Author Topic: Israel a major threat to the global security  (Read 2240 times)

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2012, 11:23:16 AM »
I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm all for peace, but when you make it about what one or the other party did (notice that I don't bring Hamas into this) and couching it in rhetoric rather than looking for communication, that's when I think it ceases to be about peace. Like with this whole Apartheid Week thing that came to my school a week or two ago, it quickly went from "let's criticize Israel policy while promoting peace" to simply "let's list all the reasons Israel sucks." And I know Israel's done some pretty bad stuff, and neither I nor Adami will argue against that, but so have the Palestinians. Peace is about understanding, not about being righteous victims or assigning blame.

Also I don't view Zionism, inherent to its nature, as being racist. What it has become is racist, but let's separate that from the sort of Zionist ideal I or someone else might hold. I don't believe Israelis are superior to Palestinians, I just want for both states to coexist peacefully. That's partly why I like Salam Fayad's idea that neither side should unilaterally declare statehood or work it out through negotiations, but allow it to emerge gradually on its own through strong governance and economic development. I like the idea of Jews (as an ethnoreligious and national identity, not as a strictly religious one) having a country of their own, as much as I do for Palestinians.

And now, for a little bit of a lighthearted take by Jon Stewart:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/336830/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-words-of-warcraft#s-p1-sr-i1
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2012, 06:04:21 PM »
notice that I don't bring Hamas into this

I think you'd have every right to. Let me share some thoughts, to me Hamas is a gorilla warfare resistance group to the occupation of Palestine, they're just that and it's all there is to them, they're ridiculous when they think they can be politicians but they went for it and they won by popular vote. One Palestinian guy told me in Abu Dhabi "U.S and Israel gave us a go at democracy through elections but punished us for what we chose. Why did they even let us go through with it? And now even the people who initially voted for Hamas can't stand them anymore due to the horrific living conditions people have come to in Gaza under the Israeli blockade, with you guys making it easier for them of course", his last line was referring to Egyptians and I remember that conversation so clearly cause I was very embarrassed -like most Egyptians still are- for our role in the blockade.
But Hamas gets their popular strength through Israel, no doubt about that. People wouldn't vote for them and put up with all their crap if they didn't signify the last symbol of dignified Palestinian defiance. The occupation is still in living memory and realistically speaking; this is still about freedom.
It's also why most Arabs view them as more legit than PLO. As a government that came by popular vote or a gorilla resistance movement that never had new ideas or changed their minds about anything.
I personally want Hamas gone SO THINGS CAN MOVE THE FUCK ALONG FROM THIS POINT and I think the only way to do it is for Israel to show more compassionate appeal and peer-to-peer approach for co-existence. Also as long as Jerusalem is under sole Israeli control; Hamas or other groups that will emerge after will keep fighting. Jerusalem is a holy city for me as well but I frankly hate it with passion for all the blood that's been shed for it.

Also I don't view Zionism, inherent to its nature, as being racist. What it has become is racist, but let's separate that from the sort of Zionist ideal I or someone else might hold. I don't believe Israelis are superior to Palestinians, I just want for both states to coexist peacefully. That's partly why I like Salam Fayad's idea that neither side should unilaterally declare statehood or work it out through negotiations, but allow it to emerge gradually on its own through strong governance and economic development.

That idea is very unrealistic to me since:
- The Israeli right -which we have only been dealing with for as long as I remember- will hear it out and then say "Haha where did you get your stash? That's quality stuff".
- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!
I keep going for too long and I keep going back and clipping to keep from entering the tl;dr realm.

And now, for a little bit of a lighthearted take by Jon Stewart:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/336830/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-words-of-warcraft#s-p1-sr-i1

 :lol Hilarious but also with a lot of truth. At least in the Iranian and American fronts. But why would the current Israeli government be waving a war card to win the upcoming elections? I thought the violent aspect is what made them unpopular is Israel in the first place! I've seen Israeli protests against them and Adami obviously doesn't like them.

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2012, 07:43:21 PM »
Who don't I like?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2012, 07:48:51 PM »
notice that I don't bring Hamas into this

"U.S and Israel gave us a go at democracy through elections but punished us for what we chose. Why did they even let us go through with it?

Honestly I'm as embarrassed about that as you seem to be. Not that Israel didn't have good reason to be wary about Hamas; Hamas did follow up their electoral victory with a new round of intifada. But still, the point isn't missed on me and it's a damn shame it turned out that way.

- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!
I keep going for too long and I keep going back and clipping to keep from entering the tl;dr realm.

I'm not sure you understood here what I was trying to say, but then I can't really understand what it is you're trying to say, so please rephrase this.

As for the Israeli right bit, yes I totally agree, and that's exactly the perversion of Zionism I'm talking about. I think that's the problem with Zionism in Israel that causes everyone in the world to hate it collectively; this messianic Zionism belonging to the religious right has ruined it for everyone, particularly those of us who believe in mutualism and pluralism. This is also pertinent to the issue of Israel being in an election cycle: as long as the right can convince Israelis of the present and clear danger that besets them everyday, they can win by merit of a security issue. It's like how Republicans here in America win elections by calling on such boogeymen as Communists and terrorists.

