Clarification on rules about talking about leaks, especially rule 2a

[Perpetual Change]

After posting "you could download the album off the bleeping internet" today in a thread where everyone is discussing a leak, I received this message:

Perpetual Change,

Re: bleep

You have received a warning for inappropriate activity. Please cease these activities and abide by the forum rules otherwise we will take further action.

Considering there is no legal way to legally download the new bleep album this is just blatantly dumb and crosses rule 2a.

Naturally, I went to check out what rule 2a says:

2a. Sharing, requests for sharing, offers to share, or discussion of illegally obtaining pirated material is strictly prohibited. This includes, but is not limited to, warez, direct links, asking for links/files, and hinting at resources for finding the material.

I thought to myself, hmmm, in this case there's a lot of threads at the forum which cross the line of the bolded out part, considering we discuss leaks all the time. Aside from that, just simply noting that something is "on the internet" is barely hinting at where to find it. So, when everyone's discussing a leaked album (apparently with the forum's unspoken approval), simply pointing out that it is leaked on the internet is a problem?

That's my first question.

Now, my second question is, when I read on, I saw this:

2b. With regard to "leaked" material, you are not allowed to discuss the leaking or sharing of an album by any artist, or that an album has leaked.  In addition to the above, with regard to Dream Theater and side-projects by the members of Dream Theater, you may not discuss the leaked material whatsoever.  For other bands, you can in most cases discuss the content of the leaked material as long as you do not reference the leak, where you obtained the material, or sharing the leaked material.

So, what I'm pulling away from this is that it's OK to discuss leaked material that isn't DT, but it is not OK to discuss the actual where/why/what/when/how of the leaking, nor is it OK to admit that you are, in fact, listening to a leak. Is that it?

Just asking for some clarification!

[Jamesman42]

Yeah, to me it seems to say you can say that you listened to the album before it was released. How else (besides some good connections) can you listen to an album before it's released? It must've leaked. i guess because it is implied it is leaked, the whole "unspoken forum approval" is true and there is no issue. Except DT, because obviously this forum is primarily a DT forum.

[Nick]

When it comes to non-DT stuff you may talk about whatever you wish as far as the music is concerned. What you did was blatantly promote piracy and that is not what this forum is for. It's a fine line, and one that is easily crossed, but with regard to leaked material there are two alternatives. Completely allow the discussion of where and how on leaks and basically promote them, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, or we could ban the discussion of leaked material altogether. This latter idea would actually leave much less grey area and be much easier to enforce, but we have always tried to stay balanced on this and allow people to discuss the music. The best I can say is what I always say, think before you post and err on the side of caution. Also think of where your post would lead. If someone sees your post let go and asks where on the internet they can find it then are they the ones really at fault? Technically yes, they are also at fault, but really you are moreso in this case.

[Perpetual Change]

As far as blatantly promoting piracy goes, maybe. The thing is, I wasn't really promoting pirating the album as much as I was making a joke that the poster I was responded to wouldn't have to go to stoop to the drastic measures which he was referring to because all he had to do was look at what everyone else in the thread had obviously already done.

But I didn't start this thread to contest my warning so I'll just say thanks for the clarification, which is what I was hoping to get!

I feel sexier now that I'm being watched, anyway.

Though one thing bothers me:

It's a fine line, and one that is easily crossed, but with regard to leaked material there are two alternatives. Completely allow the discussion of where and how on leaks and basically promote them, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, or we could ban the discussion of leaked material altogether.

Why does it have to be either/or? I'm not seeing how this "thin line" thing is true. Everyone already knows leaked material comes from the internet. How is just putting that out there "promoting piracy"?

[YtseBitsySpider]

In the past....(though I've grown out of this behavior) ......the hard part for me has been to NOT BRAG that I have certain material illegally before everyone else. I find alot of the new members that arrive just before an album comes out get nailed with this one.  Now I usually let bosk know that's it been leaked as soon as I come accross it so that he's aware. And usually.....he knows already.

[Nick]

As far as blatantly promoting piracy goes, maybe. The thing is, I wasn't really promoting pirating the album as much as I was making a joke that the poster I was responded to wouldn't have to go to stoop to the drastic measures which he was referring to because all he had to do was look at what everyone else in the thread had obviously already done.

