"Music they couldn't have done without Mangini."

[johncal]

MP may have gotten lazy, but that doesn't mean he could not have done the stuff on ADToE.  I can definitely buy that various things on the album would not have happened if he were there, due to his control or possibly unwillingness to try certain things.  What I don't see reason to believe is that Portnoy was simply incapable at doing things on the drum that Mangini did on ADToE.

Unless Portnoy is fully ambidextrous like Mangini is, it would be impossible to do the same things. Since even MP has said in the past that MM is a better drummer he probably said that for a reason. The fact that Mangini is adding all kinds of stuff on top of Portnoy's parts kind of bears that out. Don't get me wrong, Portnoy was great but he would be"lost not forgotten"if he tried to do that song. 

[wolven74]

The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.

What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.

If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."

[johncal]

The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.

What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.

If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."

There was an interview where MM said he hardest part for him drumming on the album was holding back in certain sections (like the one mentioned above). That shows a high level of discipline previously unknown in it. However, you'll notice it rubbed off on JP and JR as well. Much better thought out musical passages and solos, with very little unneeded wankery. Lot's of blistering fast playing still show up but much more purposeful.

[BlobVanDam]

The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.

What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.

If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."

There was an interview where MM said he hardest part for him drumming on the album was holding back in certain sections (like the one mentioned above). That shows a high level of discipline previously unknown in it. However, you'll notice it rubbed off on JP and JR as well. Much better thought out musical passages and solos, with very little unneeded wankery. Lot's of blistering fast playing still show up but much more purposeful.

I wouldn't call Outcry any more purposeful than anything else they've done recently at all. And BITS still has a guitar solo, followed by a keyboard solo, then a continuum solo right after that. Are these any more purposeful than TCOT/TBOT/TSF/Wither? (yeah, I'm not gonna argue AROP or ANTR. I'm not that silly ).
It's all the same thing to me. Not that I mean that negatively, and I've always been one to defend it on previous albums too. They can play however fast or long that they want, as long as I likes it, which I mostly do. There is definitely less excessive "wankery" on ADTOE, but there's still a healthy dose of it (and I wouldn't have it any other way )
But DT have been perfectly capable of showing restraint with MP too. What about Wither, or TBOT? A lot of restraint there from all members. JR's piano playing is wonderfully understated in TBOT. And the second half of TCOT is very tasteful. JR has even said he found it hard to show that much restraint to play that simple.

One of the biggest problems for MP I think is the drum sound. MM's drums on ADTOE are turned further back in the mix, and sound a lot more natural and retain their natural dynamics, so they have subtlety. MP's drums on the past several albums have been very processed to lack that subtlety and dynamics, and it's very upfront in the mix. So even when he's playing something very tasteful and restrained, it's still pounding in your ear. Listen to his drum work behind the acoustic guitar at the end of TCOT. There's some nice light cymbal work, then a very understated beat that builds up in sync with the rest of the band. But it's processed to hell. Maybe that's still MP's fault from a producer standpoint, but not from a performance standpoint.

Anyway, I've forgotten where I was going with this. But DT showed more restraint on BCASL than people give them credit for. It just gets cancelled out by the few really blatant sections where they don't, like ANTR's solo onslaught, or AROP's cut 'n' paste solo extravaganza featuring Bebot's aural bleedfest. And ADTOE still has its fair share of playing super fast and crazy just because they can. But I have no problem with that.

[The Silent Cody]

"like ANTR's solo onslaught, or AROP's cut 'n' paste solo extravaganza featuring Bebot's aural bleedfest" - Blob
  

[iamtheeviltwin]

One of the biggest problems for MP I think is the drum sound. MM's drums on ADTOE are turned further back in the mix, and sound a lot more natural and retain their natural dynamics, so they have subtlety. MP's drums on the past several albums have been very processed to lack that subtlety and dynamics, and it's very upfront in the mix. So even when he's playing something very tasteful and restrained, it's still pounding in your ear. Listen to his drum work behind the acoustic guitar at the end of TCOT. There's some nice light cymbal work, then a very understated beat that builds up in sync with the rest of the band. But it's processed to hell. Maybe that's still MP's fault from a producer standpoint, but not from a performance standpoint.

Listening through the entire DT catalog recently there seem to be two things that have happened with the sound and mix of MP starting with FII. 

The first is that he is mixed louder and louder in the mix like Blob said.  It makes the drums power through no matter where they are.  MP still does the fills and time changes he always did, but it is just "in your face" and there are times it drowns out the subtlety of the rest of the rhythm section.  It is the reason it seems harder to hear JMX and some of the more subtle keyboard work in the later albums.

