Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 231857 times)

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Offline Rathma

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1750 on: March 18, 2012, 11:47:27 AM »
Gary Johnson's stance on drugs sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1751 on: March 18, 2012, 11:48:14 AM »
Ugh. What's the point.

rumborak
I'm sorry. I actually understand what you mean now - and what I said there just proves your point kinda.

So yes, you have a point when it comes to libertarians coming off as apathetic. For instance, libertarians often say that private charities do a much better job than government in various causes. I would say that's true. But it's another step to take to actually actively donate, and I feel like a fail this requirement - which I even consider to be a moral duty, so I'm not happy with myself. So, I guess at least I deserve coming off as heartless, and I deserve it. But I'm not a people person at all, and I tend to see social problems from either a strict philosophical standpoint (the use of force, etc) or cost-benefit - and I fail to take into account the "human cost" - and yes it will get taken care of better with charity but that depends on charitable people, and many libertarians do not classify as charitable people.

The worst part of that is Objectivists. They do not hold to the moral principle that we are our brother's keeper. So they definitely cast a negative light on libertarianism in a way, and I actually don't think too highly of Ayn Rand as a person.

This is all true when it comes to domestic policy, but on foreign policy it's equally true. Libertarians get praise from anti-war lefties when it comes to interventions. Rwanda is the best of these examples. True non-interventionists (like many of the founders) would NOT have intervened militarily to stop the genocide in Rwanda. That could DEFINITELY be seen as heartless. How libertarians can counter that, I don't even know. And by counter that I mean the heartless claim. Because you would simply have to let them slaughter those people because you'd have faith that in the long run, non-intervention and free trade will prevail.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1752 on: March 18, 2012, 11:58:48 AM »
And you don't mind paying the inevitable human price?
With your statement there and RP's I'm arriving at the conclusion that being Libertarian means being apathetic.

rumborak

Well, I hope you would admit we should at least decriminalize personal use of hard drugs. That doesn't mean we have allow it to be sold it stores, but it could help us do a lot to address demand. People are afraid to get help for an illegal drug because they're worried about legal consequence. Portugal provides a clear example that the "inevitable human price" is much, much higher with criminalization, and our current policies.

So really, it's hard to call that apathy. Especially when I would add that instead of imprisoning people, we can use a fraction of that money to help people get over their addictions (if they chose to), which is pretty much the opposite of apathy.



Legalization of weed would be great, and I think it would do a lot to help our ailing economy, but I don't think it would be magic bullet.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1753 on: March 18, 2012, 12:10:24 PM »
Oh I don't think it is either, but the benefit of legalization far far outweights the costs of criminalization.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1754 on: March 18, 2012, 12:35:03 PM »
And you don't mind paying the inevitable human price?
With your statement there and RP's I'm arriving at the conclusion that being Libertarian means being apathetic.

rumborak

What?  If you want to make the issue of drugs purely about human price, then legalize all drugs except meth right now.  Seriously.  The wars fought over the illegal drug trade are appallingly horrific and wasteful.
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1755 on: March 18, 2012, 01:48:22 PM »
Why only meth?
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1756 on: March 18, 2012, 05:11:51 PM »
I'm pretty sure there's legal bath salts and shit out there that are worse than meth.

Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1757 on: March 18, 2012, 07:01:04 PM »
To weigh in on the current conversation; I fully agree that marijuana should be legalized and regulated in a manner similar to alcohol. Most hard substances should be decriminalized (an important distinction), and treated as a health issue rather than a legal one, so that people truly facing problems with these substances can seek the assistance they need without fear of stigma or legal repercussion. Rather than using the encompassing label of 'drugs', each substance needs to be judged on an individual basis.

Anyway;
The Puerto Rico primary was today. It has been called for Romney by most major sources. With 25% of the vote in, CNN has Romney at 83% with 26,860 votes. Santorum is in second with 2.642 votes. Shockingly, it looks like Santorum's strategy of 'You guys need to speak English dammit' didn't play well there.
Having gotten more than 50% of the vote, Romney will get all 20 pledged delegates there.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1758 on: March 18, 2012, 07:31:20 PM »
@ That first bit: totally. Like someone else said already, no one will seek help if they think they're gonna be thrown in jail, and all that does is ensure further addiction and problems down the road.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1759 on: March 18, 2012, 08:51:09 PM »
Wow, Romney cleared out this one for sure.

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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1760 on: March 18, 2012, 11:42:30 PM »
Why only meth?

 - It's known for making people violent.

 - Meth labs can explode.

 - To say Meth aggressively destroys the body is an understatement.  Unless I understand incorrectly, a meth addiction can kill you in two years.  I don't think any other drug is quite so horrible to you.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1761 on: March 19, 2012, 06:14:16 AM »
So maybe all the more reason to take these on an individual basis, rather than relegating it all to "hard drugs." Not that I want to legalize or even decriminalize anything "harder" than pot, but I understand the sentiment.
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Offline Rathma

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1762 on: March 19, 2012, 12:14:15 PM »
I don't think any other drug is quite so horrible to you.

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Offline PraXis

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1763 on: March 19, 2012, 01:05:35 PM »
Libertarians are apathetic for the most part. As far as I'm concerned, do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm someone else. Your body, you choose what to put into it. You won't get any compassion out of me if you screw up, so you must accept the consequences of your actions.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1764 on: March 19, 2012, 02:08:31 PM »
That's all ideologically convenient, but it misses the fact that a single misstep can render a person incapable to make any further rational decision regarding his life. I'm just not Libertarian enough to not care.

rumborak
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1765 on: March 19, 2012, 02:16:40 PM »
That's all ideologically convenient, but it misses the fact that a single misstep can render a person incapable to make any further rational decision regarding his life. I'm just not Libertarian enough to not care.

rumborak

And this is prevented now? It would be one thing if prohibition works, but seeing as how it just makes the problem worse, this complaint is misguided and wrong.

