Author Topic: Election 2012  (Read 54251 times)

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1610 on: March 10, 2012, 07:42:26 AM »
What I find sort of baffling is the fact that Obama has really been a very centrist president, yet, conservatives continue to despise the guy as if he's actually been able to move any truly progressive legislation through congress.  The only thing that even comes remotely close to a liberal or progressive legislative achievement are the stimulus (which despite conservatives efforts to paint as something that's created no jobs has in fact created a lot of jobs) and the health care legislation, which the NON-Partisan CBO notes will be paid for.

He appointed a couple of liberals to the SCOTUS, I guess I can see why conservatives wouldn't like that, but it's not like the court isn't still tipped to the right.

I think conservatives should just take a deep breath and let it out slowly.  :)

Which, as was mentioned before, actually was thrown together under the Bush administration anyway, so it's not Obama's.
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Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1611 on: March 10, 2012, 07:46:52 AM »
1.) I'm not pitchfork and torches mad at Obama :P
2.) All of the things you asked I have to say no to. If there were a perfect answer to all of those questions, I'd take it. But there aren't. How is he going to make it easier to go to college? I think it's premature to end the war. I don't give a shit about wall street bankers. Why doesn't he do something about oil speculators (I believe the problem stems from Bush Sr.)? I don't think the rich should foot my bills. I'm going to work as hard as it takes to pay my bills. I guess having more in my paycheck is nice except that I've owed taxes the last two years even though I haven't claimed any exemptions.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1612 on: March 10, 2012, 08:51:35 AM »
Whoa, Dennis Kucinich lost his primary.

I always liked that guy. Stood up for what was right and got called names for it.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1613 on: March 10, 2012, 12:06:07 PM »
Yeah, I said something in a previous post that I thought I would have been warned for. While I think TL's post is asinine, I don't see what's particularly bad about it.

I was being a bitch last night. Getting hella lag in counter strike. Fucking up my kpd. But, I disagree with a lot of Obama's rhetoric. Being conservative, why should I like anything he says?

Because Obama is a conservative too? He's practically Reagan.

Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1614 on: March 10, 2012, 12:47:42 PM »
In the US, a single payer universal health care system was actually more or a Republican policy than a Democratic one until about a decade ago. Some Republicans oppose it now largely because the Democrats support it.
Heck, here in Canada, while the idea was conceived by the first leader of the NDP, it was first put into place nationally by Conservative PM John Diefenbaker.

On another note, we have a few new primary results in today;

Guam, with a total of 215 votes, has gone 100% for Romney. That's 9 delegates.

The Northern Marianas Islands were more competitive, only going 88% for Romney. 738 votes for Romney, 51 for Santorum, 25 for Paul, 25 for Gingrich. 9 more delegates for Romney.

The Virgin Islands are going today, but we don't have any results yet. In 2008, 'Uncommitted' won there with 47% of the vote.

Kansas, which is by far the biggest contest today, has about 24% reporting so far. Santorum currently has 51.5%. Gingrich has 18.6%, Romney has 18.1%, and Paul is at 10.7%.
0.7% has gone for 'Uncommitted', while Bachmann, Huntsman, Cain, and Perry each have 0.1%.

Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1615 on: March 10, 2012, 01:33:15 PM »
With 77% reporting, CNN has called it for Santorum.
Santorum 53%, Romney 17%, Gingrich 16%, Paul 13%.

We still don't have many votes in from more urban areas, so Romney will probably gain a few percentage points before we're done, but Santorum definitely has it. Santorum's win isn't really a surprise, and his margin was bumped a bit by the fact that some people literally seem to base their vote on 'that guy visited my state, so I'll vote for him'. That said, even accounting for that, the margin he's winning by is a good sign for him.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1616 on: March 10, 2012, 01:39:01 PM »
In the US, a single payer universal health care system was actually more or a Republican policy than a Democratic one until about a decade ago. Some Republicans oppose it now largely because the Democrats support it.
Heck, here in Canada, while the idea was conceived by the first leader of the NDP, it was first put into place nationally by Conservative PM John Diefenbaker.

And the individual mandate was a conservative idea until Democrats started to agree to that compromise. Republicans aren't very conservative anymore, because they want to basically undo everything that's been done for that past 80 years. For the most part, Democrats are basically just arguing for idea's we've already done, and many of which conservatives used to argue for.



