Author Topic: Jazz players? (Read 4402 times)

antigoon · « **on:** July 02, 2009, 08:27:33 PM »

I've begun my foray into the world of jazz guitar and boy is it interesting. SO much to digest, but I'm enjoying it thus far. For now I'm just working on familiarity in all 12 keys with chords, inversions, etc etc. A lot of work to be done for a beginner like me!

Does anyone here play jazz?

PlaysLikeMyung · « **Reply #1 on:** July 02, 2009, 09:04:40 PM »

I did a little jazz bass, but only on electric, because I had no access to an upright.

And I prefer playing fusion stuff as opposed to classic jazz. more room to experiment as far as the bass is concerned

brakkum · « **Reply #2 on:** July 03, 2009, 12:36:32 AM »

starting to get into it more on bass, guitar and piano. crazy shit.

Sigz · « **Reply #3 on:** July 03, 2009, 12:42:11 AM »

I've dabbled in it here and there, and its certainly fun to play, but I haven't put a ton of time into studying it.

chknptpie · « **Reply #4 on:** July 03, 2009, 12:43:25 AM »

Well my main instrument is the tenor sax, but other than some basic jazz songs I never really went too far.

antigoon · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2009, 10:40:46 PM »

I would love to be able to play chord-melody fluently some day. That shit is SO awesome.

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #6 on:** July 03, 2009, 11:03:00 PM »

I nearly only play jazz... But I'm not much into listening jazz, so it's not easy

I enjoy it though, there's lots of things to think about, even while playing.

antigoon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2009, 06:32:59 PM »

what instrument?

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:38:07 AM »

Piano

It's a totally new way of playing, no more octaves in my left hand and chords in my right hand... everything has to fit, you know. Every little chord has to sound awesome.

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:43:24 AM »

Yes, I do. My advice for someone just getting into Jazz, and this is an important one:

DON'T GET CONSUMED BY THEORY!!!!

What I mean by that is that's perfectly OK to practice all the technical stuff (obviously you should), but you really, really need to spend time playing tunes, also. In fact, spend at least half your practicing time learning tunes. Take a melody like "All the Things You Are" or something like that and be able to play it all over the neck in as many different places and octaves as you can by memory. Be able to hum the melody all the way through while you play the chords. Then, try to embellish the melody or change notes to make it more interesting and to lead you into soloing.

A lot of musicians who get into Jazz think it's "all about the theory" or whatever (not that you think this, but generally) and neglect the most important thing a Jazz musician should be able to do: HEAR well. Intervals, sequences, patterns, arpeggios, key changes, etc. In my opinion, hearing this stuff first is much more important than understanding it. The theory means nothing without a good set of ears in this music. Well, in any music, but especially Jazz.

antigoon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:06:26 AM »

Thanks for that! As I progress in my journey i keep hearing similar things. (and I'm actually learning ATTYA right now!)

It's a fun ride, I'm hoping I don't get discouraged

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:22:33 AM »

Well, I can tell you right now that, if you're serious, you're going to get discouraged and you're going to want to quit a bunch of times.

In fact, if you don't feel that way, something is wrong. I hate to say it like that, but it's true. The difficult thing isn't even learning the stuff, it's braving the discouragement. But, just stick with it, you'll get there.

That's pretty cool that you're learning All the Things You Are. Here's something to analyze in the tune: look at the chords in the first four lines. Figure out how the first two lines are related to the second two lines.... how they're similar. Do the same with the melody.

Icebear · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2009, 11:53:06 AM »

I don't listen to jazz that much, but I play it every now and then (bass). What I really like is the sounds and harmonies, and I really appreciate when bands and musicians make use of them in other genres of music.

When I went to college, there was a real divide between classical and jazz musicians. Even though I was in the classical branch at the school, I grew up playing all kinds of popular music, and that's where I feel at home. In spite of that, I found it really hard to live up to the "unspoken" definition of what good jazz music was. I felt like the focus always was on how weird a solo one could play. I think that shaped me in a way, to the point where I won't really describe myself as a jazz musician even though I play it. Whenever someone asks me for a jazz bass solo I say "Are you sure?". Not that I won't do it, but since I rarely find that much pleasure in listening to a three minute bass solo, I'll think twice before forcing it upon someone else.

If I do listen to an entire jazz cd, it's most likely Chet Baker or Miles Davis. Chet Baker, especially, sounds to me like someone who sings and plays from his heart, without too many notes getting in the way.

To those who do have a million notes to share with the world... cool. Different expressions appeal to different people, as it should be.

antigoon · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2009, 12:12:24 PM »

Yeah, poor choice of words. Overcoming the discouragement is going to be the real challenge.

And for the beginning of ATTYA, it's in Ab maj for bars 1-5, C maj for bars 6-8, Eb maj for bars 9-13, and G maj for the next two lines (but where does the E7#9 fit in in bar 16?)

So that covers both A sections and part of the B section. The melody is the same in A' as it is in A (just transposed to the new keys)

I think that's mostly right.

