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Offline TioJorge

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #245 on: January 07, 2016, 05:08:55 PM »
Everyone has their own rationalizations, but it'd behoove anyone who has any kind of control issues to look long and hard at it, even if it is on and off. I'd like to point out that what you two both outlined is exactly how it started for me and over a long period of time snowballed until I was forced to look at it and accept it. Now, hopefully neither of you are sensitive enough to think I'm saying "YOU'VE GOT ISSUES", I'm not. Nor do I mean to sound like I'm preaching, I'm just pointing out that those posts are almost identical in every word to what I said to myself before the long fall. Just something I noticed is all.

Even after relapsing months ago after a year or so sobriety, I did the exact same thing. I had a few drinks, was proud of myself for controlling it...and then didn't drink at all for weeks. Then out of the blue had another bout of utter insanity and once again more or less died. The fact you can turn it off doesn't mean anything, is my point in saying all of this; in that same way, it means nothing. I restate that because 'it means nothing' could be taken as 'it means nothing because there's an issue', but it also could simply be that 'it means nothing because there isn't an issue'. I mean the neutral version because I don't know either of you. That is in fact the very scary thing about slopes. They eventually get slippery and you can never ever know for sure until you slip.

Just a couple thoughts! Quite frankly, the fact you're talking about it at all is probably a sign that you're good considering that I did nothing but deny and irrationally rationalize until I was bleeding out, both metaphorically and literally. :lol :| Gotta laugh at it now and again. Serious issues get too serious and then everyone is all  :| and I don't like to be all  :| all the time. Either way, stay safe doods n doodettes. :heart

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Offline Sub Luna Vitrea

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #246 on: January 08, 2016, 09:54:17 AM »
I wonder sometimes if the high prevalence of addiction in the United States, relative to many other countries, doesn't come from our repressed, Puritan roots, and the all-or-nothing belief system that these roots tend to engender in people.

Offline Prog Snob

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #247 on: January 08, 2016, 12:09:16 PM »
I wonder sometimes if the high prevalence of addiction in the United States, relative to many other countries, doesn't come from our repressed, Puritan roots, and the all-or-nothing belief system that these roots tend to engender in people.

Using that opinion in relation to myself as a microcosm, my parents were really strict when I was growing up. However, once that freedom came I was doing everything under the sun to make up for lost time. It's undoubtedly possible that the repressed curiosities of the population was turned loose and indulgence was the new abstinence.

Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #248 on: January 06, 2018, 08:59:01 AM »
Three years smoke free suckahs!!!
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #249 on: January 06, 2018, 09:23:34 AM »
Three years smoke free suckahs!!!

 :hat

Wait, wut?

:lonestar:

Good on ya bro.
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Online Phoenix87x

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #250 on: January 06, 2018, 09:26:19 AM »
I'm addicted to Chipotle and I see no end in sight.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #251 on: January 06, 2018, 10:35:15 AM »
I wonder sometimes if the high prevalence of addiction in the United States, relative to many other countries, doesn't come from our repressed, Puritan roots, and the all-or-nothing belief system that these roots tend to engender in people.

I don't know if that is the exact cause but I have some pretty specific and in-depth theories with respect to this idea.   It's still just my opinion, but I have a firm belief that the mass shootings and what not are driven by some very specific causes, and not at all unlike the motivations that drive the quintessential terrorists we see acting across the world.  Our addictions are not random, they're not just from "human nature", they're driven by SOMETHING.  I think it's all related; the advent of reality TV and social media - and by this I mean the prevailing need by people that are not bringing a lot to the table to "self-justify" themselves in the oddest of ways - they are all related.  I believe the same frustrations that drive people to shoot large numbers of people, or involve in religious extremism, or to the level of substance abuses we're seeing today, or the level of forced social interactions that don't actually require any one-on-one personal interaction, are all rooted in the same thing. 

My opinion only.