As for the current news, I think this goes to show you how unpopular Romney is in the "heartland" of America. He doesn't represent the base of the Republican party, and that's a huge factor.

Also, I heard the actual delegate conventions were happening for Iowa and Wyoming, so Paul's claim that he has more delegates will actually be challenged today.



Offline berrege

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1617 on: March 10, 2012, 01:42:34 PM »
I'm a European but I follow the 2012 election very closely. I always hope Santorum does well, not because I like him or his ideas, on the contrary, but because the pre-elections last longer that way. Here in Europe almost everyone I know hopes Obama gets re-elected instead of one of those crazy Republicans. Go Barack!

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1618 on: March 10, 2012, 03:04:09 PM »
I'm a European but I follow the 2012 election very closely. I always hope Santorum does well, not because I like him or his ideas, on the contrary, but because the pre-elections last longer that way. Here in Europe almost everyone I know hopes Obama gets re-elected instead of one of those crazy Republicans. Go Barack!

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Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1619 on: March 10, 2012, 03:54:29 PM »
With 99% reporting in Kansas, Santorum has 51%. Romney was able to get above 20%, and may be eligible to get a few delegates, but the bulk of them will go to Santorum.
Out of 40, NYT has projected 30 delegates for Santorum, while CNN has projected 33 for Santorum and 7 for Romney.

Romney has also picked up 18 delegates total from Guam and North Marianas Islands. He'll likely pick up 9 more from the Virgin Islands.

Quote
Also, I heard the actual delegate conventions were happening for Iowa and Wyoming, so Paul's claim that he has more delegates will actually be challenged today.
Reading into it, it sounds like today is when the counties select delegates to go to the state convention, and then the state convention, which will take place later, will determine who Iowa's delegates officially go to. By the end of the day, we should have an indication of whether or not there's anything to Paul's caucus delegate strategy.

Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1620 on: March 10, 2012, 04:28:17 PM »
Well, some of us don't agree with some of the policies that Obama/other left leaning people want in place. To me, it's like that old saying there's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone is paying for it somewhere.

There should be some degree of safety net (which I'll admit I'm a bit more moderate in that regard) but, healthcare for all via government scares me. In fact, my doctor installed a new plan that wouldn't accept insurance anymore so he could still make money from being a doctor. He actually went from about 400 patients to 50. He's an ADD specialist and is trying to find a way so that he can still see me and a few other patients. I've been going to him for nearly 7 years. He referred me to someone else, but fuck. 7 years is a long time to see the same doctor when you're almost 22. We had a trusting enough relationship where I could tell him that I didn't like a certain med/dosage and we could change it right then and there; no questions asked. But now, I don't get to see him. Yes - it was my doctor's choice and I don't blame him at all. He is trying to keep his job that makes his money.

The option to see him costs 1,500 a year. It's great for regular checkups, but at 22 I don't really need regular. I only need to see him about 3-4 times a year (which he would like to charge 40-60 per visit). So, yeah. You can see why 1,500 without any sort of insurance is a bit of a pain.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1621 on: March 10, 2012, 04:31:24 PM »
I think a leftist equivalent to libertarianism on the public stage would be healthy for national discourse. I mean, we've basically got a Reagan Republican in the White House and the GOP is posturing itself so far to the right of him. There's no balance. 

Being labeled a socialist is like a kiss of death nowadays.

Offline snapple

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1622 on: March 10, 2012, 04:33:47 PM »
I think a leftist equivalent to libertarianism on the public stage would be healthy for national discourse. I mean, we've basically got a Reagan Republican in the White House and the GOP is posturing itself so far to the right of him. There's no balance. 

Being labeled a socialist is like a kiss of death nowadays.

I hardly call him Reagan. He openly states that he wants to tax the higher ups. I mean, sure it's not like he's Lenin or w/e, but that's not Reagan.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1623 on: March 10, 2012, 04:54:35 PM »
Well, some of us don't agree with some of the policies that Obama/other left leaning people want in place. To me, it's like that old saying there's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone is paying for it somewhere.

There should be some degree of safety net (which I'll admit I'm a bit more moderate in that regard) but, healthcare for all via government scares me. In fact, my doctor installed a new plan that wouldn't accept insurance anymore so he could still make money from being a doctor. He actually went from about 400 patients to 50. He's an ADD specialist and is trying to find a way so that he can still see me and a few other patients. I've been going to him for nearly 7 years. He referred me to someone else, but fuck. 7 years is a long time to see the same doctor when you're almost 22. We had a trusting enough relationship where I could tell him that I didn't like a certain med/dosage and we could change it right then and there; no questions asked. But now, I don't get to see him. Yes - it was my doctor's choice and I don't blame him at all. He is trying to keep his job that makes his money.

