Author Topic: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?  (Read 8522 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #70 on: November 09, 2011, 05:48:09 PM »
And the key is that it can be realized; the kingdom is both here and not yet fully here.  But we can get there.  To borrow a term from Crossan, this is progressive eschatology, which I think is only fitting for this forum.

Yeah, that makes sense. And that kinda explains why some people were so frustrated with "nothing happening." The Kingdom is constantly "arriving", but it's something that's always happening and sometimes so slowly that you can't really tell it's making any progress.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #71 on: November 09, 2011, 06:11:52 PM »
IIRC, didn't the ancient Jews believe in bodily resurrection?
No, there is no real evidence that the ancient Jews believed in any kind of afterlife whatsoever.  But the Pharisees of Jesus's time believed in bodily resurrection.

That's why they carried their bones everywhere, right? 
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2011, 06:22:04 PM »
By "ancient Jews" I am referring to those in the NT.  Off the top of my head they had a concept of "sleeping with their fathers" and Sheol in the OT, and Jesus doesn't reference hell as an unfamiliar concept in the NT.  Not to mention there were appearances of dead guys like Samuel in the OT and Moses/Elijah in the NT.
 
By the bones thing, I'm thinking of when they carried Joseph's bones all over the place until they finally buried it in the land.  Obviously there was a reason for that.
 
And as a point of doctrine, God promised Abraham the land but Abraham never got it.  In order for God to fulfill his promises, I don't see any way around Abraham being resurrected back to earth.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2011, 06:26:40 PM »
By "ancient Jews" I am referring to those in the NT.  Off the top of my head they had a concept of "sleeping with their fathers" and Sheol in the OT, and Jesus doesn't reference hell as an unfamiliar concept in the NT.  Not to mention there were appearances of dead guys like Samuel in the OT and Moses/Elijah in the NT.
To say they had a concept of anything in ancient times is to read something into the text that isn't there.  Yes, Sheol is mentioned in several places, but there is no doctrine of it in any way.  It just means death, or where the dead are; there is no teaching that it is any kind of conscious existence or afterlife of any kind, and there are certainly no rewards or punishments mentioned anywhere.  It's just a figure of speech.

By the time of Jesus, the Pharisees were proclaiming a bodily resurrection, which was also proclaimed by other groups of Jews such as the Essenes.  But the Sadduccees, for example, didn't believe in any such thing.  They held more in line with ancient beliefs: we're here now, and then we die and that's it.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2011, 06:30:56 PM »
See my edit...

Gonna have to chew on that for a bit before responding, but I thought of the Enoch walking with God and maybe that being a reference to some kind of afterlife.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2011, 07:54:04 PM »
By the bones thing, I'm thinking of when they carried Joseph's bones all over the place until they finally buried it in the land.  Obviously there was a reason for that.
The reason was because that is where they wanted to bury him.  Don't read anything else into it that isn't there.  If it isn't in the text, then it isn't in the text.
 
And as a point of doctrine, God promised Abraham the land but Abraham never got it.  In order for God to fulfill his promises, I don't see any way around Abraham being resurrected back to earth.
??? His promise to Abraham was already fulfilled. 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2011, 08:23:08 PM »
And as a point of doctrine, God promised Abraham the land but Abraham never got it.  In order for God to fulfill his promises, I don't see any way around Abraham being resurrected back to earth.
??? His promise to Abraham was already fulfilled. 
Abraham was promised the land.  Abraham never got the land.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2011, 08:32:47 PM »
And as a point of doctrine, God promised Abraham the land but Abraham never got it.  In order for God to fulfill his promises, I don't see any way around Abraham being resurrected back to earth.
??? His promise to Abraham was already fulfilled. 
Abraham was promised the land.  Abraham never got the land.
I don't know of one single scholar or pastor who thinks that.

God said that he would make of Abraham a great nation.  The nation got the land.
Abraham = nation.  Abraham has land.

There is no argument here for resurrection.  I have never, ever, EVER heard this used as such.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2011, 08:39:50 PM »
And as a point of doctrine, God promised Abraham the land but Abraham never got it.  In order for God to fulfill his promises, I don't see any way around Abraham being resurrected back to earth.
??? His promise to Abraham was already fulfilled. 
Abraham was promised the land.  Abraham never got the land.
I don't know of one single scholar or pastor who thinks that.
Who cares if it's orthodox?  Orthodoxy proves nothing.  Truth is truth even if no one sees it.

Quote
God said that he would make of Abraham a great nation.  The nation got the land.
Abraham = nation.  Abraham has land.