Offline Tick

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #252 on: January 06, 2018, 10:47:35 AM »
I'm addicted to Chipotle and I see no end in sight.
You will if they have another ecoli breakout. That hurt there business dramatically in Connecticut.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #253 on: January 06, 2018, 11:15:49 AM »
I wonder sometimes if the high prevalence of addiction in the United States, relative to many other countries, doesn't come from our repressed, Puritan roots, and the all-or-nothing belief system that these roots tend to engender in people.

I don't know if that is the exact cause but I have some pretty specific and in-depth theories with respect to this idea.   It's still just my opinion, but I have a firm belief that the mass shootings and what not are driven by some very specific causes, and not at all unlike the motivations that drive the quintessential terrorists we see acting across the world.  Our addictions are not random, they're not just from "human nature", they're driven by SOMETHING.  I think it's all related; the advent of reality TV and social media - and by this I mean the prevailing need by people that are not bringing a lot to the table to "self-justify" themselves in the oddest of ways - they are all related.  I believe the same frustrations that drive people to shoot large numbers of people, or involve in religious extremism, or to the level of substance abuses we're seeing today, or the level of forced social interactions that don't actually require any one-on-one personal interaction, are all rooted in the same thing. 

My opinion only.

Interesting theory, related to what I've thought. Here's mine.... America, especially since after the fifties, has become a quick fix culture. We've run out of patience to let things develop and grow in a natural manner. Depressed? Got a pill for that... Sick? Just take some of these and you'll be better in no time... But there are some things that just can't be quick fixed. Think of the Rush song Subdivisions, the disconnect and disillusionment that they talk about. That is a growing thing as we grow as a culture. We come up with the advancements, but no way for society to grow with the advancements. We are technologically superior, but spiritually stagnant. But hey, a few drinks and it's ok. Just get high, and mellow out. Getting behind? Here do a line of this and you'll catch up in no time. Once a chemical solution for a spiritual problem becomes acceptable, it's just a matter of time before the body, and not just the mind, becomes dependent on it. The number one thing I hear from drunks and their stories is that sense of disconnect, that they weren't given the book of rules that allowed them to fit into life, and that once they started drinking, they found the answers to questions they hadn't even asked. They finally were a part of.

Just what I've gotten from spending vast amounts of time with alcoholics and addicts.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #254 on: January 06, 2018, 03:57:38 PM »
I wonder sometimes if the high prevalence of addiction in the United States, relative to many other countries, doesn't come from our repressed, Puritan roots, and the all-or-nothing belief system that these roots tend to engender in people.

I don't know if that is the exact cause but I have some pretty specific and in-depth theories with respect to this idea.   It's still just my opinion, but I have a firm belief that the mass shootings and what not are driven by some very specific causes, and not at all unlike the motivations that drive the quintessential terrorists we see acting across the world.  Our addictions are not random, they're not just from "human nature", they're driven by SOMETHING.  I think it's all related; the advent of reality TV and social media - and by this I mean the prevailing need by people that are not bringing a lot to the table to "self-justify" themselves in the oddest of ways - they are all related.  I believe the same frustrations that drive people to shoot large numbers of people, or involve in religious extremism, or to the level of substance abuses we're seeing today, or the level of forced social interactions that don't actually require any one-on-one personal interaction, are all rooted in the same thing. 

My opinion only.

Interesting theory, related to what I've thought. Here's mine.... America, especially since after the fifties, has become a quick fix culture. We've run out of patience to let things develop and grow in a natural manner. Depressed? Got a pill for that... Sick? Just take some of these and you'll be better in no time... But there are some things that just can't be quick fixed. Think of the Rush song Subdivisions, the disconnect and disillusionment that they talk about. That is a growing thing as we grow as a culture. We come up with the advancements, but no way for society to grow with the advancements. We are technologically superior, but spiritually stagnant. But hey, a few drinks and it's ok. Just get high, and mellow out. Getting behind? Here do a line of this and you'll catch up in no time. Once a chemical solution for a spiritual problem becomes acceptable, it's just a matter of time before the body, and not just the mind, becomes dependent on it. The number one thing I hear from drunks and their stories is that sense of disconnect, that they weren't given the book of rules that allowed them to fit into life, and that once they started drinking, they found the answers to questions they hadn't even asked. They finally were a part of.

