Author Topic: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?  (Read 5288 times)

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2012, 09:44:51 AM »
Agnosticism doesn't say "I don't believe in God."  Not sure where you're getting that.  Agnosticism says "I/We don't/can't know whether or not there is a God."  Atheism is more certain, asserting "There is no God" in the same way that theism is certain in asserting "There is a God."
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2012, 09:51:42 AM »
"There is no God" =/= "I don't believe in God"

If the first is atheism, and the second is not agnosticism, then what new term would you use to define the second?
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2012, 09:55:04 AM »
Agnosticism relates to the surety with which one holds a theological belief.  It is not a theological belief in its own right.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 10:00:44 AM »
Agnosticism relates to the surety with which one holds a theological belief.  It is not a theological belief in its own right.
True, but I think it's been clear in this discussion that we are abbreviating "agnostic theism" with just "agnosticism".
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline the Catfishman

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2012, 10:10:34 AM »
"There is no God" =/= "I don't believe in God"

If the first is atheism, and the second is not agnosticism, then what new term would you use to define the second?

I think everybody except for you uses 'atheism' for the second.  :P

Offline Ħ

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2012, 10:13:58 AM »
Maybe.  I'm kinda brain-fried right now.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2012, 03:00:27 PM »
"There is no God" =/= "I don't believe in God"
They are both atheism.  Just like

"There is a God" and "I believe in God" are both theism. 
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2012, 03:39:07 PM »
When it comes to god I think ignosticism is the only logical choice.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2012, 05:02:42 PM »
"Ignosticism or igtheism is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism and atheism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts."

Could there be something more self-defeating than that?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2012, 05:43:44 PM »
"Ignosticism or igtheism is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism and atheism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts."

Could there be something more self-defeating than that?

Hits the nail on the head if you ask me.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2012, 07:35:36 PM »
"Ignosticism or igtheism is the theological position that every other theological position (including agnosticism and atheism) assumes too much about the concept of God and many other theological concepts."

Could there be something more self-defeating than that?
It seems almost like a way to avoid hubris.  And I say that without knowing anything about it other than this definition you posted.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2012, 09:03:14 AM »
I feel that wikipedia article to be equivalent to throwing your arms up in the arm and saying "I give up". It assumes that humanity is able to explain and prove *anything*. Where is the philosophy syllogism that shows this to be true and I hope it's in the form of BARBARA. This is just typical post-moderism talking. If I can't prove something true it must be false. In a nutshell, if I can't figure something out or don't have the means to figure something out, my methods are not wrong, it's therefore the object of my study that is wrong. Really? What was the argument that proved the methods are wrong? What's the argument that proves the object the wrong? Those two arguments point the finger away from the human object towards the perceived object as being at fault. Is it possible we lack the language and knowledge to explain something? Is it possible that our senses cannot grasp all possible knowledge or does our senses therefore encompass all *knowable* knowledge? If so, how do we know this? Granted it's difficult to learn something from that which we cannot sense or experience but "belief" is an experience, our problem is that we lack the knowledge to understand it fully. Belief cannot by default start from a neutral or agnostic view as that's not belief. You haven't reached belief yet. Belief comes from your will reaching out to something that reason cannot fully explain but isn't blind to it either.
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Re: Belief--should our default position be a neutral/agnostic one?
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2012, 03:41:48 AM »
If I can't prove something true it must be false.
I don't think anyone was saying that...

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