But I didn't start this thread to contest my warning so I'll just say thanks for the clarification, which is what I was hoping to get!

I feel sexier now that I'm being watched, anyway.

Though one thing bothers me:

It's a fine line, and one that is easily crossed, but with regard to leaked material there are two alternatives. Completely allow the discussion of where and how on leaks and basically promote them, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, or we could ban the discussion of leaked material altogether.

Why does it have to be either/or? I'm not seeing how this "thin line" thing is true. Everyone already knows leaked material comes from the internet. How is just putting that out there "promoting piracy"?

As far as this site is concerned material cannot be obtained illegally. By talking or joking about it you are opening up Pandora's box. Even if your actual comment isn't that bad, it can still lead to bad responses, and that's where the thin line comes in. Joking or not your comment was clearly throwing it out there that people should just stop waiting and illegally download the album.

Can the rule be a bit rough, sure, but the simple fact of the matter is that the other option is completely banning leaked material discussion altogether, so people should be happy we put up with the hassle to allow the leeway.

[ariich]

How else (besides some good connections) can you listen to an album before it's released?

You pretty much answered your own question. It is often possible to hear a preview/promo copy of albums before they are released.

[bosk1]

I'll just add:

Regarding why there is a slight difference in how DT material and other band material is handled, in addition to the fact that, as pointed out, this is a DT forum, the other reason is simply that we don't have time to be the Internet piracy police, which would include having to know the release date for every band out there.  If you are discussion PT before the release date, for example, it comes down to, if a mod who is a fan and knows about the leak catches you, you are busted, but if a mod who isn't a fan and doesn't know it is pre-release date reads it, you're in the clear.  That's just too difficult to try to enforce.  So, yeah, if you say something that tips us off that it is pirated, you're busted.  If not, we aren't going to go digging.  So to put the rule a different way, for DT, it's a "zero tolerance" policy.  For all other bands, it's more of a "don't ask/don't tell" policy.  It doesn't mean we approve.  But it means we aren't going to do anything if you keep it to yourself.

As far as, for example, saying that something is on the Internet, it's a close call, but I would back up the mod decision that was made for this reason:  You aren't saying where it is, but you are encouraging those who might not have otherwise done so to go look for it.  And again, we don't want this site being used for that.

[Ħ]

The first thing that came to mind was how SX's Iconoclast discussion was not allowed, but Opeth's Heritage discussion wasn't forbidden at all.  In fact, wasn't "discuss the recent leak" in the thread title itself?

[Perpetual Change]

I'll just add:

Regarding why there is a slight difference in how DT material and other band material is handled, in addition to the fact that, as pointed out, this is a DT forum, the other reason is simply that we don't have time to be the Internet piracy police, which would include having to know the release date for every band out there.  If you are discussion PT before the release date, for example, it comes down to, if a mod who is a fan and knows about the leak catches you, you are busted, but if a mod who isn't a fan and doesn't know it is pre-release date reads it, you're in the clear.  That's just too difficult to try to enforce.  So, yeah, if you say something that tips us off that it is pirated, you're busted.  If not, we aren't going to go digging.  So to put the rule a different way, for DT, it's a "zero tolerance" policy.  For all other bands, it's more of a "don't ask/don't tell" policy.  It doesn't mean we approve.  But it means we aren't going to do anything if you keep it to yourself.

As far as, for example, saying that something is on the Internet, it's a close call, but I would back up the mod decision that was made for this reason:  You aren't saying where it is, but you are encouraging those who might not have otherwise done so to go look for it.  And again, we don't want this site being used for that.

I get it. Since talking about leaked material is always skirting a thin-line, you shouldn't be surprised if once in awhile you get caught with your pants down.

[Jamesman42]

How else (besides some good connections) can you listen to an album before it's released?

You pretty much answered your own question. It is often possible to hear a preview/promo copy of albums before they are released.

I meant good connections = leaks, but I felt dirty typing it so that's why I typed good connections instead

Always making me feel dirty ariich