Just what I've gotten from spending vast amounts of time with alcoholics and addicts.

I like a lot of that.  I would add - or maybe clarify? - that for me, in my theory, the "disconnect" is a profound frustration that the world - the country, the economy, the hipsters - are "passing me by".   I'm not as rich as Trump/Gates/the real Housewives of Beverly Hills, I'm not as good looking as the Kardashians/Vicky Secret models/the Wahlbergs, I'm not as funny as Fallon/Kimmel/Colbert, I'm not as in touch with my sexuality as the hot gay couples on Supergirl/How To Get Away With Murder/Sensate..  add to that the quippy, snarky, sarcastic nature of most of our debate these days and you have a profound lack of ability to deal.   

You see this a lot in our new vernacular; we talk about our JOURNEY.  We can't face the outcome - especially when it's not a win, so let's resort to the JOURNEY.   I've been watching a lot of TV lately because of the cold and if I hear someone on some dipshit reality show say "it just got REAL!" one more time, I'm going to puke.  EVERY MOMENT is real, and you don't get to reset by all of a sudden saying "oh, NOW it counts".  So we separate.  Cosplay.  Video games.   Intoxication.   

Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #255 on: January 06, 2018, 04:30:27 PM »
That disconnect is so real man... One of my favorite AA speakers likes to say that we spend all our time competing, comparing ourselves to others. And if I'm always feeling less than or better than, I'll never be a part of.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #256 on: January 06, 2018, 05:47:20 PM »
^^^ I like that a lot.  I'm stealing that.

Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #257 on: January 06, 2018, 06:16:25 PM »
Yeah...it's a life motto for me at this point. Every time I start to separate from all of you, and feel like I'm such a special unique person who nobody will understand or connect with, I stick to that one like glue. One thing that unites all alcoholics and addicts is our sense of terminal uniqueness... :lol
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Offline Nekov

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #258 on: January 08, 2018, 05:18:06 AM »
Three years smoke free suckahs!!!

Nice. :clap:
I myself changed for an electronic cigarette about 4 months back and haven't tocuhed a regular cigarette since. As soon as I'm out of coils for this one I'll quit for good. It's been an easier transition than I thought it would be, and with this electronic one I've been reducing the nicotine level and now I don't have that urge I used to feel. I hope it lasts
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Offline Dublagent66

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #259 on: January 17, 2018, 02:30:13 PM »
If something is done in moderation, is it still an addiction?
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #260 on: January 17, 2018, 02:30:55 PM »
That depends really, I think it's an addiction if you can't go without.

Offline Stadler

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #261 on: January 17, 2018, 02:37:20 PM »
"Moderation" implies a level of control
"Addiction" implies a level of surrender of control

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #262 on: January 17, 2018, 02:48:22 PM »
If something is done in moderation, is it still an addiction?

I would say that addicts have no ability to moderate. But then again, that's just coming from my own experience with alcohol/pot use.
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Offline Kattelox

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #263 on: January 17, 2018, 03:09:44 PM »
I've probably somewhere in the recent past crossed the line from 'moderate' to 'excessive' use of marijuana. For lots of reasons. I recognize it's a bit of a problem (mainly financially, that's it), but it's the only way I've found to ease my mind off the other problems in my life. I don't act much different sober, or when I'm out of green, other than being anxious about not being able to relax when my anxiety kicks into overdrive. Been weighing the pros/cons for a while. Would like to stop, ideally. Just can't seem to. Old habits die hard I suppose. Guess I'll keep smoking. Predictable conclusion, eh? :) Hm...
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Offline Adami

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #264 on: January 17, 2018, 03:28:09 PM »
If something is done in moderation, is it still an addiction?

