The P/R-side Chat Thread v.2

[Scheavo]

Cops being cops

The first of these guys was acquitted yesterday.  Not a big deal realistically, since he only faced a year in jail, but on principle it's pretty insulting.

Insulting? That's fucking worse than Rodney King. Each and every one of those cops should be fired, and more than one of them should be in jail for aggravated assault. Fucking bullshit that we even come close to accepting anything like this.

[El Barto]

Four of them were already fired, and the mayor's pretty pissed off about the acquittal. 

The important thing that everybody needs to keep in mind is that this happens a lot, and has been happening for decades.  The only reason this is getting resolved somewhat reasonably is because a community activist got the video from a mini-warehouse and made it public. 

And as somebody who's speech-101 final presentation was a defense of the cops who beat Rodney King's stupid ass, yeah, I agree this is obviously worse.

[Scheavo]

Four of them were already fired, and the mayor's pretty pissed off about the acquittal. 

Good, but not good enough.

The important thing that everybody needs to keep in mind is that this happens a lot, and has been happening for decades.  The only reason this is getting resolved somewhat reasonably is because a community activist got the video from a mini-warehouse and made it public. 

I really don't see how it happening a lot makes it more acceptable or more palatable. It also means that when we do have video proof of brutality like this, that we should fucking give those cops the maximum penalty applicable under the law. Creating a culture of permissiveness, which I'd say we have by letting so many cops off the hook, is going to make the situation worse.

And as somebody who's speech-101 final presentation was a defense of the cops who beat Rodney King's stupid ass, yeah, I agree this is obviously worse.

You defended the cops who beat up Rodney King? O_o

[El Barto]

Four of them were already fired, and the mayor's pretty pissed off about the acquittal. 

Good, but not good enough.

The important thing that everybody needs to keep in mind is that this happens a lot, and has been happening for decades.  The only reason this is getting resolved somewhat reasonably is because a community activist got the video from a mini-warehouse and made it public. 

I really don't see how it happening a lot makes it more acceptable or more palatable. It also means that when we do have video proof of brutality like this, that we should fucking give those cops the maximum penalty applicable under the law. Creating a culture of permissiveness, which I'd say we have by letting so many cops off the hook, is going to make the situation worse.

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that frequency makes it more palatable.  My point was largely the same as yours.  People have been complaining for decades about how fucked up the cops are, and plenty of people just don't buy it.  We're now seeing more and more examples of it, which make it kind of hard to ignore the allegations from the past.  Personally, I'm hoping we create an environment where this behavior isn't acceptable, and with each instance of it being made a media circus, we should be getting a wee bit closer.

You defended the cops who beat up Rodney King? O_o

Strangely, there are plenty of instances where I defend aggressive police behavior, and this was one of them.  Quite frankly, a lot of the Monday Morning Quarterbacks just don't know what the fuck they're talking about.  King was violent and combative until the end.  The point of my presentation was that they probably would have been justified in shooting his dumb ass.  Rather than doing that they worked their way up the use of force continuum, and I think acted quite reasonably.  Remember that not everybody falls to the ground in a lump when they get tazered; hell, one of our favorite guitarists here can attest to that little fact  .  King got tazered and reacted violently, which is one of the risks of using the thing.  Another interesting thing that the MMQB's overlook is that the beating was halted fairly quickly, and King continued to resist resulting in them continuing beating. 

BTW, I got an A on the presentation and made it safely to my car afterward.   

[Super Dude]

To all those who yearn for "the good ole days" before our country went insane:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but I actually do prefer an era where 50 kids get blown up and people shrug, say that's a shame, and then get on with their lives.  It seems to me like people back then didn't have a sense that they're entitled to live to old age.  Since people dying young nowadays is totally unacceptable in any way, every incident like this requires all the rest of us to change the way we live.

Oh, yeah, that wasn't the point I was trying to make at all. I was just thinking about the way people react to violent tragedies today, how people say, "How could anyone do such a thing? People never did things like this [insert number of years ago]!" It's complete bullcrap, people were just as crazy in the days of yore as today.