The second is that MP seemed to have one hand attached to the crash cymbals.  Constantly....there are some parts where everything else he is doing on the drums is drowned out by the crash, crash, crash, crash sound.  This combined with the further integration of harder metal elements into his drumming over time is why his overall playing seemed to become simpler and less complex over time.  Even though he still maintained some of the rest of his bag of tricks and they would shine through, his quest for MOR METUL MOR POWA was slowly drowning out the more progressive elements of his drumming (and the rest of the band in many places).

[KevShmev]

The biggest difference to me, when I hear MM play, is I can tell that he's playing as a member of the group. See, what I was beginning to hear with Portnoy's playing was a sort of "I'm the band leader, so everyone should follow what I do" type of playing. It seemed to me that the other members were following the drums. Like, JP would play something that would fit with MPs beat. Towards the end of MPs tenure, it started to sound as though the drums were driving the band, and all the others were just following his lead.

What I hear with MM is much more subtle, but suitable for the music. It's exactly what JR said in the documentary, I can hear MM listening and understanding exactly what every other member of the band is playing, and he plays a groove that compliments the others.

If you want specifics: At the end of the instrumental break in Outcry, where JR is playing a subtle piano part, MM plays very softly on symbols. That particular part--not necessarily couldn't be played--but wouldn't, by MP, for whatever reason. I find that part to be the most amazing act of selflessness on the whole album. It's as if Mangini's saying, "Ok Jordan, it's your time to shine. I'll just hang back and enjoy."

I agree that the part at the end of Outcry is a great example of Mangini holding back and merely adding some color to the background instead of trying to jump to the forefront when another member is playing a mellow lead.  I also love those marching beats he does at the very end of This Is the Life; very cool, and adds so much, while being so simple and understated. 

[hefdaddy42]

One difference, for me, is MM's playing in the pocket.  He pays attention to what EVERYONE else in the band is playing, and tries to complement EACH of them.  MP seemed to just lock in with JP.

[vulcandj]

While I think that Portnoys playing on the last few albums that he did with DT tended to be too busy, as for talent and his ability to play copmlex parts, I'm pretty confident that he's just as tight and talented as MM. I'm not taking anything away from MM. If you watch the LTE live in LA, Portnoy shows that he can handle just about anything. And as busy as he got with DT, if you look at his side projects, he does show that he can hold back and just be the drummer. I'm sure that he had to, Portnoy could play anything on ADTOE. Would he have written the drums like that? That we will never know.

[Öxölklöfför]

While I think that Portnoys playing on the last few albums that he did with DT tended to be too busy, as for talent and his ability to play copmlex parts, I'm pretty confident that he's just as tight and talented as MM. I'm not taking anything away from MM. If you watch the LTE live in LA, Portnoy shows that he can handle just about anything. And as busy as he got with DT, if you look at his side projects, he does show that he can hold back and just be the drummer. I'm sure that he had to, Portnoy could play anything on ADTOE. Would he have written the drums like that? That we will never know.

But, he doesn't have the ambidextrosity and simultaneous capacity that Mangini has. On the other hand, I tend to like MP's "flow" a bit more. But they are both over-the-top drummers.

[Dekost]

While I think that Portnoys playing on the last few albums that he did with DT tended to be too busy, as for talent and his ability to play copmlex parts, I'm pretty confident that he's just as tight and talented as MM. I'm not taking anything away from MM. If you watch the LTE live in LA, Portnoy shows that he can handle just about anything. And as busy as he got with DT, if you look at his side projects, he does show that he can hold back and just be the drummer. I'm sure that he had to, Portnoy could play anything on ADTOE. Would he have written the drums like that? That we will never know.

But, he doesn't have the ambidextrosity and simultaneous capacity that Mangini has.

Yeah and also MP's not that good with double bass, unlike MM who does crazy stuff on the album.

[theseoafs]

Could Portnoy play the stuff on ADTOE? Yeah, probably, with practice.

Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.

[Nihil-Morari]

I think MM's kit setup should be taken into account. His 'stereo setup' (as Gavin Harrison explains in his Unsettled video), makes him think of different stuff, rhythms, fills, grooves. Especially live I could see the way he plays things, his left hand being as open as his right, mostly playing open handed too. Everything gets different when you drum like that.

[Dekost]

Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.

Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.

[Dekost]

edit: sorry, double post

[Nekov]

Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.

Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.

What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.

[lyfeternl]

Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.

Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.

What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.