Can be.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #265 on: January 21, 2018, 11:14:52 AM »
From my experience, addiction implies the individual's lack of ability or power to moderate usage. Even step one, the only one we have to perfectly, says we admit powerlessness.
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Offline TioJorge

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #266 on: January 21, 2018, 04:14:35 PM »
^ That. But to go just off of what Loney said and leave it at that is shortsighted.

If you have to question anything about your usage in any serious manner, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "moderation" is either a stretch or a delusion. More often than not it's the latter given the huge range of what that word can mean to people. "Moderate" to one person is "bender" to another and visa versa.

I mean shit, you can do something once or twice a month and have issues. There's this perfect, clearly drawn line that people seem to want to envision when discussing things like addiction and that shit doesn't exist. If you "moderately" drink, but those two times a month you go through eight bottles of bourbon, you've probably got a problem. That's kind of the entire point of there being the ever popular term of a "functioning addict". There are vastly different circumstances, health factors and personality/psychological aspects to consider that every single person's issue with any substance is going to be singular.

So from my own perspective, the word "moderate" doesn't relate to the issue of addiction because it's such a vague and quite frankly bullshit term that used ever so often to mask the issue as opposed to actually help define it. This next statement is not always true, but for most that are questioning their possible addiction I'd lean towards it being more true than not: If you have to question whether you have a problem, chances are you do; and it absolutely wouldn't hurt to delve deeper into that questioning even if you don't.

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Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #267 on: January 21, 2018, 04:44:15 PM »
Totally agree man, we like to say in the rooms that non alcoholic people never wonder if they have a problem. I'd also like to add that the term "functioning addict/alcoholic" is probably one of the worst concepts to come out of addiction circles. Yeah, maybe Bob is a "functioning" alcoholic, still runs a successful legal practice, pays all his bills and hasn't paid any real consequences, and maybe the fact that we all see him as "functioning" is what prevents him from seeing he has a problem. The material things serve as the yardstick for his mental well being. But it has been shown again and again that this is a disease of progression, it'll only get worse, and that functioning label only guarantees that it will. So instead of seeking help when his wife calls him out on it, or when his doctor says hes got some early liver issues, he will continue in his drinking till some real damage gets done, when he kills someone else or himself.
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Offline TioJorge

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #268 on: January 21, 2018, 06:48:54 PM »
Oh for sure, "functioning-whatever" is a load of horse shit and probably one of the most damaging labels a person can give themselves even regarding all the rationalizations and delusions of moderation.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #269 on: January 22, 2018, 07:31:46 AM »
But then again, this borders on the "to a hammer, everything is a nail" type reasoning.  Just because someone says "Oh, I don't have a problem!" doesn't mean they are in denial.   Some people CAN moderate, and when they say "I'm in control", they really are.   

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #270 on: January 22, 2018, 08:44:04 AM »
Maybe, but seeing themselves in control and having your family/friends being secure that your in control are two vastly different things. If one's wife/gf/mother/etc comes up and says "I'm really concerned about your drinking", that in itself is proof there are negative consequences going on with your drinking. As to addiction, there's really no moderation when it comes to meth/heroin/coke/etc, they by nature are binge drugs. It's really hard to sell the idea of social meth use...
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #271 on: January 22, 2018, 08:56:36 AM »
I use the term functioning alcoholic a lot because it describes my boss and moreso his boss well enough when I talk about work to my friends.  I really don't know how they do it, but I know my boss knows he's an alcoholic, there's no denial, but I don't think he sees am issue with it, and maybe that's cause he and his life are overall in decent shape.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #272 on: January 22, 2018, 09:22:29 AM »
It's really hard to sell the idea of social meth use...

