Author Topic: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse  (Read 10777 times)

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Offline Ħ

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So, I have to say for the most part that I don't change my mind that often in terms of what I like and what I dislike.  But these two albums have been kind of an anomoly for me. 

I used to HATE Systematic Chaos with a passion....I thought it was devoid of all creativity, that it was just an instrumental snoozefest, and I rarely ever listen to it.  But after checking it out again...it's really not that bad.  Sure, it is the second longest album or something, the flow is a bit poor, but I can't bring myself to dislike any of the songs (except POW).  Forsaken, TDEN, and TMOLS used to be very low in my ranking, but now I am getting kinda into them.  :lol

On the other side of the coin, BCASL is rapidly going downhill for me.  When I first got the album, I loved it.  It was probably a top 5 album for me.  But now it really doesn't impress me.  There are awesome moment in almost every song, but it seems like there is just so much filler that is weighing it down.  Everyone is familiar with the common gripes about ANTR and AROP's solo spots, but I think ACOT has that problem too!  Someone made a thead that the first and last three minutes of ACOT are mindblowing, and, while I have to agree, the rest is just not that impressive.

So at this point in time, SC is probably number 7 or 8 and BCSL is probably 8 or 9, depending on how I feel about Octavarium (WDADU is last).  But yeah, I'm kind of surprised with how these albums are evolving for me.

What do you guys think?
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Offline JayOctavarium

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 05:51:08 PM »
2009: BCSL > Systematic Chaos

2011: Systematic Chaos > BCSL


nuff said
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 06:00:44 PM »
I think SC may always be DT's second worst album.

Offline YtseBitsySpider

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 06:07:59 PM »
I think SC may always be DT's second worst album.

Close....the worst.
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Offline FlyingBIZKIT

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 06:10:18 PM »
2009: BCSL > Systematic Chaos

2011: BCSL > Systematic Chaos


nuff said

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 06:17:40 PM »
I think SC may always be DT's second worst album.

Close....the worst.

You'll hate me since I literally just read your rank WDADU in your top 3, but...WDADU is last.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 06:21:47 PM »
Yeah, Systematic Chaos was underwhelming at first, but it hasn't aged poorly. If anything, its little quirks have become its defining characteristics and it's a cool little album, whereas Black Clouds seems a bit faceless in retrospect (though TCoT is, of course, a DT classic).

For me, Train of Thought ---> Black Clouds represent an incredibly average run of DT albums. None suck, and yet none have more than one or two (usually epic-length) tracks that I really care for. And each are basically interchangeable in my rankings-- after my top 4 (SDOIT, SFAM, I&W, Awake) and my rotating 5 and 6 (FII, WDADU), these four records make up my 7-10 in basically any order, depending on the day.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 06:21:57 PM »
2009: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos

2011: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos


nuff said
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Online Adami

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 06:22:58 PM »
2009: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos

2011: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos


nuff said


This is very true. SC is just a lame album to me, I don't think I'll ever rank it above last.
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Offline dongringo

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 06:34:38 PM »
I understand what has come over the OP, as I had the exact same experience today with TOT. I never got into TOT, just never did...until today. Now I can't stop listening to it. It's like a brand new DT album to me. Funny how the brains comprehension of a band's music can change with time.
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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 06:38:24 PM »
I think SC may always be DT's second worst album.

Close....the worst.

You'll hate me since I literally just read your rank WDADU in your top 3, but...WDADU is last.

It happens. It was my first introduction to the band. I still love it. But I get it if it wasn't your first intro to the band.
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Offline wolfking

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 06:41:45 PM »
2009: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos

2011: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos


nuff said


This is very true. SC is just a lame album to me, I don't think I'll ever rank it above last.
Everyone else, except Wolfking is wrong.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 06:52:59 PM »
I always prefered Systematic Chaos to Black Clouds. It's like comparing watermelon to beats. One is sweet and juicy, the other one is healthy, but makes your pee orange.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 06:53:33 PM »
wut
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline composure77

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 06:54:48 PM »
I just find the riff in TDEN to be annoying, aside from the shred-fest late in the song.

But other than that I love SC, TMOLS is one of my favorite DT songs

Offline Zook

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 06:56:41 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies


Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2011, 06:58:22 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies



That would be one amazing album. I don't know if I'd open it with The Shattered Fortress, though.
"How's that for a slice of fried gold?"