[El Barto]

https://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/arizona_ken_bennett_obama_birth_certificate_birther.php

If I'm ever appointed president, the first thing I'm going to do is initiate proceedings to give Arizona back to the Mexicans.  The rest of us really shouldn't have to be associated with these nimrods.

What I'd really like to see is Obama issue a one word statement:  So?  There is no possibility of him getting their electoral votes, so what difference does it make?  It would be cool to see their madman looking secretary of state be known as the guy who disenfranchised his entire electorate, though. n

[Super Dude]

Oh God, that face. 

[Progmetty]

Quick question: Does any official source announce the results of American presidential elections for Americans abroad if the local elections were not done yet? If not; does it leak?

[El Barto]

Quick question: Does any official source announce the results of American presidential elections for Americans abroad if the local elections were not done yet? If not; does it leak?

If I understand what you're asking, no they don't.  I think what you're referring to are absentee ballots.  The results don't get leaked because they don't get counted until the day of the election.

[Progmetty]

I see, thanks man. That sounds like sane way to do it.

[chknptpie]

  I hate my state

[igotrhythm]

In the Hindu religion, the Supreme Being Shiva came to earth in the form of a cow. For this reason it is considered a cardinal sin to eat beef or cause the death of a cow in Hinduism--one of the worst sins a person can commit. Traffic regularly comes to a dead stop in Indian cities when a cow crosses the road. You would think it would be a given that it would be illegal to eat beef in India, 80% of the population of which is Hindu--more than the Christian population of the United States. You would be wrong. India is a free society, and therefore they don't legislate based on religion--therefore if you're a Christian or Muslim in India, you can eat all the beef you want. If only the United States were as free a country as India...

[eric42434224]

India is not immune from religions discrimination issues.

[The Dark Master]

https://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/arizona_ken_bennett_obama_birth_certificate_birther.php

If I'm ever appointed president, the first thing I'm going to do is initiate proceedings to give Arizona back to the Mexicans.  The rest of us really shouldn't have to be associated with these nimrods.

What I'd really like to see is Obama issue a one word statement:  So?  There is no possibility of him getting their electoral votes, so what difference does it make?  It would be cool to see their madman looking secretary of state be known as the guy who disenfranchised his entire electorate, though. n

Is this even going to matter at all?  I thought AZ was already pretty much a guaranteed win for Mittens just because of all the birther crazies in the first place.  If this goes through, all it is really doing is confirming the status quo in Arizona, which really is nothing surprising anyways.




Oh yes, and LOL @ dat face   

[El Barto]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/a-users-guide-to-smoking-pot-with-barack-obama

The first thing I've seen about the guy that suggests I might actually have gotten along with him at some point.  Shame he turned into such a hypocritical shitbag.

And I'd just like to say that the roof hit picture is incredible.  Try as we might, we were never able to get anything close to that. 

[Scheavo]

I gotta say, his position on pot is certainly one I horribly disagree, but I'm not willing to dislike someone for being pragmatic. Putting health care and economic reform before legalizing weed seems fairly reasonable to me, especially considering the current congress.

It comes down to personality for me as much as his positions. Hes not a legislator, even though that's how the media makes Presidents run for the office.

[El Barto]

I gotta say, his position on pot is certainly one I horribly disagree, but I'm not willing to dislike someone for being pragmatic. Putting health care and economic reform before legalizing weed seems fairly reasonable to me, especially considering the current congress.

It comes down to personality for me as much as his positions. Hes not a legislator, even though that's how the media makes Presidents run for the office.

Unquestionably true.  Also not really the point in this matter.  I don't care if he attempts to decriminalize it or not.  I care a great deal that he's the most actively anti-pot president we've had since Nixon. 

[Scheavo]

The pot market has also gone crazy. He said he'd let states decide, but we both know the huge medical industries also transport across state lines, and into states where its illegal. More pot being grown and transported makes for more arrests, and more raids - especially when its a business with an address.

[El Barto]

A: he isn't letting the states decide.  It's not like the paradigm became different in 2008, either. 