Because MM's mentality when walking in to record was totally different than what we've witnessed from MP over the past few albums. MM spoke of being a support to allow the other musicians to shine. Can you honestly say that MP would go into the studio thinking "Hey, how can I let everyone else get some spotlight?"

[Nekov]

I don't see how that has to do with MP coming up with good drumming. And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.

[lyfeternl]

I don't see how that has to do with MP coming up with good drumming. And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.

That doesn't have anything to do with "good drumming."

The question posed was "could MP have written the stuff on ADTOE?" I still think the answer is 'no' based on the fact that the drumming found on ADTOE is more laid back, groovy, in the pocket, and supportive of the other instruments. Also, we have the mixing of the drums being lower than what we had been accustomed to.

Yes, I'm sure there'd be some cool drumming moments if MP had the reins, but these drum parts and flavor that we've grown to love from MM and ADTOE would not be there. My example is the polyrhythm pieces and the drum/instrument matching found all over the tracks. Unless I've missed something, I haven't noticed MP do that as much if at all...

[KevShmev]

And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.

Or because he wore the others down by always fighting until he got his way.  He admitted this numerous times over the years. 

[theseoafs]

I only said that MP couldn't have come up with the drumming on ADTOE because MM's and MP's approaches are so different. MP was a composer and an arranger, and positioned himself as a lead player along with JP and JR. This, coupled with the rushed production cycles of the recent albums, resulted in a lot of unimaginative unison playing. With MM, the music was already composed, and he was able to compose drum parts that would complement what music was already there.

These are just their personalities. MP is a leader (perhaps a control freak) and this came out in his drum parts. MM is comfortable sitting back and allowing JP and JR to take the compositional reins. This is why I claim that MP couldn't have come up with many of MM's parts.

[Nekov]

I don't see how that has to do with MP coming up with good drumming. And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.

That doesn't have anything to do with "good drumming."

The question posed was "could MP have written the stuff on ADTOE?" I still think the answer is 'no' based on the fact that the drumming found on ADTOE is more laid back, groovy, in the pocket, and supportive of the other instruments. Also, we have the mixing of the drums being lower than what we had been accustomed to.

Yes, I'm sure there'd be some cool drumming moments if MP had the reins, but these drum parts and flavor that we've grown to love from MM and ADTOE would not be there. My example is the polyrhythm pieces and the drum/instrument matching found all over the tracks. Unless I've missed something, I haven't noticed MP do that as much if at all...

Fair point. I think there are some things Mangini plays that are beyond MPs technical skills but other than that I think MP is capable of coming up with the things MM does, but since they have a different style of playing it's hard to think of MP doing them.

And as I said before, if he was a control freak over DT it was because the other guys let him do it.

Or because he wore the others down by always fighting until he got his way.  He admitted this numerous times over the years. 

I have a friend that does the same thing but that doesn't mean I won't step up when I think he is over the line.

[BlobVanDam]

Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.

Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.

What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.

Because MM's mentality when walking in to record was totally different than what we've witnessed from MP over the past few albums. MM spoke of being a support to allow the other musicians to shine. Can you honestly say that MP would go into the studio thinking "Hey, how can I let everyone else get some spotlight?"

MM's mentality was basing his tracks off what JP wrote for him. Not really a level comparison. And it's easier to "serve" the rest of the band when the drums are so low in the mix. If anything it's at the expense of giving MM room to shine. MP's parts served the song and the players just as well as anything on ADTOE, they were just too upfront in the mix (which you can most likely blame MP for anyway, but it's still an important distinction for the purposes of the thread).
I hear little on ADTOE that MP couldn't have played or written. I won't say that MP could have done everything on ADTOE, as that's not entirely fair to MM's contributions to the album, but I think it's also unfair to dismiss MP's abilities and recent contributions to the band so lightly.

[KevShmev]

  MP was a composer and an arranger, and positioned himself as a lead player along with JP and JR. 

Huh?  Since when?  Tell me one song he composed (meaning he came up with the riffs, melodies, vocal chorus, etc.) on his own.  Just one.  My understanding has been that his strength in the writing process has always been arranging.  In other words, others write the actual music and whatnot, and he is a big part of piecing it all together.  A big part of the writing process, but that doesn't really make him a composer, per se.

[BlobVanDam]

  MP was a composer and an arranger, and positioned himself as a lead player along with JP and JR. 

Huh?  Since when?  Tell me one song he composed (meaning he came up with the riffs, melodies, vocal chorus, etc.) on his own.  Just one.  My understanding has been that his strength in the writing process has always been arranging.  In other words, others write the actual music and whatnot, and he is a big part of piecing it all together.  A big part of the writing process, but that doesn't really make him a composer, per se.

