Author Topic: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany  (Read 17519 times)

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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2012, 11:43:19 AM »
You can't force western ideals and values on every society you deem fit.

But, equally, a non-western group in a western nation has no right to think their own law supersedes the law of the land.  The "western philosophy" is very liberal; but because of its nature; cannot accept practices that impinge on its fundamentals of liberty.  It would be self-destructive.

A decision by the western world is not void of reason and not implusive; its conclusion is steeped in history of liberal philosophies.  Banning circumcision or deciding to ban Burkas are ok because they are counter-productive to our ever growing liberal society.  If the person doesn't agree then they should not be living in the west. 

Its hypocritical to cherish liberal philosophies when it benefits oneself, but denounce it when it doesn't.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2012, 02:23:43 PM »
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

If you guys don't want to do it, then don't do it. But don't tell a religion who has done it for 3,000 years to stop doing it because you don't like it.
I didn't mind it for the longest time. Until I learned why it's unhealthy. Now I'm opposed. Just because a religion does it doesn't change the fact it's a screwed up thing to do. I am circumcised, and I don't really mind much I'll admit, but it serves it's purpose.

Offline Sigz

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2012, 02:38:14 PM »
Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2012, 06:12:49 PM »
Mutilating someone against their will is bad. This is good. Foreskin is healthy for you.

If you guys don't want to do it, then don't do it. But don't tell a religion who has done it for 3,000 years to stop doing it because you don't like it.
I didn't mind it for the longest time. Until I learned why it's unhealthy. Now I'm opposed. Just because a religion does it doesn't change the fact it's a screwed up thing to do. I am circumcised, and I don't really mind much I'll admit, but it serves it's purpose.

Then don't get your son circumcised. I seriously don't understand why you guys can't just choose not to do it, and instead want to force everyone else to have to follow your ideas of what is right. It's really no different than banning porn or premarital sex or even unprotected sex. The only reason you guys don't care is because it doesn't apply to you. But it applies to a lot of people including myself (not to mention Superdude and whatever other Jews are here). Yet you seem perfectly cool telling any entire culture they're not allowed to do something because you personally don't like it.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2012, 07:08:34 PM »
My circumcised dick is just fine, thank you very much.

Calling it mutilation is such a huge fucking stretch it boggles my mind. and it pisses me off because it implies that my religion 'butchers' our young against their will.


Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2012, 07:27:04 PM »
and it pisses me off because it implies that my religion 'butchers' our young against their will.

Regardless of your opinions on whether circumcision is "butchering", it is being done against the will of the children, and I think that's what's offending those who are against it.

It's really no different than banning porn or premarital sex or even unprotected sex.

Except it is!  I don't even know how you could compare sex between two consenting adults to sawing away at the genitals of infants. 

And keep in mind that all kinds of sex ARE, in fact, banned - for people who aren't old enough to consent to it.

EDIT:  By the way, Adami, do understand that I'm not attacking you or your people.  That is incredibly far from being my intention.  I'm only here to discuss this matter, and I do have some relatively strong -- and, in my opinion, quite well-argued -- opinions about the subject.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2012, 07:39:09 PM by theseoafs »

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2012, 07:41:48 PM »
I'm not arguing that anyone should like circumcision or that you guys should do it, I'm only arguing against preventing my people from doing it simply because you don't like it.
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Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2012, 07:49:46 PM »
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Then don't get your son circumcised. I seriously don't understand why you guys can't just choose not to do it
The point is that no one chooses whether to be circumcised or not, if that circumcision occurs in infancy. If "it" is being circumcised as an infant, then no one can choose whether to do it or not. The parents are choosing for the child. So the usual argument of "Don't do it if you don't want to, but don't try to ban other people from doing it" that applies whenever people try to outlaw something harmless just to impose their views on others (e.g. porn, premarital sex etc.) doesn't quite suffice, since the real issue is the fact that the person involved has no choice in the matter, and that argument doesn't address that. The thing that people want to do involves permanently altering someone else's body without them having any say in it, which makes it a different beast to watching porn or homosexual sex or other things like that.

I have no real stake in this - circumcision is a complete non-issue as far as I'm concerned since I don't think it's prevalent here at all. I don't really know if anyone around here is circumcised since I don't see a whole lot of penises, but I've never heard it mentioned and I don't imagine that the idea of whether I should circumcise any son of mine would even enter my head. And everyone here seems happy enough with whichever one they ended up with, so we can hardly argue it's a problem. I just think that it's not quite as simple an issue as "If you don't want it, don't do it."

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2012, 07:59:07 PM »
^This is exactly correct.  The issue, Adami, is not that a group of people is doing something I don't like and should therefore be stopped.  People do things I wouldn't necessarily do myself all the time, like eating guacamole and having sex with men.  If you enjoy guacamole and man-sex, good for you!  You enjoy two more things than I do.

