The imperfection of rock concerts

[Ħ]

One thing that's always interested me about rock shows is how much room there is for error. Most of my life has been spent listening to classical music where all the musicians basically have to be spot-on perfect, because mistakes stick out like a sore thumb. Why is it then that the same level of musical 'carefulness' and precision isn't expected of rock musicians?


And of course by "rock", I'm using that to also encompass pop artists, metal artists, whatever... I think you what I'm talking about.

[Cyclopssss]

I think rock/pop concerts are more for the 'experience', to feel the whole 'I'm here so let's party kind of vibe.

Having said that I remember always hating it when artists would suddenly change parts of songs I knew or leave out or sing other lyrics....Hated that!
It's not that I don't like improvisation, but it's just hard to let go of the original versions, I think...

[Ħ]

Or like, if an instrument is a little out of tune, or the vocalist is pitchy, it's not that bad for a rock show. But a single out of tune instrument in a classical setting will ruin everything.

[MasterShakezula]

Classical music and its performance is generally more 'formal', out of my lack of a better description, and tends to end up being taken more seriously, while popular music is generally more informal and could be described as 'casual'.  Thus, they are going to end up having rather different atmospheres at performances, with different audiences with different expectations of the act. 

Also, helps that at a popular music concert, the audience is going to be very loud throughout, covering up some imperfections, while the audience at a classical concert are bound to be mostly silent.  (With the exception of the occasional cell phone ring, of course)

[BlobVanDam]

Because a rock show has a different purpose. A classical performance is 100% about hearing the music exactly as it was intended to be played, with nothing unexpected or improvised.
A rock concert is as much about seeing the performance as hearing it. Hearing the music note for note is a smaller component of the live show than it is for classical music, and it's not an expectation that the sole purpose is to play it exactly as it is on the album. In fact, I prefer it not be exact, because to me the spontaneity and variation is the appeal. Otherwise I'd just listen to the CD.

This doesn't make either one worse, they're just entirely different things. If I went to see a classical performance and they sacrificed the musical performance for the sake of jumping around, it would be a bad performance. If I went to see a rock concert, and they sat in chairs and performed the music identical to the album with no regard for their presentation to the audience, it would be a bad performance.

[DebraKadabra]

I think rock/pop concerts are more for the 'experience', to feel the whole 'I'm here so let's party kind of vibe.

Having said that I remember always hating it when artists would suddenly change parts of songs I knew or leave out or sing other lyrics....Hated that!
It's not that I don't like improvisation, but it's just hard to let go of the original versions, I think...

I agree with you, but only to a certain point--I like some of the live variations done by certain bands more than the studio versions.  Floater is one example of this, Frank Zappa is another (I could go on, but I think two examples is plenty).

Then you have bands that sound better live than in the studio and vice versa.  IMO, when I go to the show I don't want them to be like Supertramp when Roger was still in the band and play every single note exactly how it sounds on the album.  I think there's a lot of beauty to be had in the imperfections.

[guitarrero]

What Blob said.

In the end it's all about the balance i guess... the balance between playing exactly and putting on a show. And a classical performance is one extreme (perfect playing, no "performance" at all) a Rock show sometimes is quite the opposite extreme (stage acting, show, not so perfect playing). So all in all i guess DT found a pretty good way in between and play incredible complicated stuff with almost "classical precision" but also put on some show and interact with the audience. I like!

[Kotowboy]

Because sometimes it's nice to hear professional musicians make mistakes. It's part of the fun and hearing how they recover or make light of it.

I don't go to see a band to hear the song reproduced identically to the CD or else I would stay home and listen to that.

A live rock gig is more about the experience and the vibe than the actual music, whereas an orchestra recital is 100% about reproducing the music - that's the whole point.

[Cruithne]

Because classical music pre-dates recorded music, so it remains culturally expected to be an accurate portrayal of the music as it's written down and for the most part the musicians will have the music in front of them when they're playing.

[skydivingninja]

Blob explained it pretty much perfectly.

[Gorille85]

i guess i don't see the "interesting" part on that subject...

[Ħ]

I don't see what's so interesting about Unexpect. So there you go.

[Ħ]

Anyway, I was wondering if the presence of imperfection is the reason that rock concerts aren't considered 'class' material. Is it the source of classical snobbishess? I've also noticed that the rock line-up isn't really taught in schools, including colleges. There are many performing arts courses at my university, but the musical ones are pretty much all classical, jazz, or choral.

[Ben_Jamin]

Because classical music pre-dates recorded music, so it remains culturally expected to be an accurate portrayal of the music as it's written down and for the most part the musicians will have the music in front of them when they're playing.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Look at how bad the 8vm Orchestra sounded. which would've been better if they rehearsed more. But that's an example.

[theseoafs]

Anyway, I was wondering if the presence of imperfection is the reason that rock concerts aren't considered 'class' material. Is it the source of classical snobbishess? I've also noticed that the rock line-up isn't really taught in schools, including colleges. There are many performing arts courses at my university, but the musical ones are pretty much all classical, jazz, or choral.

This is because rock music is, on the whole, far less complex than classical music. Colleges with music departments don't really teach rock because there's really not that much there to teach; maybe they'll have one or two survey courses but that's all they need.

[ZBomber]

Hayden, in the million things you think of, did you ever think of.... not thinking about things?

Think about that.

[rumborak]

Somewhat related, I remember picking up a Ben Folds record a few years back, listening to it and noticing how he totally fat-fingered some piano chord at some point. Coming from the DT/prog world of "every note has to be perfectly recorded" I was initially shocked, but then I also realized that it gave the recording an intimacy that DT albums, bless them, would never have.

rumborak

[Gorille85]

I don't see what's so interesting about Unexpect. So there you go.