B: while popularity has probably increased, and quality certainly has, I don't think the market has changed much at all.  I doubt I have to tell you how easy it is to manufacture KB.  It's not like acid where it has to be made in a few locations and distributed across the country.  Everybody can grow fine quality bud, and there's really not much of a benefit to interstate commerce.  Lets also keep in mind that in places where it's legal, like Cali or Colorado, there's no benefit to taking their expensive, retail weed and shipping it elsewhere. 

Where there is distribution out of the states is going to be cheap Mexican bud, and that hasn't changed in 50 years, except that there's probably few people interested in it. 

This doesn't really matter, though, as it's strictly California and Colorado that he's cracking down on, and has made it fairly clear.  They're hitting specific targets to put a chilling effect on the whole affair.  These targets tend to be lawful dispensaries, operated by notable activists. 

[Scheavo]

Its not just California and Colorado, he hit Montana too, and every charge relates to interstate trafficking.

Also, when I lived in NM, there was tons of stuff from Cali and Colorado, more than in state. Ya, anyone can grow it, but it was at least thought to be less risky to do it in a state where its quasi-legal. If the local cops catch you, they don't have jurisdiction.

Plus, people want "medical," cause they're silly enough to think its massively superior.

[El Barto]

DEA enforcement in Montana doesn't bother me (at least no more than my obvious dislike of the war on drugs).  The concern here is the bullshit assurance that he'd let California deal with California's marijuana situation.  And I'm not aware of any interstate aspect to raiding dispensaries and training facilities.  Why would a legal shop owner risk his livelihood selling illegally when he's doing well above board?  Holder's going after intermediate size dispensaries that don't seem to be connected to any exporting.

As for NM, two points come to mind.  Discerning dopers won't give a shit if it's medical grade pot from Cali or Colorado; that's what you tell to the poseurs.  Somebody offers me dope from Cali or Amsterdam and I'm gonna laugh at them for automatically assuming it's superior to what I'm already smoking.  That makes me wonder if it actually was imported, or if it's salesmanship.  The other thing is that even if they were transporting it, which seems pretty foolish to me, that doesn't necessarily make it related to the state's legal interest in medicinal dope.  I suspect that dopers were moving around grass long before either of those states legitimized their stoners.  By the way, I'd bet money that most of the non-Mexican dope in NM is either homegrown or from Texas, where the laws are more favorable than Cali or Colorado. 

Rolling Stone is the latest to publish a story on what's going on.  Here's the section dealing with some examples of legitimate operations getting wiped out by swat teams and bogus criminal threats:

Since the federal crackdown began last year, the DEA has raided dozens of medical-cannabis dispensaries from Michigan to Montana. Haag, the U.S. attorney for Northern California, claims the federal action is necessary because the state's legalized pot dispensaries have been "hijacked by profiteers" who are nothing more than criminals.

It's true that California has no shortage of illegal pot dealers. Nonmedical marijuana is the state's largest cash crop, raking in an estimated $14 billion a year. And demand is growing, in part because former governor Arnold Schwarzenegger thwarted a ballot measure aimed at full legalization in 2010 by removing criminal penalties for possession of up to an ounce of pot. But instead of focusing limited federal resources on off-the-grid growers in places like Humboldt County, who are often armed and violent, Haag targeted Matthew Cohen, a medical-marijuana farmer in Mendocino who was growing 99 plants under the direct supervision of the county sheriff. As part of a pioneering collaboration with local law enforcement, Cohen marked each of his plants with county-supplied tags, had his secured facility inspected and distributed the mari­juana he grew directly to patients in his nonprofit collective.

Cohen appeared to be precisely the kind of caregiver that the Ogden memo advised should be given safe harbor for operating in "clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state law." But last October, DEA agents stormed Cohen's farm in the middle of the night and cut down his crop. Sheriff Tom Allman, who learned of the raid on his turf only an hour before it was executed, was outraged. "Matt Cohen was not in violation of any state or local ordinances when federal agents arrived at his location," Allman says. In January, Haag took the fight to the next level, threatening county officials like Allman with federal sanctions. Three weeks later, county supervisors voted to abandon the program to license and monitor Mendocino's legal growers. "This is a huge step backward," says Allman.

