Author Topic: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective  (Read 2580 times)

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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2012, 06:00:50 PM »
As a Christian who's read about half of The God Delusion, I don't really understand why people act like he's some kind of relentless asshole.

Mind you, he doesn't make any new points and does resort to simplistic arguments, but I don't find much of what he says offensive.

You must not remember the bitter attacks against religion that he bothers to write down in The God Delusion. The man wants to ban religion from the public square. He regularly equates religion to believing in fairy tales, Santa, etc, not to mention the bitter diatribes he hurls at religion and God at atheistic meetings or to the press.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 06:47:44 PM by Omega »
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2012, 06:14:37 PM »
parade their philosophically and intellectually embarrassing bile of books as a product of a sort of contemporary intelligentsia


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Offline ZBomber

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2012, 06:17:31 PM »
Omega you are a true warrior of god  :metal :metal :metal :metal

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2012, 06:38:13 PM »
Boots of righteousness! Sword of Scripture!!

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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2012, 06:47:23 PM »
Haha the responses are quite cute, rumborak, ZBomber, but I don't even consider myself to be a fervently religious man.

Sorry for offending your infallible deitie - I mean philosophically and intellectually handicapped idols Dawkins, Hitchens, etc.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2012, 06:57:50 PM »
I've only delved into Dawkins' material, and while I believe he's mistaken, I woudn't call him "intellectually handicapped". I mean, is stubbornness an intellectual handicap? Not really, some stubbornness is necessary I think. But I really respect and relate to the way the man thinks.

As for Hitchens, I don't know too much about him, but isn't he more of a secular humanist/sociologist kind of guy? Whenever someone writes a book and says "religion is wrong" and proceeds by listing all the atrocities in the name of religion, I'm sorely disappointed. In Hitchens' debate with WL Craig, that was Hitchens' main point, so I'd say he's pretty much "intellectually handicapped".
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2012, 07:02:38 PM »
What about the fact that Dawkins gave every imaginable excuse to avoid a debate with WLC when he made a tour to the UK? On various videos and on his website, Dawkins claims to be interested only in the truth, in engaging theists in debate and in any refutations of his God Delusion.

His actual actions illustrate a man who is embarrassed by his own publication and clings to atheism for mere pride.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2012, 07:06:28 PM »
Nah that just shows he's a coward. He's never been the best public presence, and WLC is really good at moving a crowd. I don't think it was because he is actually unable to respond to Craig's arguments. Except for the Kalaam Cosmological Argument/Argument from Contingency. I've never heard a good refutation to those arguments. He'd probably just start talking about teapots, TBH.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2012, 07:24:19 PM »
I am by no means defending Hawkins, but using the argument that he doesn't want to debate your favorite guy, is just ludicrous. To my knowledge Hawkins has debated many people. At some point it's enough and you just realize that talking to certain people is a waste of energy.

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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »
To be clear, we're talking about Dawkins, rumborak.

But long story short is that a philosopher went to the UK and invited Dawkins to defend his own arguments (or lack thereof) in the God Delusion from his refutations of them. He avoided the meeting like the bubonic plague and for good reason, too. Dawkins would have been rendered a mumbling mess had he attended the debate.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2012, 08:24:31 PM »
Sorry yeah, Dawkins :lol

Honestly, the story you tell there sounds like the classic thing that happens to extreme characters that people shun. You can see the same argument with conspiracy theorists who can't get into conferences, and then proclaim it's because the attendees couldn't handle the questions.
The fact that this dude uninvitedly traveled to the UK to track down and debate Dawkins says more about him than Dawkins.

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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2012, 08:45:20 PM »
He wasn't uninvited. He didn't organize the event. He was invited to attend the debate by a separate organization.  As was Dawkins.
Either way, it's not intended to be any sort of argument. It was a mere observation.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2012, 09:09:36 PM »
This is Dawkins' side of things:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643584-why-i-refuse-to-debate-with-william-lane-craig

Sounds rather reasonable tbh.

rumborak
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2012, 09:20:18 PM »
Oh, rumborak, I know, hehe. I know.

But rumborak, please, see his excuse for what it is: a desperate attempt to avoid honest dialogue (or embarrassment) with the opposition.

Dawkins' fellow atheist Daniel Came had the following to say on the matter:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/oct/22/richard-dawkins-refusal-debate-william-lane-craig

and if you're feeling theatrical:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqFqbKlRiLw
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2012, 09:33:30 PM »
Quote
But rumborak, please, see his excuse for what it is: a desperate attempt to avoid honest dialogue (or embarrassment) with the opposition.

At the danger of being banned for this, I have to say this:
Looking at responses like the above, I wholly sympathize with Dawkins not wanting to debate extreme dogmatists. Because frankly, that's what you are yourself, and I find myself getting close to putting you on my "soft ban" list. Just like Dawkins did with Craig.

rumborak
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2012, 09:42:08 PM »
 :huh:

Huh? My comment was even less severe than the comments an atheist made regarding Dawkins.
And what do you mean by "extreme dogmatics"?