The option to see him costs 1,500 a year. It's great for regular checkups, but at 22 I don't really need regular. I only need to see him about 3-4 times a year (which he would like to charge 40-60 per visit). So, yeah. You can see why 1,500 without any sort of insurance is a bit of a pain.

 what you know of other countries healthcare systems? And i can both agree that "obamacare" has some faults, but in the end, we can expect to pay less for better care.

Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1624 on: March 10, 2012, 05:26:45 PM »
Well, some of us don't agree with some of the policies that Obama/other left leaning people want in place. To me, it's like that old saying there's no such thing as a free lunch. Someone is paying for it somewhere.
When all costs, such as insurance premiums, taxes, etc are taken into account, Canadians on average spend about half as much per capita on health care, compared to Americans. This doesn't include many additional costs you would pay in America at the time of actually receiving medical care.

One of the largest factors is a much higher emphasis on early diagnosis/treatment, and preventative care. If you want to see a doctor for a regular checkup, or because you think you may have a medical problem, you can see someone (your primary physician or another doctor if you so choose) for free. In the US, you often have to pay for checkups and tests, and so many people put it off until they absolutely have to go.
Most serious illnesses are easier and cheaper to treat the earlier you catch it.

So the argument that you shouldn't have to pay for the health care of others doesn't really work, because you're paying less for your own care under this kind of system as well.

Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1625 on: March 10, 2012, 05:33:12 PM »
I hardly call him Reagan. He openly states that he wants to tax the higher ups. I mean, sure it's not like he's Lenin or w/e, but that's not Reagan.
Reagan raised taxes 11 times, including on businesses, and on the highest earners.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1626 on: March 10, 2012, 10:14:09 PM »
As someone who has no horse in this race...can I just ask a stupid question?   (I'm totally Apolitical and always will be...but that's off topic)

The way the system is run now...majority rules, right?   What would happen (theoretically) if socialism carried a majority vote?   

I mean, hypothetically...it seems like quite a few people are debating over whether or not the health care situation is actually "socialism" or not...and I was just curious as to what would happen if there actually was a "socialist party" (is there?  I know there's lots of parties we never hear about) and they ended up carrying the majority of the vote? 

I mean, could the government veto that in some way and say, "Majority rules...but you can't change our form of government even if it is the majority."   

As an outsider, I guess I'm just curious.
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Online Fiery Winds

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1627 on: March 10, 2012, 10:21:19 PM »
Others can answer that far better than I can, but the system (in theory) is to prevent the majority from infringing upon the rights of the minority.  That's why we're not a direct democracy (which is majority rule) but a representative republic.
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Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1628 on: March 10, 2012, 10:33:41 PM »
Any elected party would need to do things within the confines of the current system. If the Socialist Party of America somehow had their nominee for President elected, but they still had a congress made up of Democrats and Republicans, they would have to work with that congress on any laws they wanted to pass.

Also, it's important to make a distinction between socialism and communism. Many developed countries, including the United States and Canada, have many socialist policies in practice. There are even many developed, prospering countries that are socialist. When thinking socialism in modern times, don't think the Soviet Union; think Sweden. They're doing just fine. Socialism is simply a different, valid means of running a country.

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1629 on: March 11, 2012, 04:47:27 AM »
I think a leftist equivalent to libertarianism on the public stage would be healthy for national discourse. I mean, we've basically got a Reagan Republican in the White House and the GOP is posturing itself so far to the right of him. There's no balance. 

Being labeled a socialist is like a kiss of death nowadays.

I hardly call him Reagan. He openly states that he wants to tax the higher ups. I mean, sure it's not like he's Lenin or w/e, but that's not Reagan.
Yes it is.  Reagan most certainly raised taxes on the highest earners.  He said it was their obligation, exactly what Obama and Warren Buffett have said.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1630 on: March 11, 2012, 08:00:18 AM »
Any elected party would need to do things within the confines of the current system. If the Socialist Party of America somehow had their nominee for President elected, but they still had a congress made up of Democrats and Republicans, they would have to work with that congress on any laws they wanted to pass.