OH SNAP!

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Somewhat related, I remember picking up a Ben Folds record a few years back, listening to it and noticing how he totally fat-fingered some piano chord at some point. Coming from the DT/prog world of "every note has to be perfectly recorded" I was initially shocked, but then I also realized that it gave the recording an intimacy that DT albums, bless them, would never have.

rumborak

Agreed.  Also, the fat-finger towards the end of the keyboard solo in Zeppelin's "All of my Love".

[ShadowWalker]

Because a rock show has a different purpose. A classical performance is 100% about hearing the music exactly as it was intended to be played, with nothing unexpected or improvised.

I find this comment very interesting. My father really enjoys classical music. He has two versions of Walt Disney's Fantasia, both of which he enjoys very much. Now I see classical music as you do in this statement. But my father notes there are subtle nuances between orchestras and between who is conducting the orchestra, so you could have two orchestras playing the exact same notes using the exact same instruments and have both sound very different from one another. I don't hear it, but I don't listen very closely to classical music in general. My father, however, would probably consider himself to be a classical snob...

[ReaperKK]

Somewhat related, I remember picking up a Ben Folds record a few years back, listening to it and noticing how he totally fat-fingered some piano chord at some point. Coming from the DT/prog world of "every note has to be perfectly recorded" I was initially shocked, but then I also realized that it gave the recording an intimacy that DT albums, bless them, would never have.

rumborak

While I don't have that Ben Folds (Kaki King's first cd is like this) album I do agree with slight imperfections being more intimate. I love sheer technical brilliance but sometimes that seems to take precedence over songs.

[BlobVanDam]

Because a rock show has a different purpose. A classical performance is 100% about hearing the music exactly as it was intended to be played, with nothing unexpected or improvised.

I find this comment very interesting. My father really enjoys classical music. He has two versions of Walt Disney's Fantasia, both of which he enjoys very much. Now I see classical music as you do in this statement. But my father notes there are subtle nuances between orchestras and between who is conducting the orchestra, so you could have two orchestras playing the exact same notes using the exact same instruments and have both sound very different from one another. I don't hear it, but I don't listen very closely to classical music in general. My father, however, would probably consider himself to be a classical snob...

There are still going to be differences, due to the conductor's and performer's interpretation of what they're playing. There's the skill of the players, the conductor's interpretation of the tempo and dynamics in the music, and then the performer's interpretation of that, so at the end of the day it's still a human interpretation of an artistic work.
I don't listen to classical, but I listen to orchestral soundtracks, and I also have a few CDs of re-recordings of the same music which I assume is being played from the exact same sheet music, and to me there are huge differences in interpretation that make me favour one recording over another. Some recordings may creep the tempo too fast in areas, or slow it down past the point where I feel it works, or they may not push the dynamics enough in key spots, or the balance of the instruments might not be quite right to maximize the mood of the music as I feel it is in other recordings.
Even when you have strict sheet music, there is still a lot of variation from the human element.

[theseoafs]

Yeah, there's still a lot of variation that can happen while still following the composer's instructions exactly. Think emotion. I suppose this makes for the biggest difference between classical and rock performance: with rock, there's so much emotion that it actually gets in the way of the performance.

[hefdaddy42]

Anyway, I was wondering if the presence of imperfection is the reason that rock concerts aren't considered 'class' material. Is it the source of classical snobbishess? I've also noticed that the rock line-up isn't really taught in schools, including colleges. There are many performing arts courses at my university, but the musical ones are pretty much all classical, jazz, or choral.

That's because those are formal kinds of music.  If you go to a university for formal training, that's what you will get.  You don't need a university for training in rock music, you just need to listen to a lot of it and play it.

Also:

Most of my life has been spent listening to classical music

Why?  I mean, it came across like you spent it listening to classical music to the exclusion of other kinds of music.

[Ħ]

Most of my life has been spent listening to classical music

Why?  I mean, it came across like you spent it listening to classical music to the exclusion of other kinds of music.

Until I was 17, I only listened to classical music because I thought there was only mainstream music out there, which I hated. I think I discovered DT at that time, and then I got into metal and progressive rock and got over classical music.

[hefdaddy42]

OK

[MasterShakezula]

Most of my life has been spent listening to classical music

Why?  I mean, it came across like you spent it listening to classical music to the exclusion of other kinds of music.

Until I was 17, I only listened to classical music because I thought there was only mainstream music out there, which I hated. I think I discovered DT at that time, and then I got into metal and progressive rock and got over classical music.

You no longer listen to or enjoy classical?  Or just listen to it less?

[Ħ]

I'd really like to but I don't...it's not experimental at all, which is I guess why it's called 'classical'. But right now, I'm moving away from my 'prog' phase into my 'experimental' phase. Probably thanks to SW.

[theseoafs]

Classical music is not experimental at all? Romantic music and 20th-century music broke far more boundaries than any prog band.

[Ħ]

It's not experimental anymore.

[Ravenheart]

Experimentalism doesn't deteriorate with time.

[Ħ]

I guess it depends which way you look at it. Classical music was experimental/progressive, and we can recognize that and appreciate its historicity, but its no longer experimental/progressive.

[theseoafs]

What I want to say has already been said.

Experimentalism doesn't deteriorate with time.

[Ħ]

Yes it does. It's so obvious that it does.

[Sigz]

It's just a matter of how you define 'experimental'. If you're using present time as the reference frame, then of course it's going to lose it's "experimental" qualities.* I mean, no one would classify the myriad of generic prog rock/metal bands out there as experimental, but forty years ago that same music was groundbreaking. If you take into account its historical context, than it really doesn't.

But yeah, I'm with H on this one.


*this isn't true for all music of course