Genuinely lol'd at this

I use the term functioning alcoholic a lot because it describes my boss and moreso his boss well enough when I talk about work to my friends.  I really don't know how they do it, but I know my boss knows he's an alcoholic, there's no denial, but I don't think he sees am issue with it, and maybe that's cause he and his life are overall in decent shape....

for now

Updated.

What's the difference between a regular drinker, and an alcoholic?  Serious question here.  I'm not personally worried ... I'll go weeks without a drop, and then have 2 fingers of scotch for 5 days straight - just because.  But for the guy that has a few beers pretty much every day (King), or the guy that has to get drunk every Thursday (Coz)... where's the line between heavy drinking and alcoholism?

Not a shot or insinuation at either King or Coz, just something as a frame of reference.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #273 on: January 22, 2018, 10:01:47 AM »
Yea, the "for now" part  I always wonder about.  There's certainly raging alcoholics out there that never have it catch up to them for whatever reason.  I think that's a small amount of them, and not a statistic to bank on at all, but it is possible. 

As for the "what makes a difference" question, I don't know if I know that answer, but I would guess it has to do with how your addiction starts to impact others. 

Offline TioJorge

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #274 on: January 22, 2018, 10:14:11 AM »
But then again, this borders on the "to a hammer, everything is a nail" type reasoning.  Just because someone says "Oh, I don't have a problem!" doesn't mean they are in denial.   Some people CAN moderate, and when they say "I'm in control", they really are.   

Right, that's why I said "most" and not "all". Of course there are exceptions. Surely there's a clear difference between someone saying that once to a question after an actual once in a blue moon out of hand party or random binge and the guy who hides it and is constantly asked about it and his new mantra becomes "I don't have a problem".

It's really hard to sell the idea of social meth use...

Genuinely lol'd at this

I use the term functioning alcoholic a lot because it describes my boss and moreso his boss well enough when I talk about work to my friends.  I really don't know how they do it, but I know my boss knows he's an alcoholic, there's no denial, but I don't think he sees am issue with it, and maybe that's cause he and his life are overall in decent shape....

for now

Updated.

What's the difference between a regular drinker, and an alcoholic?  Serious question here.  I'm not personally worried ... I'll go weeks without a drop, and then have 2 fingers of scotch for 5 days straight - just because.  But for the guy that has a few beers pretty much every day (King), or the guy that has to get drunk every Thursday (Coz)... where's the line between heavy drinking and alcoholism?

Not a shot or insinuation at either King or Coz, just something as a frame of reference.

I think what you just said is the difference. An actual restrained and moderated use. There's also the usual definition of not being able to control yourself or envision yourself having "just a couple" and actually doing it as opposed to saying that every time and then getting sloshed every time without "meaning to", if that makes sense. You can be a heavy drinker or a regular drinker and not be an alcoholic but an alcoholic is (almost; again, singular situations and exceptions) always a regular heavy drinker. I get a pretty good reminder that is not quite so anecdotal on top of that given that I work in an extremely popular bar that's smack dab in the middle of a higher income area. So there's tons of people who come in (and who work there) who have all these stories of multiple DUI/DWI's and accidents and horrific situations that still seem to think they're totally fine and in control.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #275 on: January 22, 2018, 11:01:32 AM »
It's really hard to sell the idea of social meth use...

Genuinely lol'd at this

I use the term functioning alcoholic a lot because it describes my boss and moreso his boss well enough when I talk about work to my friends.  I really don't know how they do it, but I know my boss knows he's an alcoholic, there's no denial, but I don't think he sees am issue with it, and maybe that's cause he and his life are overall in decent shape....

for now

Updated.

What's the difference between a regular drinker, and an alcoholic?  Serious question here.  I'm not personally worried ... I'll go weeks without a drop, and then have 2 fingers of scotch for 5 days straight - just because.  But for the guy that has a few beers pretty much every day (King), or the guy that has to get drunk every Thursday (Coz)... where's the line between heavy drinking and alcoholism?