The issue is that parents are making permanent decisions about their children's bodies without the children's consent.  It's the ethics of deciding for your son that he will have no foreskin that is being debated here.  (Not to mention, of course, that the procedure provides no health benefits to speak of and that complications are inherently very serious given the region being operated on.)

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2012, 08:00:42 PM »
The concept of maximum individual freedom isn't valued in every culture as it is in the west. And the jewish children aren't complaining. The only people who are throwing a fit are ones who's people won't be really affected by the ban.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2012, 08:05:40 PM »
in case nobody has noticed, parents make ALL decisions for their children until they're legal adults.

Especially as it concerns medicine. But nobody is asking the child if they want their tonsils removed, or to be enrolled in therapy programs, or a whole host of other things.

Ban those too.


BTW, phrases like "sawing off the genitals of" makes it seem A WHOLE FUCKING LOT WORSE than it actually is.

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #116 on: July 11, 2012, 08:09:04 PM »
Especially as it concerns medicine. But nobody is asking the child if they want their tonsils removed, or to be enrolled in therapy programs, or a whole host of other things.

There are, at times, actual medical advantages to removing tonsils or being enrolled in therapy programs, not to mention that these things don't affect your body's permanent aesthetic.

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #117 on: July 11, 2012, 08:11:34 PM »
Stop talking like there's something inherently WRONG with being circumcised. Myself, and a ton of other people have zero problems, functionally or aesthetically, with their dick.

Offline kingshmegland

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2012, 08:14:12 PM »
Stop talking like there's something inherently WRONG with being circumcised. Myself, and a ton of other people have zero problems, functionally or aesthetically, with their dick.

Mines shaved and and it's still working.  I beat it everyday.

Seriously.  Not much you can do.  It's up to your parents and their beliefs.  Can't wait till someone sues their parents for their foreskin back.  Surprised it hasn't happened yet.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2012, 08:14:33 PM »
Especially as it concerns medicine. But nobody is asking the child if they want their tonsils removed, or to be enrolled in therapy programs, or a whole host of other things.

There are, at times, actual medical advantages to removing tonsils or being enrolled in therapy programs, not to mention that these things don't affect your body's permanent aesthetic.

And doing what is medically best for your child is a value. Just like assuring our sons are circumcised in a specific way is our value.  You may not share our values but you have no right to deem them inferior to yours. If enough jewish men decide they hate circumcision they can deal with it within our culture. But it is NOT your place to say what nother group of people do simply because you have a different set of values.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #120 on: July 11, 2012, 08:15:55 PM »
Stop talking like there's something inherently WRONG with being circumcised.

I don't know how I did that.  I said that circumcision provided no actual medical advantages and that it fundamentally changes your body's permanent aesthetic, which are pretty widely documented facts.

Regardless, I'm stepping out of this thread, because it has occurred to me that no one in here actually wants to have a discussion.  Good day.

Offline Adami

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #121 on: July 11, 2012, 08:19:36 PM »
I'm out too because my culture and our values have essentially been deemed insignificant and inferior to popular wester morals.  The amount of intolerence in this thread is astounding. In fact I'm just leaving DTF for a while. Ill be back when I can hopefully see this place as what it is and not just the ignorance in this thread. Tah.
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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #122 on: July 11, 2012, 08:30:06 PM »
I'm not an expert on Judaism by any means, but I remember Rabbi Shmuley saying on Penn & Teller Bullshit that it's not necessary for Jews. It's not necessary for Muslims either. In fact, the Quran is emphatic that man is physically perfect and made in God's image. I can understand people wanting to preserve the practice for its cultural significance though. Banning it will just inflame religious minorities and create a black market, which is a scary thought.

OT, but here's an interesting factoid I learned today: the Dogon people of Mali believe all humans are born hermaphroditic and circumcision assigns them to their proper gender.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #123 on: July 12, 2012, 03:05:05 AM »
Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Offline Odysseus

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #124 on: July 12, 2012, 04:05:26 AM »
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #125 on: July 12, 2012, 06:46:08 AM »
Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.

Offline Implode

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #126 on: July 12, 2012, 07:02:28 AM »
I've never had any bacteria infections, nor have I heard of anyone having those. But then again, I'm sure people wouldn't talk about it.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #127 on: July 12, 2012, 03:27:12 PM »
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #128 on: July 12, 2012, 03:28:28 PM »
For what reason has this become such a contentious issue?

If a pagan community cut their kids' earlobes off as a sign of their religious affiliation, you can bet your ass that there would be mucho waving of arms, gnashing of teeth, and accusations of child-abuse, and reasonably so.  However, we're supposed to walk away and say nothing when a similar procedure is performed in the name of God, Yahweh, Allah etc...
Agreed. I was actually thinking of making the exact same point, earlobes and all, but you beat me to it. :lol

Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #129 on: July 12, 2012, 04:04:28 PM »
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

The WHO released a report that circumcision or lack thereof confers no medical advantage.