Also, it's important to make a distinction between socialism and communism. Many developed countries, including the United States and Canada, have many socialist policies in practice. There are even many developed, prospering countries that are socialist. When thinking socialism in modern times, don't think the Soviet Union; think Sweden. They're doing just fine. Socialism is simply a different, valid means of running a country.

But...but Communism! Those damned Reds are gonna take away all our personal freedoms!
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1631 on: March 11, 2012, 09:38:08 AM »
Also, it's important to make a distinction between socialism and communism. Many developed countries, including the United States and Canada, have many socialist policies in practice. There are even many developed, prospering countries that are socialist. When thinking socialism in modern times, don't think the Soviet Union; think Sweden. They're doing just fine. Socialism is simply a different, valid means of running a country.

This, totally. Being "socialist" in modern times really just means that you one of your priorities is to equalize inherent (unfair) inequalities in your society.

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Offline jammindude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1632 on: March 11, 2012, 10:26:16 AM »
Thanks for all the feedback.  Fascinating stuff.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1633 on: March 11, 2012, 11:45:31 AM »
In the end the GOP is heavily abusing the fact that a lot of people have been woefully ignorant of what has been going on outside the US borders. So, knowing that, they've been able to convince their base of stuff like that in the Netherlands old people wear "do not euthanize" bracelets. And, that there's no difference between Socialism and Communism.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1634 on: March 11, 2012, 03:18:16 PM »
Woeful ignorance is just the epithet I'd use. It shocks and appalls me how unworldly Americans today can be, and what voting power that sector of society has.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1635 on: March 12, 2012, 11:07:40 AM »
Woeful ignorance is just the epithet I'd use. It shocks and appalls me how unworldly Americans today can be, and what voting power that sector of society has.

There's plenty of woeful ignorance to go around too. 


Offline Super Dude

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1636 on: March 12, 2012, 12:32:33 PM »
Quote
"It's not about your jobs. It's about some phony ideal. Some phony theology. Oh, not a theology based on the Bible."

What in the fuck? The Quran definitely acknowledges and was without a doubt heavily based on the Bible.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1637 on: March 12, 2012, 12:35:34 PM »
MUSLIM APOLOGIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1638 on: March 12, 2012, 01:14:32 PM »
Quote
"It's not about your jobs. It's about some phony ideal. Some phony theology. Oh, not a theology based on the Bible."

What in the fuck? The Quran definitely acknowledges and was without a doubt heavily based on the Bible.

You really think the people who believe Obama is a Muslim (as many as 52% by some polls in the south) give a shit about inconvenient things like facts?


Offline TL

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1639 on: March 13, 2012, 09:13:52 AM »
So more contests today.
Also, according to MSNBC, Ron Paul actually won the vote in the Virgin Islands back on Saturday, but will only get 1 delegate, while Romney will get at least 7 (there are 9 total), because they have some crazy, convoluted system there.

As for today, we have the HAMAS primaries; Hawaii, Alabama, Mississippi, American Samoa. My predictions;

- Hawaii will go to Romney. Paul will do surprisingly well and come in a decent second, though not close enough to Romney to actually have a shot of winning it.

- Alabama will go to Gingrich, but Romney and Santorum will be close behind. It's proportional, so depending on how the congressional districts go, the delegate split could be somewhat even between the three of them.

- Mississippi; basically the same story as Alabama, except without Gingrich coming in first.

- American Samoa; Somehow part of the US, in spite of being closer to New Zealand than to Hawaii. I have no idea how the voting will go, but Romney will get most, if not all, of the delegates, because hey why not.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1640 on: March 13, 2012, 09:20:38 AM »
It's kinda hilarious to see Gingrich and Santorum bitch at each other "No, you leave! No, you leave!"

I've seen RP supporters complaining about the mass media ignoring him, but I was just reading a CNN article about today's election, at this point he's mentioned with a half-sentence at best.

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1641 on: March 13, 2012, 10:40:40 AM »
I found this somewhat amusing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G106jlvZYmQ

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1642 on: March 13, 2012, 10:43:43 AM »
The comments are really sad.
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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1643 on: March 13, 2012, 10:50:38 AM »
The comments are really sad.
It's Youtube, the comments are always sad.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Election 2012
« Reply #1644 on: March 13, 2012, 11:22:12 AM »
Haha, gotta give it to Santorum on that one. That guy was a classic Ron Paul drone.

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