I thought the violent aspect is what made them unpopular is Israel in the first place! I've seen Israeli protests against them and Adami obviously doesn't like them.

That's a much more recent thing. Adami will be the first to tell you that the Israeli left has been largely silent in the past, basically because they have zero influence politically.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2012, 07:49:07 PM »
Who don't I like?

I think he means Bibi and the Israeli right.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2012, 07:50:06 PM »
Who don't I like?

I think he means Bibi and the Israeli right.


Oh yea, those guys are the bane of my existence. God damn.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2012, 08:18:48 PM »
- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!

I'm not sure you understood here what I was trying to say, but then I can't really understand what it is you're trying to say, so please rephrase this.

I was trying to say Salam Fayad's idea wouldn't work in my opinion because the Israeli people are so far ahead as a civilization developing for 50 years while the Palestinians have been deprived of every mean to. Having them compete in an effort to prevail with modern world standards may sound fair but it's not. I think there should be two states and I think the Arabian Gulf countries should help Palestine get back on it's feet economically and I think the time during which should be filled with make-nice economical initiatives from Israel, that oughta do wonders imo.

Who don't I like?

I think he means Bibi and the Israeli right.

Yep.

I thought the violent aspect is what made them unpopular is Israel in the first place! I've seen Israeli protests against them and Adami obviously doesn't like them.

That's a much more recent thing. Adami will be the first to tell you that the Israeli left has been largely silent in the past, basically because they have zero influence politically.

So if it's a recent thing then Adami is in a minority of Israeli people who think Bibi has a very shitty approach to things? is the Likud most likely to win again?

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2012, 08:24:32 PM »
The populace, by and large does not support the right or bibi. However the extremists, who are in the minority (just the loudest) support him. And the government in Israel doesn't really..........listen to the people. It's not a democracy at all, and it's all insiders games, the will of the people is generally ignored.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2012, 08:27:39 PM »
Not a recent thing that they think it's shitty what the government does; recent that they have the balls to speak up about it.

- The Israeli people who either live in the west most of their lives or live in the very solid middle class lives in Israel, which include high education and facilities for learning everything, let alone having internet heh, would be so far ahead of the Palestinians to "gradually emerge through strong governance and economic development", given that the Palestinians have been hardly getting an decent affordable access to education unless they travel abroad in which cases they usually don't go back.
Trying to implement that would be like an African American trying to apply to the same job as his previous owner a week after he's been freed. We're both just walking in and may the best man win!

I'm not sure you understood here what I was trying to say, but then I can't really understand what it is you're trying to say, so please rephrase this.

I was trying to say Salam Fayad's idea wouldn't work in my opinion because the Israeli people are so far ahead as a civilization developing for 50 years while the Palestinians have been deprived of every mean to. Having them compete in an effort to prevail with modern world standards may sound fair but it's not. I think there should be two states and I think the Arabian Gulf countries should help Palestine get back on it's feet economically and I think the time during which should be filled with make-nice economical initiatives from Israel, that oughta do wonders imo.

I may not know a lot about economics and trade, but I know that that actually shouldn't be an impediment. If Palestine and Israel open their borders to each other, the free exchange of ideas, people, and tech will close that gap pretty quickly. And hey, Fayad went to an American college, as did a number of significant Palestinian men in the world today. I think there was a big Palestinian name that went to University of Michigan actually, the most prestigious university in my home state.

The populace, by and large does not support the right or bibi. However the extremists, who are in the minority (just the loudest) support him. And the government in Israel doesn't really..........listen to the people. It's not a democracy at all, and it's all insiders games, the will of the people is generally ignored.

Would you really say it's that extreme? I mean I'm genuinely unsure. What if Livni won instead of Bibi, for example?
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2012, 08:40:36 PM »
The populace, by and large does not support the right or bibi. However the extremists, who are in the minority (just the loudest) support him. And the government in Israel doesn't really..........listen to the people. It's not a democracy at all, and it's all insiders games, the will of the people is generally ignored.

Do the extremists play religious cards often with people? is that why they're the loudest?

And hey, Fayad went to an American college, as did a number of significant Palestinian men in the world today. I think there was a big Palestinian name that went to University of Michigan actually, the most prestigious university in my home state.

That's the kinda Palestinians I mentioned in my previous previous post that rarely go back to Palestine after that :lol
I see them here often too. They're the most successful Arabs I've seen in the U.S.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2012, 04:06:24 AM »


Bibi being a piece of kaka on his visit couple of days ago.
Mainly I find his scenario shittier for Israeli people, to be compared to the helpless ghetto Jews and Bibi compared to the Jewish organization that asked the U.S to bomb Auschwitz during the war (how was that gonna make it better btw?) and the U.S being the neglectful U.S of WWII who didn't go to save European asses even though they had nothing to do with it.
Now you're gonna see comments like "still milking it", "guilted into war" and "the gift that keeps on giving". Things Israeli intellectuals were just celebrating turning the page on.
Quote
“It’s 1938 and Iran is Germany. And Iran is racing to arm itself with atomic bombs,” Netanyahu said.
Yehuda Bauer, a Holocaust scholar at Israel’s national Holocaust memorial, Yad Vashem, said Netanyahu’s Auschwitz analogy in Washington this week was “sheer nonsense.”
Bauer said, “to bring up Auschwitz is a cheap way of gaining public attention.”