I know he's written a riff or two. I would assume he writes the vocal melodies for the songs he writes lyrics for (since we know JP and MP both did vocal demos, and it makes no sense that they would do so unless they needed a guide to show JLB the melody they'd written themselves for their own lyrics).
If you define composer as someone who writes the framework for a song, such as chord structures, riffs, etc, then I suppose he's not a composer. However, for a drummer he did contribute a decent amount to the music. Obviously nowhere near as much as JP and JR, or JM when he's part of the writing process, but he made his fair share of musical contributions over the years.

[theseoafs]

^ This. Composing isn't just about riffs and melodies, and all signs point to Portnoy having made many more compositional contributions than the vast majority of drummers in the vast majority of bands. Regardless, that's a completely irrelevant thing to get hung up about when reading my post.

[emindead]

The only good thing about MP's lack of practice and laziness is that he will never reach Lars Ulrich's level.

I will not be eager to listen to the next record, to be honest. It will get more technical, sure, but as time have shown us their records are getting more predictable and less enthusiastic. Not even Myung coming out of his cage did anything remarkable in ADTOE.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

How the fuck can ADTOE be considered as less enthusiastic than SC or even Black Clouds?

[bosk1]

The only good thing about MP's lack of practice and laziness is that he will never reach Lars Ulrich's level.

I will not be eager to listen to the next record, to be honest. It will get more technical, sure, but as time have shown us their records are getting more predictable and less enthusiastic. Not even Myung coming out of his cage did anything remarkable in ADTOE.

Emin, you've been warned before about bashing the band/album.  Quit trolling threads or you're going to be asked to leave.  Final warning.

[Reaven]

It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.

[hefdaddy42]

It's kinda funny for me to see somebody questioning MP drumming and could he play ADTOE. I really think that it would be no problem for him. As for writing drum parts of ADOTE, I also don't see any problems there for MP either. AFAIK JP said he wrote drum parts for the whole album and then gave them to MM to develop them and blend with rest of the music, but it's JP's work in essence. I'm not trying to say MM is worse in anyway than MP but to question MP like this is kinda silly. Dream Theater is what it is today because all of them in band and than includes MP, and not to mention how many awards he got in all those years drumming for DT.

OK

[vulcandj]

[/quote]
Yeah and also MP's not that good with double bass, unlike MM who does crazy stuff on the album.
[/quote]

What??? Have I missed something? Seems to me that MP can do just about anything with double bass. And for proof, I give you Beyond this Life and The Glass Prison. There's some pretty sick double bass parts in there.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

In studio, it obviously sounds perfect. However, some of his double bass live performances were sloppy.

Not taking anything from MP himself, for I think he's a great drummer of course. It's just funny that the criticism he gets as a drummer, are things Portnoy acknowledges himself. He's very, very talented; but I can't help but notice and point that his so mentioned lack of practice shows itself from time to time in his live performances.

Take A Nightmare to Remember, for example. I've yet to hear a live performance of the song where the double bass parts are played flawlessly.

[johncal]

Could Portnoy have written the stuff on ADTOE? No way.

Agree, listen for example at 1:20 in Breaking All Illusions. That part is cool, and it's something that MP would't have ever come up with.

What makes you think MP wouldn't have come up with that? I think we all agree that MP got lazy over the last 3 or 4 albums but on prior albums and also on his side projects he played some amazing beats.

Because MM's mentality when walking in to record was totally different than what we've witnessed from MP over the past few albums. MM spoke of being a support to allow the other musicians to shine. Can you honestly say that MP would go into the studio thinking "Hey, how can I let everyone else get some spotlight?"

Now THAT's something MP definitely couldn't do. I'm surprised he could get his head through the door to get into the recording studio in the first place. Just because there are certain things MP can't do that MM can, is no takeaway on MP's talent. But just because MP was always playing fast and beating the kit to death doesn't make it "harder". Just look at MM's Pearl Extravaganza pt2 video on the forum. It doesn't sound all that crazy at all but he's playing 2 distinct time signatures through mosty of it. that IS crazy. MP couldn't do that IMO. Sorry. I love MP's playing, but MM is definitely a serious upgrade.

[snapple]

MP wrote Burning My Soul. While I'm not a huge fan of the song, it really isn't bad.

I think the discussion of valuable forum server space (more obscure pics plz). But, while that's just my opinion, i can't dictate what happens on here.

I think the sytilistic(?) approach is the fairest and most accurate answer. It isn't a knock on either drummer.