You become more enigmatic and unintelligible as the posts go by, rumborak...
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2012, 11:47:15 PM »
both of you knock it off

Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2012, 02:33:08 AM »
nm
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 03:08:30 AM by Ħ »
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2012, 07:08:44 AM »
This is Dawkins' side of things:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643584-why-i-refuse-to-debate-with-william-lane-craig

Sounds rather reasonable tbh.

rumborak

Of course it does.  Dawkins is a brilliant and articulate person.  He prefers to debate others of the same caliber.  Can't say I blame him there.

Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2012, 11:21:57 AM »
This is Dawkins' side of things:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/643584-why-i-refuse-to-debate-with-william-lane-craig

Sounds rather reasonable tbh.

rumborak

Of course it does.  Dawkins is a brilliant and articulate person.  He prefers to debate others of the same caliber.  Can't say I blame him there.
WLC is not articulate? He's a guy that says exactly what he needs to. Have you seen him in debates?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2012, 12:29:24 PM »
No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #56 on: March 02, 2012, 12:46:43 PM »
I mean, there's arguing for the existence of some "God" like entity, and arguing for a definition of God, and then there's arguing for the Christian - or any one religions - conception of "God." I've read a lot of philosophy on the matter, and I've never seen one argument that proves the existence of God, or some "higher" realm; they at best provide the possibility of God's existence, or of some "higher" realm. Anyone who claims actual knowledge on the issue, whether they're certain there is no "God" or certain that there is a "god", is really reaching way too far.


Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #57 on: March 02, 2012, 01:18:13 PM »
No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.

Ah I see. So the way you're looking at it is "WLC vs. Richard Dawkins", while I'm looking at it as "Theism vs. Atheism". An argument stands or falls on its own. Its independent of its presenter.

WLC keeps things very simple. He pretty much lists off bullet points when he speaks. He presents the argument, not his personality. That's the way analytic philosophy (and any proper debate, really) is done. I don't think it's impossible for someone to keep up with him. If atheists are right about their view, then the arguments should be able to speak for themselves.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #58 on: March 02, 2012, 01:34:20 PM »
No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.

Ah I see. So the way you're looking at it is "WLC vs. Richard Dawkins", while I'm looking at it as "Theism vs. Atheism". An argument stands or falls on its own. Its independent of its presenter.

WLC keeps things very simple. He pretty much lists off bullet points when he speaks. He presents the argument, not his personality. That's the way analytic philosophy (and any proper debate, really) is done. I don't think it's impossible for someone to keep up with him. If atheists are right about their view, then the arguments should be able to speak for themselves.

Thinking that, in a debate, that simply the merits of an arguement alone are all that is needed to win, is pretty naive.  Especially when the arguements on both sides are extremely emotionally charged, and with neither side truly being able to prove who is right or wrong.
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #59 on: March 02, 2012, 01:35:18 PM »
Of course it does.  Dawkins is a brilliant and articulate person.  He prefers to debate others of the same caliber.  Can't say I blame him there.

Wow. I must admit, that made me chuckle. As I said, Dawkins is knowledgeable in his own scientific field. But once he dares endeavor into philosophy, he's an embarrassing hack. He commits philosophical gaffes in The God Delusion that are the typical ones you'd expect someone who has never even taken high school intro to philosophy 101.

And you're right, WLC is nowhere near his caliber. He is millions of miles above.


No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.


The temptation to respond lengthily to this is immense, but I'll try to keep it simple.

Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).
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Offline Sigz

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #60 on: March 02, 2012, 01:36:36 PM »
A real-time debate in front of a live audience is never just about the arguments.
Quote
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Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2012, 01:41:33 PM »
Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).
So true. I wish an atheist debater would just walk through Craig's typical 5 arguments and break each one down, rather than spew their ideas all over the place. But that never happens.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2012, 01:44:42 PM »
Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).
So true. I wish an atheist debater would just walk through Craig's typical 5 arguments and break each one down, rather than spew their ideas all over the place. But that never happens.

Care to list em here? I'll give it my best.

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2012, 01:45:25 PM »
I'm a bit stumped as to why it's considered so hard to refute this guy. A couple of comments:

1) Apparently Craig relies quite heavily on his Kalam cosmological argument. As pointed out in the other thread, physics already questions the validity of his conclusions about causality
2) Even if one concedes a Prime Mover, that is something very different than a God.

rumborak
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2012, 01:52:35 PM »
Of course it does.  Dawkins is a brilliant and articulate person.  He prefers to debate others of the same caliber.  Can't say I blame him there.

Wow. I must admit, that made me chuckle. As I said, Dawkins is knowledgeable in his own scientific field. But once he dares endeavor into philosophy, he's an embarrassing hack. He commits philosophical gaffes in The God Delusion that are the typical ones you'd expect someone who has never even taken high school intro to philosophy 101.

And you're right, WLC is nowhere near his caliber. He is millions of miles above.


No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.


The temptation to respond lengthily to this is immense, but I'll try to keep it simple.

Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).

Nope, he wins debates because he's good at debating.  His arguments, frankly, are (in my personal view) bunk.