ZachyDou · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:06:14 PM »

my dad plays jazz sax, and ive done duets with him before on the piano
but mostly i stick to classical music for my lessons, and kick ass shit with my band

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:46:26 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on July 06, 2009, 12:12:24 PM

And for the beginning of ATTYA, it's in Ab maj for bars 1-5, C maj for bars 6-8, Eb maj for bars 9-13, and G maj for the next two lines (but where does the E7#9 fit in in bar 16?)

Some nice Coltrane changes there. I've never played that tune, but I guess that the E7#9 is either a dominant to get to the next key, or a 'tritonus' (if that is the English word).

Is it in G major there? And going back to Ab? Then it could as well be the Triton dominant of the Dominant of Ab

Sigz · « **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:54:42 PM »

Quote from: Nihil-Morari on July 06, 2009, 01:46:26 PM

Quote from: antigoon on July 06, 2009, 12:12:24 PM
And for the beginning of ATTYA, it's in Ab maj for bars 1-5, C maj for bars 6-8, Eb maj for bars 9-13, and G maj for the next two lines (but where does the E7#9 fit in in bar 16?)

Some nice Coltrane changes there. I've never played that tune, but I guess that the E7#9 is either a dominant to get to the next key, or a 'tritonus' (if that is the English word).

I think the word you're looking for is tritone. (I think)

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2009, 01:59:19 PM »

Yep, that would be it. We use the original German term here in Holland. So I guessed you would use that one too.

But Tritone it is.

SinisterMinisterX · « **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:05:03 PM »

I know very little about jazz theory, so I may be wrong, but ... I think the English term for what Nihil meant is "tritone substitution". The tritone (by itself) is just an interval (dim 5th or aug 4th).

antigoon · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:08:14 PM »

Quote from: Nihil-Morari on July 06, 2009, 01:46:26 PM

Quote from: antigoon on July 06, 2009, 12:12:24 PM
And for the beginning of ATTYA, it's in Ab maj for bars 1-5, C maj for bars 6-8, Eb maj for bars 9-13, and G maj for the next two lines (but where does the E7#9 fit in in bar 16?)

Some nice Coltrane changes there. I've never played that tune, but I guess that the E7#9 is either a dominant to get to the next key, or a 'tritonus' (if that is the English word).

Is it in G major there? And going back to Ab? Then it could as well be the Triton dominant of the Dominant of Ab

It goes to E major for 4 bars before it gets back to Ab.

And would you (or someone) care to explain tritone subs? I hear the term thrown around a lot.

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #20 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:09:49 PM »

Let me explain what I mean:

I mean a dominant chord, built on the b2 of a scale, and goes to I maj.
Example: C major = I

II - V - TRITONE DOMINANT - I
Dmi7 - G7/13 - C#7\#9 - Cmaj7/9

Of course the adds are for fun (well, these sound good too)

SinisterMinisterX · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:18:35 PM »

Here's the way tritone subs were explained to me:

Given any tritone, you can build two different dominant 7th chords using those notes. Those chords will have roots a tritone apart.

Example: the tritone C and F#/Gb is used in both D7 and Ab7.

So the idea is to substitute one for the other, and use it to modulate to a new key.

Say you're in G major, and you'd get to a place where D7 would be a good chord - you play Ab7 instead and resolve to Db major.

Again, I'm not a jazz guy - this is just a little something that I was taught by a jazz saxophonist.
If I got something wrong, my apologies.

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #22 on:** July 06, 2009, 02:24:08 PM »

You're very much right sir.

I've learned different theories and explanations by 5 teachers, so there's a couple of ways I look at it now.

But one's logical as well.

brakkum · « **Reply #23 on:** July 06, 2009, 06:49:39 PM »

I can't wait to get into this theory more in school.

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #24 on:** July 06, 2009, 07:07:11 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on July 06, 2009, 12:12:24 PM

And for the beginning of ATTYA, it's in Ab maj for bars 1-5, C maj for bars 6-8, Eb maj for bars 9-13, and G maj for the next two lines (but where does the E7#9 fit in in bar 16?)

So that covers both A sections and part of the B section. The melody is the same in A' as it is in A (just transposed to the new keys)

I think that's mostly right.

Yes, it's right. But, now look at the chords and the melody as well. It's just a sequence. When you learn tunes and analyze them, pay attention to this kind of stuff. Look at "How High the Moon" next and tell me what you notice. The E7, by the way, acts as a dominant VI chord in the key of G major and partly as a V to i because it's going to A-7 in the next measure. It's just a nice little way to get to the B section. To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure if that's in the original tune or if that's something hardcore Jazz guys did later.

Oh, and a tritone sub.... here's why it works:

The most important notes in a chord (in Jazz, at least) are the 3rd and the 7th, which are called 'guide tones.' The 3rd because it determines whether it's major or minor (or diminished) and the 7th because it determines whether it's a major, minor, dominant, half diminished, fully diminished, etc. 7th chord.