Haag's treatment of urban dispensaries has been equally ham-handed. She recently shuttered one of the oldest dispensaries in the state, a nonprofit that serves a high percentage of female patients in Marin County, which has the nation's highest rate of breast cancer. She has threatened to seize the properties that landlords rent to legal pot dispensaries. And in San Francisco, she targeted Divinity Tree, a cooperative run by a quadriplegic who himself relies on prescribed cannabis for relief from near-constant muscle spasms. At a time of high unemployment and huge budget deficits, the move killed more than a dozen jobs and deprived the state of $180,000 in annual tax revenue. In San Diego alone, the feds have shut down nearly two-thirds of the county's dispensaries. Statewide, the United Food and Commercial Workers Union estimates, the federal crackdown has destroyed some 2,500 jobs in California. It also sent street prices soaring by at least 20 percent, putting more money in the hands of actual criminals.

In addition, the federal war on medical marijuana has locked pot dispensaries out of the banking system – especially in Colorado, home to the nation's second-largest market for medicinal cannabis. Top banks – including Chase, Wells Fargo and Bank of America – are refusing to do business with state-licensed dispensaries, for fear of federal prosecution for money-laundering and other federal drug crimes. In a House hearing in December, Rep. Jared Polis of Colorado warned Attorney General Holder that strong-arming banks will actually raise the likelihood of crime. If pot dispensaries have to work outside the normal financial system, Polis told Holder, "it makes the industry harder for the state to track, to tax, to regulate them, and in fact makes it prone to robberies, because it becomes a cash business."

The IRS has also joined in the administration's assault on pot dispensaries, seeking to deny them standard tax deductions enjoyed by all other businesses. Invoking an obscure provision of the tax code meant to trip up drug kingpins, the IRS now maintains that pot dispensaries can deduct only one expense – ironically, the cost of the marijuana itself. All other normal costs of doing business – including employee salaries and benefits, rent, equipment, electricity and water – have been denied.

The agency has used the provision to go after Harborside Health Center, one of the largest and most respected providers of medical cannabis in California. Its Oakland branch, serving 83,000 patients in conforming with state law, paid more than $1 million in city taxes last year – placing it in the top 10 percent of local businesses. "It's incredibly tightly run and very, very professional," says Nadelmann of the Drug Policy Alliance. "But it's also big – and it may be that big is bad as far as the feds are concerned." Slapped with an IRS bill for $2.5 million in back taxes, Harborside now faces bankruptcy. "It's profoundly inaccurate to characterize us as a 'drug-trafficking' organization," says Harborside president Steve DeAngelo. "We are a nonprofit community-service organization that helps sick and suffering people get the medicine they need to be well. This is not an attempt to tax us – it's an attempt to tax us out of existence."

Read more: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/obamas-war-on-pot-20120216#ixzz1w1hYb2aD

The nifty part is that not only is he a lying asshole, to the extent that he's actually condoning these operations, he's a fucking idiot.  He's deliberately targeting the legitimate entities, and greatly empowering the criminal element.  I gather that's his intention, actually.  Make the California experiment the biggest disaster it can, so it can turn around and say "see, we told you it would be a disaster!"  Of course the effect is the same as the rest of the war on drugs.  Propping up criminals and abusing citizens.

[Scheavo]

I didn't read Obama's name anywhere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the man has bigger fish to fry, and US Attorneys act somewhat independently.

They're casting way too big of a net, because its not the dispensaries, but the producers for those dispensaries, who are often third party. It is an actual problem, and I know this because I knew more than one person who would run the stuff from Cali. They were idiots, but its what they were doing. Same goes for Colorado.

Besides, do you think a Republican president would be better? The President has no lasting authority on the matter, so its not a real solution to the problem. Blame Congress for continuing the prohibition.