Offline Ħ

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2012, 01:54:17 PM »
Of course it does.  Dawkins is a brilliant and articulate person.  He prefers to debate others of the same caliber.  Can't say I blame him there.

Wow. I must admit, that made me chuckle. As I said, Dawkins is knowledgeable in his own scientific field. But once he dares endeavor into philosophy, he's an embarrassing hack. He commits philosophical gaffes in The God Delusion that are the typical ones you'd expect someone who has never even taken high school intro to philosophy 101.

And you're right, WLC is nowhere near his caliber. He is millions of miles above.


No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.


The temptation to respond lengthily to this is immense, but I'll try to keep it simple.

Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).

Nope, he wins debates because he's good at debating.  His arguments, frankly, are (in my personal view) bunk.


Clearly you disagree with (1) but do you disagree with the other reasons Omega listed?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2012, 02:03:37 PM »
I'm a bit stumped as to why it's considered so hard to refute this guy. A couple of comments:

1) Apparently Craig relies quite heavily on his Kalam cosmological argument. As pointed out in the other thread, physics already questions the validity of his conclusions about causality
2) Even if one concedes a Prime Mover, that is something very different than a God.

rumborak

Responses:

1.) I just wrote on that other thread clarifying the issue. Physics does not question the validity of causality
2.) Given that the premises of the Kalam Cosmological Argument (points 1. and 2., not the conclusion, 3.) are more plausibly true than false (which you'd likely agree with), the conclusion logically leads to a cause of the universe which is timeless, immaterial, and omnipotent (and as Craig would effectively argue, personal). You might say the argument does nothing to endow this timeless, immaterial, omnipotent cause with attributes of listening to prayers, etc. Yet that would be correct; the Kalam Cosmological Argument does not aspire to ascribe this cause of the universe with listening to prayers or even being the God of Christianity, etc. That weight is shouldered by other arguments. Yet this argument, does, however, lead to the conclusion of an  omnipotent cause transcendent of space, time, energy and matter.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 02:22:54 PM by Omega »
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Offline Omega

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2012, 02:21:08 PM »
Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).
So true. I wish an atheist debater would just walk through Craig's typical 5 arguments and break each one down, rather than spew their ideas all over the place. But that never happens.

Care to list em here? I'll give it my best.

It would be fun, I'll admit, but it would be an enormous undertaking. Both on my part to defend them from unscrupulous objections and on yours to avoid committing logical fallacies, etc. I'd be interested in doing this, yet it would be a long, drawn out process. Many, many pages upon pages would be utilized.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2012, 02:25:49 PM »
Of course it does.  Dawkins is a brilliant and articulate person.  He prefers to debate others of the same caliber.  Can't say I blame him there.

Wow. I must admit, that made me chuckle. As I said, Dawkins is knowledgeable in his own scientific field. But once he dares endeavor into philosophy, he's an embarrassing hack. He commits philosophical gaffes in The God Delusion that are the typical ones you'd expect someone who has never even taken high school intro to philosophy 101.

And you're right, WLC is nowhere near his caliber. He is millions of miles above.


No, I worded that wrong.  I won't edit it, but I will retract it to some extent.  Let me rephrase.  WLC is a master of debate.  The actual tactics and mechanics of debating.  He's possibly the best debater out there right now.  And he wins most of his debates not because he has better arguments (he doesn't) but because he's a better arguer. 

More on that here.


The temptation to respond lengthily to this is immense, but I'll try to keep it simple.

Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).

Nope, he wins debates because he's good at debating.  His arguments, frankly, are (in my personal view) bunk.


Clearly you disagree with (1) but do you disagree with the other reasons Omega listed?

He wins debates because he's good at debating.  That's really all I have to say about that.  I respectfully decline further elaboration on this because I think it's a waste of time.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: "Persecuted" Atheists in America Need a New Perspective
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2012, 02:28:02 PM »
Have you ever considered that William Lane Craig "wins" debates because:

1.) His arguments are ultimately effective.
2.) Because atheists either evade Craig's arguments or fail to render the premises more likely false than true.
3.) Because atheists provide NO arguments against the existence of God, perhaps other than the Problem of Suffering, which inevitably backfires on the atheist.
4.) Because in response to Craig's arguments, most atheists simply then proceed to launch an emotional, bitter diatribe as to why they hate religion and all imaginable negative effects of religion (which don't amount to arguments, rather unwarranted personal biographical statements).
So true. I wish an atheist debater would just walk through Craig's typical 5 arguments and break each one down, rather than spew their ideas all over the place. But that never happens.

Care to list em here? I'll give it my best.

It would be fun, I'll admit, but it would be an enormous undertaking. Both on my part to defend them from unscrupulous objections and on yours to avoid committing logical fallacies, etc. I'd be interested in doing this, yet it would be a long, drawn out process. Many, many pages upon pages would be utilized.

Could you just list them? I don't have to respond in the thread, I'm just genuinely interested in this topic, and I have been since I was extremely young. Of course, I've never seen one argument, anywhere, that was satisfactory on the matter, but it's still interesting to see what other people think is so damn convincing.