So, if you have a basic C7 chord: C-E-G-Bb

You could actually take away the C because you don't need it (bass handles roots most of the time), the 5th isn't important unless it's altered. That leaves the 3rd and the 7th, which define the chord for the reasons I specified above.

Now, let's say you go up a tritone from C7, which would be Gb7 (or F#7). A tritone is simply an augmented 4th or diminished 5th. Just another way to say it. The reason Gb7 works as a substitution for C7 is because the notes of Gb7 are:

Gb-Bb--Db-Fb

C-E-G-Bb

If you notice, the guide tones of each chord are the same, just reversed (bolded above). So, you still have E and Bb as the guide tones, which is why you can use Gb7 in place of C7, because the guide tones are the important notes, anyway.

But, what about the other notes in the Gb7 chord? How do they work? The Gb is a flat 5 over the C7 (or a raised 11th, however you want to think of it) and the Db is a flatted 9th. So, basically, if you play a Gb7 chord in place of a C7, you're still getting the 3rd and 7th of C7 (remember, it's the same two notes in both chords), but now you're getting a couple of tensions as well. It's an easy way to bring the harmony 'outside' a little.

antigoon · « **Reply #25 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:32:05 PM »

Wow, thanks for the in depth explanation. This kind of stuff is what makes jazz so interesting to me... the amount of harmonic possibilities are awesome.

as for ATTYA, what do you mean by "look at the chords and melody as well"? Like figure out how the melody functions within the chords?

I don't have a lead sheet for How High The Moon, but I will try to get one.

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #26 on:** July 06, 2009, 10:04:55 PM »

Sorry, I didn't have time to explain it in my earlier post, so I was a little cryptic.

A sequence is basically a musical idea that is stated, then stated again in a different key or with different pitches, but retains the same intervals (or close to the same intervals) as the original idea. A lot of the melody in All the Things You Are is just sequences. For example, the melody in the Ab major/ C major part (first 8 measures) is just sequenced to Eb major/ G major. It's almost the same exact thing, except it gets a little embellished leading into the G major part right before the B section.

Then, the first 4 measures of the B section (A-7/D7/G maj7) are sequenced down in the next 4 measures (F#-7b5/ B7/ Emaj7). It's the same melodic idea, just a little lower. So, to recap, pay attention to the chords and the melody:

Ab major
F-7(vi) Bb-7(ii) Eb7(V) Abmaj7(I)

C major
Db maj7(IV) G7(V) Cmaj7(I)

Sequenced to another key:

Eb major
C-7(vi) F-7(ii) Bb7(V) Ebmaj7(I)

G major
Abmaj7(IV) D7(V) G maj7(I)

Notice how the analysis is exactly the same with the roman numerals, but the chords are different. The melody follows the sequence of chords. That's what I was referring to. Make sense?

antigoon · « **Reply #27 on:** July 06, 2009, 10:14:39 PM »

Yes! Very much so. Anything else about this tune that you think is particularly noteworthy?

SnakeEyes · « **Reply #28 on:** July 06, 2009, 10:50:43 PM »

Well, there's TONS of stuff in EVERY song that I could spend hours writing posts about.

I guess another important thing would be the fact that this tune is a good example of the use of chord tones. For example:

The first note (Ab) is the 3rd of F-7. The Db in the next measure is the 3rd of Bb-7, etc. So, you might want to go through the tune and analyze how each note fits against the melody. Some of them are tensions, but most of them are just chord tones.

clark54 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 09, 2009, 08:42:18 PM »

I'm trying to get into jazz. I'm just trying to nail the changes in a simple 2-5-1 but I'm pretty bad at it. Still need to get my apreggios down.

millahh · « **Reply #30 on:** July 13, 2009, 02:24:55 PM »

I'm quite rusty these days, but I played upright bass in various jazz combos in college, ranging from duo to octet.

antigoon · « **Reply #31 on:** July 27, 2009, 09:50:36 PM »

I forgot about this thread! I haven't been playing much lately for a few reasons (guitar blah, taking an intensive summer course) and I've really missed it. Gonna get back on the horse where I left off working on playing over ii V I in all the keys and learning some tunes.

I think the thing that discourages me most is the HUGE up-hill climb I have ahead of me. Just being comfortable playing in X key at X time is a daunting task!

ONWARD HO!

antigoon · « **Reply #32 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:14:00 PM »

Update: Working on Antonio Carlos Jobim's "Wave"

Nihil-Morari · « **Reply #33 on:** July 29, 2009, 01:51:47 PM »

The most challenging part about Jazz for me is being able to play every tune in every key, with every type of starting chord... You know, drop 2, drop 4, drop 2+4, spread, omit 2 etc...

chrisbDTM · « **Reply #34 on:** July 29, 2009, 04:34:58 PM »

wheres mrjazzguitar?

News: Track-by-track video for Paralyzed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd5TbGbalPs&feature=youtu.be

Author Topic: Jazz players? (Read 4402 times)