Quote
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s linking of Iran to Nazi Germany evoked ringing applause this week at a gathering of a pro-Israel lobbying group in Washington. Back home, though, it drew some heavy criticism.

Why do I always get the feeling that the cowards at AIPAC don't give a flying fuck about Israel's dignity? or will for that matter? And why doesn't the Israeli left or moderates have the slightest representation in the U.S?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2012, 07:35:54 AM »
No arguments here. Bibi is an embarrassment to (and the very bane of) the State of Israel.

And you're totally right about that "helpless ghetto Jews" thing. There was a time when Israel took pride in forming for itself an image of being very much separate from those cowardly, bookish Jews of Europe; we were the new Maccabees (granted I can see how after 1967 that's probably an image you don't want to express anymore).
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2012, 08:54:05 PM »
Quote
“Today we have a state of our own. And the purpose of the Jewish state is to defend Jewish lives and to secure the Jewish future,” Netanyahu said to waves of applause.

Damn, Bibi must sound like a fascist dictator to non-Jewish Israelis.

Offline Adami

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2012, 08:55:23 PM »
He's not a dictator, but he's certainly a fascist dick cheese burger.

Offline igotrhythm

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2012, 07:58:31 AM »
I agree with Chomsky 100% and think you would have to be crazy not to. Israel invaded Lebanon for no reason just a few years ago; when was the last time Iran started a war?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2012, 08:51:40 AM »
Actually Israel invaded Lebanon because a Lebanese terrorist cell was throwing rockets over the border. Just sayin'.
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Offline igotrhythm

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2012, 08:57:39 AM »
Actually Israel invaded Lebanon because a Lebanese terrorist cell was throwing rockets over the border. Just sayin'.

That's true, but let's get some perspective here. Invading an entire country because some bored Lebanese people were firing rockets in the general direction of some kibbutzim is like killing someone and his entire family because he tapped you on the shoulder. Also this isn't kindergarten; grow up and stop using the word "terrorist" or I'm gonna have to start calling you a "mean buttface."

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2012, 09:00:06 AM »
Yes, you're right, we should get some perspective: bombing some kibbutzim is more than tapping a guy on the shoulder.

Also: terrorist.

Terrorist terrorist terrorist.
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Offline igotrhythm

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2012, 09:03:56 AM »
You're a mean buttface. Buttface buttface buttface. See how childish this is?

That's a crazy use of the phrase "bombing kibbutzim." When I hear that phrase, I can't help but feel it connotes more than shooting rockets in the direction of kibbutzim; I'm sorry for that. It sounds to me like you're doing actual damage to someone or something, when in fact not a single person was even injured from Lebanese rocket attacks. Understandably, because shooting a rocket over an international border is not exactly the most precise way of hurting someone, is it? It's a minor annoyance, an itch that Israel scratched by killing hundreds of people.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2012, 09:36:47 AM »
Because Israel is better at keeping its people safe. By the way, I'd love to see you live in northern Israel for a week, love to see what you think of that minor annoyance once you're living in it.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2012, 09:39:39 AM »
Igotrhythm, in a matter of 11 posts, you've already managed a 60% success rate in making them antagonistic and abrasive. Keep a respectful tone or you won't be staying here long.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2012, 05:21:06 PM »
My Zionist Christian grandparents sent me this

http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/

Quote
Let’s pray that the study of the Word of God has a powerful, personal impact on the Prime Minister and his family and each of his colleagues and guests.
Let’s pray that many Israelis would follow the Prime Minister’s lead and begin reading the Holy Scriptures again.
Let’s pray that Bible studies in people’s homes would spring up all over the Land of Israel.
Let’s pray that pray that more and more Israelis would develop a new and deeper curiosity about Bible prophecy, both the dramatic prophecies in the Scriptures that have already been fulfilled, and those that will come to pass soon, including the all-important prophecies about the Messiah.

The prophecies are coming soon guys.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2012, 05:34:31 PM »
Damn my bigotous family. I know my views seem a little harsh at times, but nothing compares to the hate I've heard from others here. Americans should not speak for Israelis; Israelis should speak for themselves.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2012, 07:00:10 PM »
Damn my bigotous family. I know my views seem a little harsh at times, but nothing compares to the hate I've heard from others here. Americans should not speak for Israelis; Israelis should speak for themselves.

I agree. So shhhhh.


 :loser:

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Israel a major threat to the global security
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2012, 08:42:23 PM »
And speak of the devil:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/thousands-of-israeli-protesters-block-streets-in-tel-aviv-clash-with-police-1.443389

Israelis using their political voice, or at least trying to. It's nice to see, even if it did get cracked down on.

Also:

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/palestinian-prime-minister-fayyad-says-for-first-time-he-may-run-against-president-abbas-1.443385

Good for them. I like Fayyad's ideas.
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