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Offline Sigz

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #130 on: July 12, 2012, 04:10:54 PM »
Yeah, I have no idea where you're getting that from LieLow. Every piece of evidence I have seen has stated that either there's no significant difference in infection risk or that the risk of infection is higher in uncircumcised penises.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #131 on: July 12, 2012, 04:15:47 PM »
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

The WHO released a report that circumcision or lack thereof confers no medical advantage.

rumborak

Yeah, but both Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend later recanted, so I don't think that means anything.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #132 on: July 12, 2012, 04:23:31 PM »
Now there's a reference I don't get at all :lol

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Offline Sigz

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #133 on: July 12, 2012, 04:26:30 PM »
Fun fact: The song 'Cut My Hair' was originally not about Townsend's hair.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #134 on: July 12, 2012, 04:30:11 PM »
Yeah, I have no idea where you're getting that from LieLow. Every piece of evidence I have seen has stated that either there's no significant difference in infection risk or that the risk of infection is higher in uncircumcised penises.
Nah, I've seen higher in circumcised, not uncircumcised. But I'm assuming the typo. The stuff I've seen shows that circumcised penises have much more bacteria accumulation and thus, the risks. I watched a pretty informative (albeit pretty gross) video on it not long ago, although I'm not sure where to find it now.

Offline pogoowner

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #135 on: July 12, 2012, 04:32:32 PM »
^Yeah, it increases the risk of UTI too.

Until I learned why it's unhealthy.

Huh?
Foreskin protects against bacterial infections. Also, circumcisions have gone wrong and destroyed the penises of some, but I'm more so focused on the increased chance in bacterial infections.

Ever hear of cleaning your junk?

Once again, no problems whatsoever with my penis. Ever.


This is ridiculous.
Good for you. I don't have problems either. You're not helping your case. You're just assuming because you don't know people with the problems, no one will ever have them.

The WHO released a report that circumcision or lack thereof confers no medical advantage.

rumborak

Yeah, but both Roger Daltrey and Pete Townshend later recanted, so I don't think that means anything.
:rollin

Offline Sigz

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #136 on: July 12, 2012, 04:35:04 PM »
Yeah, I have no idea where you're getting that from LieLow. Every piece of evidence I have seen has stated that either there's no significant difference in infection risk or that the risk of infection is higher in uncircumcised penises.
Nah, I've seen higher in circumcised, not uncircumcised. But I'm assuming the typo. The stuff I've seen shows that circumcised penises have much more bacteria accumulation and thus, the risks. I watched a pretty informative (albeit pretty gross) video on it not long ago, although I'm not sure where to find it now.

Yeah, no idea where you've heard that.


The American Academy of Pediatrics observes “Circumcision has been suggested as an effective method of maintaining penile hygiene since the time of the Egyptian dynasties, but there is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimal penile hygiene.”

By 8 years, circumcised children had a rate of 11.1 problems per 100 children, and uncircumcised children had a rate of 18.8 per 100. The majority of these problems were for penile inflammation including balanitis, meatitis, and inflammation of the prepuce. However, the relationship between risks of penile problems and circumcision status varied with the child's age. During infancy, circumcised children had a significantly higher risk of problems than uncircumcised children, but after infancy the rate of penile problems was significantly higher among the uncircumcised. These associations were not changed when the results were adjusted statistically for the effects of a series of potentially confounding social and perinatal factors.[176]

Data on 402 908 children were identified from 12 studies (one randomised controlled trial, four cohort studies, and seven case–control studies). Circumcision was associated with a significantly reduced risk of UTI (OR = 0.13; 95% CI, 0.08 to 0.20; p<0.001) with the same odds ratio (0.13) for all three types of study design.
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Offline LieLowTheWantedMan

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #137 on: July 12, 2012, 04:54:17 PM »
Ohh pfft, guess I had my UTI one mixed up. :lol My bad. Anyways, I found the video I watched. It's long, gross, and NSFW. But it's informative.

Here NSFW

Offline rumborak

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #138 on: July 12, 2012, 04:58:45 PM »
Let me rant here about the usage of "significant" in those quotes. You can have a negligible effect that's statistically significant. Don't use the word "significant", it suggests otherwise.

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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Circumcision of young boys banned in Cologne, Germany
« Reply #139 on: July 12, 2012, 05:33:32 PM »
The only real objection I see in this thread is that of a historical nature. Everyone for circumcision seems to want to have it stay legal for historical cultural/religious reason and then try to back it up with claims of health benefits. Oddly enough not the health benefits before. Those against it are for reasons of freewill and not altering a non-consenting person.

Since everyone in this thread can easily point to a study or article showing there position to be the correct one. I can easily settle this.. Reasoned freewill trumps culture and superstition at all times. If your culture/religion harms another human without their consent. A reasoned society should do away with it.