Alcohol causes thousands of deaths a year, many from a simple misstep. If we want to take your principle concern seriously, we would have to ban alchohol if anything.

Offline Adami

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1766 on: March 19, 2012, 02:18:14 PM »
That's all ideologically convenient, but it misses the fact that a single misstep can render a person incapable to make any further rational decision regarding his life. I'm just not Libertarian enough to not care.

rumborak

And this is prevented now? It would be one thing if prohibition works, but seeing as how it just makes the problem worse, this complaint is misguided and wrong.

Alcohol causes thousands of deaths a year, many from a simple misstep. If we want to take your principle concern seriously, we would have to ban alchohol if anything.

I think he was more referring to the concept of "Let them do what they want, but screw them if they need any help because of it".
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Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1767 on: March 19, 2012, 03:05:18 PM »
That's all ideologically convenient, but it misses the fact that a single misstep can render a person incapable to make any further rational decision regarding his life. I'm just not Libertarian enough to not care.

rumborak

I hope you read my previous post. I would definitely disagree. While I do agree that "rewarding" bad behavior creates the wrong incentives - we still have a MORAL personal obligation to help out when some one is in dire straits. At least in my opinion.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1768 on: March 19, 2012, 05:32:35 PM »
When in doubt, just trade with them more.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1769 on: March 20, 2012, 05:14:39 PM »
That's all ideologically convenient, but it misses the fact that a single misstep can render a person incapable to make any further rational decision regarding his life. I'm just not Libertarian enough to not care.

rumborak

And this is prevented now? It would be one thing if prohibition works, but seeing as how it just makes the problem worse, this complaint is misguided and wrong.

Alcohol causes thousands of deaths a year, many from a simple misstep. If we want to take your principle concern seriously, we would have to ban alchohol if anything.

I think he was more referring to the concept of "Let them do what they want, but screw them if they need any help because of it".

Well, then much of my post still applies. Even without giving governmental assistance for people to overcome an addiction, it would still make it more likely that they'll seek private help.


Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1770 on: March 20, 2012, 09:06:04 PM »
Ah, show is over. Romney dominated two states in a row, and Santorum is imploding. Gingrich and Paul are roadkill.

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1771 on: March 21, 2012, 08:14:07 AM »
Correct.  Romney is the nominee.  Absolutely no doubt now.

The only thing left to wonder about now is how much Gingrich and Sanntorum will humiliate themselves by living in a state of denial.  I think Gingrich's massive head will not allow him to quit.  Santorum......I dunno. 

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1772 on: March 21, 2012, 09:17:28 AM »
And Paul's still goin'. :biggrin:
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1773 on: March 21, 2012, 10:02:34 AM »
his last hurrah, perhaps.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1774 on: March 21, 2012, 10:49:55 AM »
Apparently he was at Jay Leno yesterday night. I dunno, I somewhat understand his desire to get his message across, but there's the danger of being "that guy" who doesn't get the drift at all. I mean, he's now with Gingrich in that "stooges" category that news writer use to fluff up the volume of their article.

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1775 on: March 21, 2012, 11:47:05 AM »
You know what, though, I think it's a little bit different with Ron Paul.  Kinda like the Green Party candidates and the other fringe candidates.  They're mostly about the message, most people know that.  Ron Paul was never a viable candidate just like his son will never be a viable candidate, because Libertarianism will never be a viable political philosophy in this country.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1776 on: March 21, 2012, 11:50:12 AM »
Funny considering my best friend's girlfriend's Randian younger sister was just poo-pooing me about how libertarianism is the only correct system for the US. :lol
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1777 on: March 21, 2012, 12:34:42 PM »
Right, because a plurality of Americans (you know, a group large enough that it has to include at least some minorities) are going to jump on a system that believes the 1964 Civil Rights Act is garbage  ::)

Yep, that's gonna happen right around the same time a giraffe crawls out of my ass and plays "Eruption" on a banjo while whistling Dixie in 7/8

Offline Adami

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1778 on: March 21, 2012, 12:36:29 PM »
Funny considering my best friend's girlfriend's Randian younger sister was just poo-pooing me about how libertarianism is the only correct system for the US. :lol

And something tells me she is a middle/upper class white girl with no actual responsibilities yet.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1779 on: March 21, 2012, 12:46:53 PM »
Affirmative. She lives in a nice big house and she believes all libertarians are posers except those that stick to the core principles of the original Ayn Randian flavor.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1780 on: March 21, 2012, 12:49:07 PM »
Sounds like a nightmare.

Offline jsem

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1781 on: March 21, 2012, 12:52:24 PM »
Making all kinds of generalizations seems to be the way to go around here.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1782 on: March 21, 2012, 12:53:17 PM »
In this case, no exaggerations. That is what she said. She said Ron Paul is an idiot who's corrupted the original message.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1783 on: March 21, 2012, 12:54:29 PM »
How is it an unwarranted generalization? It's widely known that RP's core are young impressionable middle/upper class whites.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1784 on: March 21, 2012, 12:59:35 PM »
Yep, that's gonna happen right around the same time a giraffe crawls out of my ass and plays "Eruption" on a banjo while whistling Dixie in 7/8

Keep in mind that I don't mean to pry, and I'm only saying this because I care:  Dude, you seriously need to think about changing your diet.
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