Not a shot or insinuation at either King or Coz, just something as a frame of reference.

Falling as I do closer to King and Coz than Jingle, I think it's a fair question, but I also know that my wife comes from a relationship that was clearly alcoholic and clearly abusive.   So it's an issue in our family, and one to which she's hyper sensitive.   There are a LOT of ground rules - some explicit, many implicit, and in several cases self-imposed by me - around my drinking.   I still am not convinced that experiencing the effects of alcohol is necessarily the criterion for being subject to "alcoholism".  I feel like someone can, on occasion, want to feel 'drunk' without being 'an alcoholic'.   Maybe that flies in the face of the prevailing opinion of professionals in the business, but...

Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #276 on: January 22, 2018, 11:39:56 AM »
What makes an alcoholic?.....


You know that moment when you're drinking, and you get two or three into it, and you hit that level where you're just right? You slow down, or stop altogether, and keep that mellowness through the night?

I don't. I have never hit that moment, for me, when it hits my system I get an unsatiable craving for more and more until I either pass out or get arrested.

Being an alcoholic is a very personal definition, and everyone has a different bottom before they commit to the term. For me it's a three fold illness. I have an allergy of the body, the craving I spoke of above, where that point of "I'm good" never happens. I have an obsession of the mind, which when I'm not drinking, I compusively obsess about my next drink, to the point where I push the events of the last drunk (and the connected repurcussions and consequences) out of my head in favor of the promise of the sense of ease and comfort that the drink will instill in me. Thirdly, I have a sickness of the soul, a deep yearning for connection, a sense of terminal uniqueness that creates the mental obsession. No matter the amount of time I have sober, the groundwork for all three of these lies in me. That is to me what being an alcoholic means.
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So should lonestar and I have babies or something now, is that how this works?
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Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #277 on: January 30, 2018, 09:42:00 AM »
Got together with some close buddies recently and we were watching old videos of some camping/hunting trips we'd been on. We usually go on one or two a year and I usually film large portions of them so when we're old and grey we can watch them. Anyway...

we were watching a video from a fall hunting trip in 2008 and in the video it was mentioned of my 'recent' quitting of drinking. I thought to myself when I saw this....I thought I stopped in 2009?? A few more conversations were heard in the video that made me realize I indeed stopped drinking in June of 2008....not June of 2009 like I've believed for the past few years.

when I stopped drinking then...I didn't really believe that'd be my last time drinking so I didn't memorialize the date. I knew it was a the day after a gold tournament I had played in and drank all day but years later when I tried to figure it out when I actually stopped drinking I wrongly assumed it was 2009 since I had some hardware from that tournament.

So...it turns out these last few years that I've been 'robbing' myself of a year of sobriety. I asked my wife if it'd be cool....since I've basically had a lost year of drinking....if I could just go on a few month bender and she said absolutely not  :lol   I'm only joking as I wouldn't do it anyway....but, the recent discovery of my 'true' quit date/year means I'm approaching ten years sober  :omg:   wow! Never would have dreamed that but this June it'll come true.
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Offline lonestar

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #278 on: January 30, 2018, 10:53:03 AM »
I got mine tattoo'd on me, no chance of ever forgetting or being mistaken about it. :lol
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So should lonestar and I have babies or something now, is that how this works?
Dang, you're easily the coolest fogey I know of

Offline gmillerdrake

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Re: The addictions thread
« Reply #279 on: January 30, 2018, 11:05:33 AM »
I got mine tattoo'd on me, no chance of ever forgetting or being mistaken about it. :lol

Prior to that time I had stopped for a year once, and ten months after that.....so I guess I just didnít Ďbelieveí that was truly Ďthe lastí time so I didnít commit it to memory or place any importance on the date. Wish I would have.

All I know it was in June....the last week becaus thatís the traditional time of this annual golf
Tournament I play in. Iím thinking it was the 29th of June but itís not 100% certain.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind