Official Queensryche thread: Kickstart the next album

[TAC]

Yes, they are great on Della Brown, and Yes, Rockenfield has always been awesome. But I am thinking that post Promised Land, they seem to be along for the ride. Especially after DeGarmo left. I know Tate gets a lot of blame for the direction of the band in the post DeGarmo era, but to me, the rest of the band looked spineless and ultimately let it happen. Now kudos for them to eventually pushing Tate out, and they deserve credit for that.
But really how is TLT era Queensryche any different from Bobby Blotzer's Ratt? 


I'm gonna give myself a timeout.

[bosk1]

Okay, but you are blurring a lot of things together.  If we are just talking about writing, I would agree that in the post-PL era while Tate was still in the band, their contributions declined.  And once we got to Mindcrime II, we saw a 3-album run where they were basically shut out of the writing process.  We can argue about how much to blame them or Tate, but that isn't really the point.  I'll just give you that, for whatever reason, their contributions declined.  But your earlier point was different.  You had said that you believed they had pretty much always just been along for the ride.  And that clearly wasn't the case up through PL and in the LaTorre era.

[TAC]

Did I say always? I might have. I remember watching Eddie Jackson from the 3rd row during the Mindcrime tour. He was so unimpressive. But I've always loved Rockenfield.

I suppose I get as frustrated as the next guy post Empire (or for others post PL), but to me, in the post Degarmo Era, the band (Rock/Jackson/Wilton) are as much to blame as Tate. And I DO hold that against them.

[Samsara]

Regarding Wilton, Jackson, and Rockenfield as songwriters:

Michael Wilton is a complete songwriter. He was from the EP-Empire. He composes the riffs, puts together arrangements, and at times, writes lyrics (Deliverance, One and Only, there are others -- he came up with the chorus for Speak). He and Chris were pretty much equals in QR through Mindcrime. DeGarmo took a bigger role following Empire, but in general, Michael has always been a good songwriter.

Wilton's strength is in his riffs, however. DeGarmo was always a better chord progression writer, melody writer, came up with cool harmonies, and of course, a better lyric writer. And while Michael arranges songs, Chris was a master arranger. The duo complimented each other very, very well. So on songs MIchael wrote, you may notice the arrangements are a bit simpler (Resistance) in comparison to Chris. Arrow of Time is another one that clearly stands out as a Michael arrangement to my ear.

In the past, Eddie contributed a song or two. The issue with Eddie, however, was that he was never needed to be a songwriter. In fact, and this is coming from various people in the QR camp over the years, Eddie writes a lot of power ballad type things, or, at times, punkish-type tunes. The latter never really fits with QR, and the former, well, take a listen to In This Light and Bulletproof. Eye9 is also a ballad, albeit a moody one, which appeals to me.

But in general, during 1981-2009, Eddie never really contributed more than a song an album, if that.

Scott is a songwriter, and has been working at it steadily since the 1980s. But like Eddie, he never really contributed during the original lineup run, except for a couple of instrumental things, until Promised Land and HITNF. He took a bigger role after that, and had a big role in the self-titled record. I believe he wrote the lyrics to Vindication, but I may be mistaken.

But no, he was never one of Queensryche's main songwriters.

Eddie and Scott mostly just laid down the rhythm section, and that was that, for the original band. Their roles expanded over time, and now, obviously with only them and Michael remaining from the original band, they have stepped up their songwriting contributions.

The Queensryche of NOW is very much a more equal songwriting unit, with all five guys contributing. But Ed has really stepped up the most to compliment Wilton and La Torre.

In regard to the Tateryche guest writers years of Mindcrime II, American Solider and Dedicated to Chaos, that's not quite true in regard to them being shut out. All had credits on Mindcrime II (albeit it limited), and Ed and Scott had a lot of credits on D2C. But the majority of those records were composed by outside guys, yes.

[Samsara]

Did I say always? I might have. I remember watching Eddie Jackson from the 3rd row during the Mindcrime tour. He was so unimpressive. But I've always loved Rockenfield.

Eddie as a player and a singer, to me, has always been severely underrated. Same with Scott Rockenfield. But they played the role as the rhythm section in the original band, with the "glory" going to the guitarists and singer. Just the way the ball bounced for them. Eddie has a GREAT voice, and frankly, if it weren't for some pitch problems every now and then, he's the best singer in current Queensryche. Seriously. I heard him at soundcheck once in 2003 singing lead, and it blew me away how powerful he was.

I suppose I get as frustrated as the next guy post Empire (or for others post PL), but to me, in the post Degarmo Era, the band (Rock/Jackson/Wilton) are as much to blame as Tate. And I DO hold that against them.

Yes they were. I tended to look over that over the past several years, but always admitted it when someone brought it up. The fact of the matter was, Ed, Scott, and Mike didn't know the extent of the corruption. They were happy they were getting paid. Michael was more upset because his songs weren't used by Tate. But they were all getting paid, so they went along with it. It was only when Tate was caught redhanded by Rockenfield for trying to sell the rights to Mindcrime out from under the nose of the band, and when someone friendly with Wilton revealed to him what he had heard Tate's plan was following the 25th anniversary of Mindcrime, that the band took action.

So yes, they went along with it, and are, along with Tate, very much party to the destruction of the old band. But the worst perpetrator is clearly Tate. But they all had fault for sure. Rock, Jax and Whip didn';t grow a set and do something about it until they HAD to.

[bosk1]

In regard to the Tateryche guest writers years of Mindcrime II, American Solider and Dedicated to Chaos, that's not quite true in regard to them being shut out. All had credits on Mindcrime II (albeit it limited), and Ed and Scott had a lot of credits on D2C. But the majority of those records were composed by outside guys, yes.

Yeah, I don't think we are saying different things; just different wording, I guess.  And I know basically what you know (except that you know more), so...

[jjrock88]

I think overall I am content with the S/T and CH more so because I just wanted Queensryche to rock again. I just couldn't wrap my head around that the band name Queensryche that released Operation Mindcrime also released Dedicated to Chaos.

I know personalities had changed within the band and years had passed between releases, but it just didn't seem right that this was the music the band was putting out.

So I guess I can say I am just content with settling with the TLT material because it definitely rocks and is much better then the alternative; which would have been something along of "The Key" and "Resurrection".

But the TLT material is definitely in the rear view mirror when comparing to 80's/early 90's QR

[Samsara]

Without a doubt, the "Tateryche" years of 2006-2012 were WRONG. All wrong. The outside writer thing is unreal to me. I remember my wife and I going down to Jason Slater's studio in the Bay Area in early 2006 and listening to Mindcrime II on the console where it was recorded and mixed. I think it had been done and sent to the label the week before. Slater left the room for the hour, and we had our own private listening party. I was jazzed that some of it really rocked, but wasn't sure about it.

Then Slater proceeded to tell us how he and Stone wrote 90 percent of it, and they only used "Hostage" and a couple of Wilton riffs in The Hands and Murderer to "placate" the band. And how he (Slater) re-did Scott's drums. It was...shocking. Seriously, I remember the sick feeling I had and didn't know what to say. The record wasn't bad, but it wasn't great, and it just jarred me to the core that Queensryche just got hijacked by the singer and the producer.

Fast-forward five, six years, and things were just horrendous. It was a terrible time to be a fan. Terrible.

So yes, I too take legitimate band-written material like this current post-Tate era over "Tateryche" any day of the week. I just don't connect with any of it like I connected with the original band. There's a continuity and feeling that isn't the same, because of the changes in writers.

Even though "Justified" (the last song the original band did together, which was meant for Tribe but came out a few years later on a greatest hits package) isn't a classic, that vibe and feeling is very much present in the song, and just distinctly sounds like Queensryche to me.

[jjrock88]

I think you summarized things when you had 2 terrible's and 1 horrendous in the same paragraph.

Justified was a very cool tune

[TAC]

Brian, are you saying that Scott does NOT play on OM:II?? It's been ages since I heard it so I don't remember the drumming.

[Samsara]

Brian, are you saying that Scott does NOT play on OM:II?? It's been ages since I heard it so I don't remember the drumming.

What I was told by Slater (so take a big lump of salt), was that Scott did originally, and then Slater replaced his tracks afterward. I forget exactly how he phrased it. Something like literally taking every hit Scott had, and then programming those hits one by one? I have no way of knowing, as I'm not a musician and don't know what to listen to. What I do know is, the drums don't sound like Scott, and if you compare Scott's drumming on Mindcrime at the Moore (the live record documenting the MC II tour), with the studio record, they are very different.

[TAC]

WOW..WTF??

Why do that?

[bosk1]

Yeah, that is basically what I was referring to.  That, and the revelation by the session guy Tate brought in to record guitars (was it on Mindcrime II and American Soldier?  I forget the specifics.) that, basically, session guys recorded almost everything.

[T-ski]

Parker Lundgrens name is absent from the current discussion.

He seems like a decent kid with some talent, but I never felt he was a good fit with the rest of the guys. I think it again shows the lackadaisical attitudes of Wilton/SRock/EdBass that they didn't try very hard to get a better fit for a 2nd guitarist for the band.

[bosk1]

Well, he was brought in during the time Tate controlled the band (which I know you know).  So if you want to blame them for him initially coming into the band as part of the Tate Family Circus, I can see that.  But the thing with Parker is, he really worked hard to develop his chops, really make a concerted effort to learn to play DeGarmo's parts pretty faithfully, and bonded with the rest of the band.  By the time Tate was kicked out and the rest of the guys took control back, Parker had more than proven himself and was really part of the band.  I don't think it made sense to dump him at that point. 

[T-ski]

but does Parker add anything to the band?

its great he can play the classics the right way, but other than youth and exuberance, is he really bringing anything else to the table?  he has a few credits to his name on the last two albums, but I don't see him as anything more than the "other guitarist" in the band. 

[Samsara]

re: Parker

Parker has grown up a lot. Yeah, the nepotism was high in 2009 when Tate brought him in. We were all pissed that Tate hired his then son-in-law. But he worked his ass off and continues to, and so I give him a lot of respect for that as a guitar player. He's a better fit than Gray or Stone, and has really been able to mesh with Wilton a lot better. Although Wilton has now taken over all of Chris' signature solo guitar solos, so Parker only does Chris' trade-off pieces.

But the thing is, Parker knows it all -- cold. In spring 2013, I was fortunate enough to be backstage pre-show, and was sitting with him. I walked in the room, sat down, and he had his headphones on, and was playing, I asked him what he was doing, and it was his routine -- he plays the entire set before the show to warm up. And he does that every day, regardless of whether they are playing or not.

So he adds dedication and commitment to playing.

As for creativity, he does write, but not really in the style that Queensryche is. He loved punk music, and grew up playing that. He's also into that rockabilly thing as well. I've heard some stuff, he can write for sure. And he writes some kick ass solos too. For example, most people assume that the song "Don't Look Back" from the self-titled 2013 LP was Michael's, because Michael wrote the music for that song. Nope. Parker wrote that entire harmonized solo. Same thing in Hellfire -- Whip's song, and he does that first smaller solo. But the main solo in the song was written by Parker. Chris sometimes did the same thing for Michael. Damaged was written by Chris, but Michael wrote and plays the solo.

So Parker has a lot of talent. But he's not really ever going to be more than "the other guy' like T-ski said, because he doesn't get a chance to shine in Queensryche. I asked Parker in 2013 twice if Michael was going to hand over some solos, and you could tell it was a bone of contention to a degree. Parker wants to play some of those Chris solos, but Michael wasn't giving them up. And you know what, after all those years of giving them up to Kelly Gray and Mike Stone, I don't blame Wilton one bit. I did ask Wilton about it, and he basically said those were his and Chris' signature spots, and he wants to make sure it is done by him. Again, I respect that completely. But it doesn't do Parker any favors.

Parker wasn't in the original plans for Rising W.E.S.T. WEST originally stood for Whip Eddie Scott Todd. They had Parker on as a guest. But when it went over so well, I remember Ed saying if Parker is in the band, what do they call it, and then I mentioned the whole Before the Storm lyric "rising from the west," and Ed goes, "yeah, there you go, that's it." That was before they moved on from Tate as Queensryche. But when they moved on, and took over the Queensryche name, they felt good about Parker, and he stayed on.

He did, prior to all that, somewhere in the 2011 timeframe, have an opportunity to try out for In This Moment, Maria Brinks' band, which I think would have been a better fit for him. This is, again, coming from Jason Slater, so take it with the usual grain of salt caveat. According to Slater, ITM required the guitar player to show original material -- they wanted someone who could write. So Parker, according to Slater, asked Slater if he could use some of the songs they had worked on (together, I am assuming). I'm not sure whether Parker pursued it fully or not, and never really thought to ask while I had access to him (and it would have had to be in private, of course). But to be honest, if he got the gig and turned it down to stay with QR, that was a bad career move for him. But again, no idea what came of it. maybe he didn't get it.

So no, I don't believe, as currently constructed, Parker has any chance of making a name for himself with Queensryche. But it's a gig, and heavy touring gigs that provide a steady paycheck (so he doesn't have to go back to working at Guitar Center), so I can't really blame him for sticking around. But no, image wise, and everything else, he's not really a "fit,' in my opinion. But he's earned his stripes for sure.

[TAC]

That's great insight, Brian. Thanks for posting.

[Kwyjibo]

A lot of this I did know and some things I didn't know, but it's always interesting to hear from someone who has some kind of inside information.

Regarding the TLT fronted QR: I really like those two records, the self-titled could have been a little bit better if the songs were more fleshed out imo, but with CH they really delivered.

Are they as good as the classics? No, but they are records I like and like to spin regularly when thinking about Queensryche. Can't say that for the Tate-ryche stuff. And it's good that they don't end the QR-career with D2C.

[bosk1]

On a somewhat-tangential note, it's good to see some renewed interest and discussion about this band. 

[Grappler]

On a somewhat-tangential note, it's good to see some renewed interest and discussion about this band. 

Well, some of us do need a home.   

The more I learn about some of the behind the scenes stuff, the less I find myself listening to the band.  I'll go on a binge and listen to them for a week straight, and then shelve them for another year or two.

[bosk1]

Yeah, I hear you on the behind the scenes stuff.  It can be hard to take.

It must be strange coming from a forum dedicated to Queensryche discussion, and coming here where there is only one thread (well, two if you count the Geoff Tate thread), and not a very active one at that.

[Samsara]

Yeah, I hear you on the behind the scenes stuff.  It can be hard to take.

It must be strange coming from a forum dedicated to Queensryche discussion, and coming here where there is only one thread (well, two if you count the Geoff Tate thread), and not a very active one at that.

It's refreshing, to be honest. And a lot wider perspective from people not continually fixated on Queensryche.

p.s. watch out for that Grappler guy. I hear he's trouble. 

[KevShmev]

For some reason, I tend to listen to active bands, or bands with current music I actually like, more that bands who are not releasing new material anymore or new stuff I don't care about or like.  For example, a new great album by a favorite will always get me to revisit their old great material.  And in the case of 'Ryche, I really only love the stuff from 1984-1994, so they simply do not get into my rotation very much, although I often get that "I don't know why I don't listen to this stuff more often" feeling when I do listen.

[jammindude]

The Right Side of My Mind is still my favorite post DeGarmo song....even though it's from the worst album.

I'm just going to assume that the memory of D2C was so painful that you forgot it existed. 

If Queensryche were Star Wars, Q2K would be the prequels........but D2C is more like the Holiday Special.

[LudwigVan]

Count me in as one of those that tuned out and turned off from the band amidst all the nasty turmoil, to the point where I didn't even give the TLT albums a chance until very recently.  When I finally did, I was surprised to find that I really enjoy these last 2 albums. Very solid indeed, especially CH. 

While TLT isn't quite as good as Tate, overall they successfully captured some of the feel and flavor of early Queensryche, which is a good thing IMO.  Looking forward to see what's in store for the next album.  Not that I'm expecting a Warning -> Rage For Order type of breakthrough, but if they can make a similar leap in quality/progression that they made between Q13 and CH, I'll be more than happy.   

ps.  To AnybodyListening (Samsara), it's good to see you back on DTF!

[Lowdz]

Re Parker - I wasn't impressed at the time with the nepotism aspect but he's proved himself. He wrote Where Dreams Go To Die, which is as Queensryche as anything the band has done since PL.

[Samsara]

ps.  To AnybodyListening (Samsara), it's good to see you back on DTF!

Thanks. Good to see you too.

Re Parker - I wasn't impressed at the time with the nepotism aspect but he's proved himself. He wrote Where Dreams Go To Die, which is as Queensryche as anything the band has done since PL.

He did, but according to Parker, Wilton and La Torre, what Parker wrote, and what the song became are totally different. They didn't explain how, but the song was put through the paces to become a "Queensryche" song. I think Wilton altered the arrangement and Todd changed some lyrics, but don't quote me on that. But the song was modified extensively from demo to final product. I'm assuming it's sort of how the Mindcrime II song, "One Foot in Hell" was modified from this bluesy tune, to a more hard rock/metal song. That tune was written by Stone, and modified heavily by Slater.

[Grappler]

He did, but according to Parker, Wilton and La Torre, what Parker wrote, and what the song became are totally different. They didn't explain how, but the song was put through the paces to become a "Queensryche" song. I think Wilton altered the arrangement and Todd changed some lyrics, but don't quote me on that. But the song was modified extensively from demo to final product. I'm assuming it's sort of how the Mindcrime II song, "One Foot in Hell" was modified from this bluesy tune, to a more hard rock/metal song. That tune was written by Stone, and modified heavily by Slater.

Remember the s/t demos that were released on youtube?   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNP_jR0McuU

That first snippet that kicks in at 0:17 (I'll take you there, where castles built will fall) is the original demo of Where Dreams Go to Die, which was more of a speed/power metal song with higher vocals.  Compared to the album version, it's night and day.