[El Barto]

I think a Republican president was better.  Ashcroft's administration made token efforts, pretty much keeping things honest.  Holder's administration is making a concerted effort to destroy medicinal marijuana in every state it exists.  Insofar as marijuana interests go, I suspect everybody would prefer to have Dumbass back. 

And the two people most responsible for this are the AG and the head of the DEA.  One's a cabinet level position and both serve at the president's pleasure.  Furthermore, I'm pretty confident that on at least one occasion, the topic of how to deal with medical marijuana in California was discussed with him.  It's not like strangers are acting on their own accord in defiance of his wishes. 

[Scheavo]

No, but there is bureaucratic inertia.

Dumbass, was well, dumbass. Ashcroft and Gonzales? didn't seem very good at their job. Since 2009, the industry grew a lot. Perhaps not in Cali, but def. in Colorado, Montana, New Mexico, and in other Western States. At least in Montana, its the conservatives who called on the Feds, and its the conservatives who have issues with the growing acceptance. Short of incompetence, I really don't see a conservative having a better position on this. I think I'd like incompetence in the DEA, but the AG?

I disagree with the actions, I just don't hate or blame Obama for the current state of affairs like you do. What bothers me more about Obamas policies relate to "national security" and our presence in Afghanistan. There, Obama has actual authority.

[Super Dude]

An entertaining Cracked article that I found to be surprisingly convincing: https://www.cracked.com/article_19402_6-mind-blowing-ways-zombies-vampires-explain-america.html?wa_user1=4&wa_user2=Movies+%26+TV&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=recommended

[Tick]

[El Barto]

Meh.  Not only is the logic flawed, and the targets misplaced (hippie girl there doesn't give a shit about soda bans), but it's just as applicable to the right:


Abortion:  It's a defenseless child and we have to protect it from harm!

Soda:  If I want to raise a fat fuck diabetic toddler, that's none of your business!

[Super Dude]

Calling it a comparison between apples and oranges would be a massive understatement.

[Tick]

Whatever. I found it amusing.

[Tanatra]

Haha, I remember when this meme was all over Facebook. My favorite one was "Concerned about hormones in milk - Takes acid from strangers."

Someone also did this photo caption meme with young Republicans, using a picture of a college-age kid in a business suit with a douchebag smile on his face.  The only one that stuck out in my mind was particularly true: "Loves wars - Doesn't enlist."

[Super Dude]

Well actually that's a photo of the Wash U (or maybe George Washington U, I can't remember) college Republican club president.

My favorite of him:

https://www.quickmeme.com/meme/35k58d/

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

My mother, who loves to post Obama bashing shit to her Facebook page, made me think about something today.  There are a lot of people I know, my mother included, who never in their life have shown me one OUNCE of interest in anything even remotely political.

Until a black man became President.

All of the sudden, people who didn't give a damn about politics have this newfound interest in it.

Strange how that works...

[El Barto]

Retaliatory arrest?  Really?
Supreme Court backs Secret Service arrest of man confronting Cheney

If there's probable cause to detain somebody, then arrest them.  If there's not, don't.  Seems really straight forward to me.  Now we seem to have a new element to factor in--retaliatory arrest.  Retaliatory implies that it was done for a reason outside legitimacy.  Seriously, WTF?

[Scheavo]

Retaliatory arrest?  Really?
Supreme Court backs Secret Service arrest of man confronting Cheney

If there's probable cause to detain somebody, then arrest them.  If there's not, don't.  Seems really straight forward to me.  Now we seem to have a new element to factor in--retaliatory arrest.  Retaliatory implies that it was done for a reason outside legitimacy.  Seriously, WTF?

Was hoping it was at least a 5-4 decision, then I read it was unanimous.

Once again, the Supreme Court coming to a decision that seems to run smack in the face of common sense. I'm all for letting the Secret Service have a little bit more power than would normally be the case, but there was obviously no threat from this person, and so any justification they could throw out there is gone.

[GuineaPig]

Today's the bicentennial of the start of the War of 1812.  What are the odds we get an AndyDT thread?