tri.ad

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Are you just not good at the whole "people disagreeing with you" thing?
No, he isn't.

You've really zeroed in on Darkes, haven't you? Just an observation I'm making.
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Offline AcidLameLTE

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I guess it suffers from Lightbulb Sun syndrome.
What? SC is far from Dream Theater's best album.