There is no argument here for resurrection.  I have never, ever, EVER heard this used as such.
You are referring to Gen 12.  I am referring to Gen 13.

 14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2011, 09:45:39 PM »
to you and your offspring[a] forever

FWIW, I don't think that means "You're getting it, and everyone in your generation afterwards is getting it too", I think it means something more like "It belongs to the entire nation which you and your generation belong to referred to two verses ago."

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2011, 03:42:57 AM »
Who cares if it's orthodox?  Orthodoxy proves nothing.  Truth is truth even if no one sees it.
I don't care all that much about orthodoxy, but you are making up entirely new interpretations that have never seen the light of day before.  It sounds like you are taking your preconceived ideas and grafting them onto the text, instead of allowing the text to speak for itself.

Quote
God said that he would make of Abraham a great nation.  The nation got the land.
Abraham = nation.  Abraham has land.

There is no argument here for resurrection.  I have never, ever, EVER heard this used as such.
You are referring to Gen 12.  I am referring to Gen 13.

 14 The LORD said to Abram after Lot had parted from him, “Look around from where you are, to the north and south, to the east and west. 15 All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Go, walk through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.”
And?  Again, Abraham = the nation.  The promise isn't about what Abraham personally gets out of anything, but about what God will do through Abraham. 

Again, I have never, ever heard anyone approach this the way you are.  It sounds again like you are forcing your views onto the text.  The phrasing that is used here has never to my knowledge been interpreted as "Abraham didn't get it, so he must be resurrected."  I mean, do you think that Abraham will be resurrected and made king over Israel?
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2011, 04:24:08 AM »
That is one interesting post-doomsday scenario.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2011, 11:48:49 AM »
Who cares if it's orthodox?  Orthodoxy proves nothing.  Truth is truth even if no one sees it.
I mean, do you think that Abraham will be resurrected and made king over Israel?
As a believer in the afterlife, I believe he has to go somewhere.  Seeing as there are two "realms" in the universe (as taught in the Bible), we have either earth or heaven as his the place he'll spend eternity.  The OT never ever ever promises heaven as that eternal place and neither does Jesus, so process of elimination leads me to believe it's earth.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Ħ

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2011, 11:52:29 AM »
As for being king, I think that is reserved for David and not Abraham?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2011, 04:39:04 AM »
Who cares if it's orthodox?  Orthodoxy proves nothing.  Truth is truth even if no one sees it.
I mean, do you think that Abraham will be resurrected and made king over Israel?
As a believer in the afterlife, I believe he has to go somewhere.  Seeing as there are two "realms" in the universe (as taught in the Bible), we have either earth or heaven as his the place he'll spend eternity.  The OT never ever ever promises heaven as that eternal place and neither does Jesus, so process of elimination leads me to believe it's earth.
The OT never promises anything.  It's a completely different theology altogether with no teaching of an afterlife.  And even so, I've already explained that the promise has been fulfilled.

And you think any "process of elimination" is an adequate basis for establishing doctrine?  That seems very strange.

As for being king, I think that is reserved for David and not Abraham?
Your theology isn't making any sense to me here.  If, as you say, God's promise that "the land will be yours" can only be fulfilled by a resurrected Abraham coming into possession of the land, how can he own the land and someone else be king?

Also, if we are using afterlife to get earthly rewards now - David was already king, why would he be king again?

Furthermore, how can anyone be king if Jesus is king?

I am not following you one bit.  I want to understand but I just don't.  Can you help me out?
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2011, 10:59:59 AM »
If anybody wants a good book dealing with this topic, check out RC Sproul's The Last Days According to Jesus. I'm almost done with it and can't say too many good things about it. Sproul explains what Jesus taught about the Kingdom of God, what was being prophesied in the Olivet Discourse and what Paul's eschatology was. His arguments are well documented and everything is supported by the text - in the original language. The lynch pin of the failed apocalyptic prophet hypothesis is the translation of phrases like "the end" and "before this generation ends," which in Greek have absolutely nothing to do with the end of time.

Anyway, go read it. I found it for two bucks on Amazon.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2011, 08:22:03 PM »
Another good book on Jesus's kingdom teachings is In Parables by John Dominic Crossan.  I cannot recommend it strongly enough.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Kingdom of heaven/Kingdom of God in the four Gospels?
« Reply #87 on: November 27, 2011, 06:47:39 AM »
I am not following you one bit.  I want to understand but I just don't.  Can you help me out?
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.