[PowerSlave]

He did, but according to Parker, Wilton and La Torre, what Parker wrote, and what the song became are totally different. They didn't explain how, but the song was put through the paces to become a "Queensryche" song. I think Wilton altered the arrangement and Todd changed some lyrics, but don't quote me on that. But the song was modified extensively from demo to final product. I'm assuming it's sort of how the Mindcrime II song, "One Foot in Hell" was modified from this bluesy tune, to a more hard rock/metal song. That tune was written by Stone, and modified heavily by Slater.

Remember the s/t demos that were released on youtube?   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNP_jR0McuU

That first snippet that kicks in at 0:17 (I'll take you there, where castles built will fall) is the original demo of Where Dreams Go to Die, which was more of a speed/power metal song with higher vocals.  Compared to the album version, it's night and day.

I think that those demos might have had better production value than the album itself. That's been my only real issue with that album. Performance wise, it's great!

[TAC]

So, one of the presents Santa brought me was a copy of Storming Detroit. Even though I was hoping for a bit better quality, once my ears got used to it, it is excellent. What an awesome era for Queensryche. It will forever be my favorite.

Just got me thinking...I first heard Queen Of The Reich when I was 13 or 14. At that age and time, I had pretty much established my "musical base" and Queensryche would be one of the first "new" bands that I would discover. I had the EP even before Warning was released. I thought their take on Metal was so fresh and original. It had a grandiosity about it that was so interesting. It was metal, but it was more than that.
Warning (and the EP) is one of those handful of albums that really transports me back in time.

And is there a better album for air drumming than Warning? Scott Rockenfield was awesome. I loved his style.

[jjrock88]

I've been tempted to buy that Storming Detroit cd for awhile, but I knew it wasn't an official band release and figured it would just be bootleg quality.  The setlist is outstanding though.

[PowerSlave]

So, one of the presents Santa brought me was a copy of Storming Detroit. Even though I was hoping for a bit better quality, once my ears got used to it, it is excellent.

I've never heard of this. I looked it up to get a general idea of what you were talking about. Is it a bootleg? The setlist (from memory) looks a lot like the Tokyo show that was released with the remaster of the EP. Is the Detroit show a better performance?

[TAC]

I've been tempted to buy that Storming Detroit cd for awhile, but I knew it wasn't an official band release and figured it would just be bootleg quality.  The setlist is outstanding though.

JJ I think it's a must buy. I had honestly never even heard of it until Brian posted it in the Album thread a few weeks ago. I think I had it on boot years ago, but it is pretty well cleaned up.
Yes, the setlist is awesome. I'm loving it.

I also got Rainbow's Boston 1981 and the quality on that is spectacular.

I've never heard of this. I looked it up to get a general idea of what you were talking about. Is it a bootleg? The setlist (from memory) looks a lot like the Tokyo show that was released with the remaster of the EP. Is the Detroit show a better performance?

I'm not sure, I don't have that EP Remaster. I'll have to look that up for myself. Amazon lists Storming Detroit.
Is it a bootleg, no. It sounds like a pre FM recording. Not nearly as good as the Rainbow, but definitely worth the purchase.

Looking at the EP Remaster, Storming Detroit has NM 156 and Roads To Madness. Not sure if the EP Remaster is a complete show. I probably wouldn't get it if it wasn't.

[PowerSlave]

I've been tempted to buy that Storming Detroit cd for awhile, but I knew it wasn't an official band release and figured it would just be bootleg quality.  The setlist is outstanding though.

JJ I think it's a must buy. I had honestly never even heard of it until Brian posted it in the Album thread a few weeks ago. I think I had it on boot years ago, but it is pretty well cleaned up.
Yes, the setlist is awesome. I'm loving it.

I also got Rainbow's Boston 1981 and the quality on that is spectacular.

I've never heard of this. I looked it up to get a general idea of what you were talking about. Is it a bootleg? The setlist (from memory) looks a lot like the Tokyo show that was released with the remaster of the EP. Is the Detroit show a better performance?

I'm not sure, I don't have that EP Remaster. I'll have to look that up for myself. Amazon lists Storming Detroit.
Is it a bootleg, no. It sounds like a pre FM recording. Not nearly as good as the Rainbow, but definitely worth the purchase.

Looking at the EP Remaster, Storming Detroit has NM 156 and Roads To Madness. Not sure if the EP Remaster is a complete show. I probably wouldn't get it if it wasn't.

I'm pretty sure that it's a complete show. If you remember the video for Take Hold of the Flame, I'm pretty sure that the footage was taken from that Tokyo show. It was released on video at the time ect. ect...