Offline composure77

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 07:01:27 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies



That would be one amazing album. I don't know if I'd open it with The Shattered Fortress, though.


why not just add another track and split ITPOE like it is on SC?!?!

INTPOE part 1 is my favorite album opener

Offline Zook

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 07:01:33 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies



That would be one amazing album. I don't know if I'd open it with The Shattered Fortress, though.

Yeah I wasn't sure about that either. Would TDEN's fade out into TSF's fade in be good, you think and open with Constant Motion?

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 07:03:19 PM »
Chaotic Clouds And Silver Systems

1. In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 1
2. ANTR intro/Beautiful Agony/TBOT solo (make it work, DT)
3. Constant Motion
4. Wither
5. Repentance
6. The Shattered Fortress
7. The Count of Tuscany

B-Sides

The Dark Eternal Night
A Rite of Passage

Offline Zook

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2011, 07:03:38 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies



That would be one amazing album. I don't know if I'd open it with The Shattered Fortress, though.


why not just add another track and split ITPOE like it is on SC?!?!

INTPOE part 1 is my favorite album opener

Because the transition from TCoT to ITPoE Part 2 would be awful.

Offline composure77

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2011, 07:04:16 PM »
Chaotic Clouds And Systematic Linings

1. In The Presence of Enemies Pt. 1
2. ANTR intro/Beautiful Agony/TBOT solo (make it work, DT)
3. Constant Motion
4. Wither
5. Repentance
6. The Shattered Fortress
7. The Count of Tuscany

B-Sides

The Dark Eternal Night
A Rite of Passage

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2011, 07:05:00 PM »
I changed the name to counterpoint Zook.

Offline TheGreatPretender

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2011, 07:05:09 PM »
Actually, I can see the album opening with The Shattered Fortress as long as it starts right away like the instrumental, rather than fading it in. Fading it in would be a weak way to start an album, but if they just boom, started the music, then it could work as an opener.
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Offline composure77

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2011, 07:05:28 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies



That would be one amazing album. I don't know if I'd open it with The Shattered Fortress, though.


why not just add another track and split ITPOE like it is on SC?!?!

INTPOE part 1 is my favorite album opener

Because the transition from TCoT to ITPoE Part 2 would be awful.

nothing wrong with a 25 minute album opener  :tup

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2011, 07:08:45 PM »
Black Chaos & Systematic Linings

1. The Shattered Fortress
2. Constant Motion
3. The Dark Eternal Night
4. Forsaken
5. The Count of Tuscany
6. In The Presence of Enemies



That would be one amazing album. I don't know if I'd open it with The Shattered Fortress, though.


why not just add another track and split ITPOE like it is on SC?!?!

INTPOE part 1 is my favorite album opener

Because the transition from TCoT to ITPoE Part 2 would be awful.

nothing wrong with a 25 minute album opener  :tup

I probably wouldn't complain, but thinking like a producer, it wouldn't be a good move for the casual listener.

Offline j

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2011, 07:20:51 PM »
On the other side of the coin, BCASL is rapidly going downhill for me.  When I first got the album, I loved it.  It was probably a top 5 album for me.  But now it really doesn't impress me.  There are awesome moment in almost every song, but it seems like there is just so much filler that is weighing it down.  Everyone is familiar with the common gripes about ANTR and AROP's solo spots, but I think ACOT has that problem too!  Someone made a thead that the first and last three minutes of ACOT are mindblowing, and, while I have to agree, the rest is just not that impressive.

I completely agree.  Each song has things about it that I like, but they're relatively few compared to the stuff I don't care for.

However, SC, Octavarium, and Train of Thought suffer from this same problem for the most part.  And strangely, they all have about the same ratio of good to bad.

Quote
So at this point in time, SC is probably number 7 or 8 and BCSL is probably 8 or 9, depending on how I feel about Octavarium (WDADU is last).  But yeah, I'm kind of surprised with how these albums are evolving for me.

Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums. :hat

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Offline 7thHanyou

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2011, 07:29:16 PM »
Listen to WDADU more, and you may learn that it is actually better than all of DT's four most recent albums. :hat

-J

Absolutely.

Personally, I can listen to these two albums, but they're mostly background noise to me.  Systematic Chaos is slightly better since there are some great parts.

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2011, 07:33:32 PM »
I've been kicking around the tracklisting for a hypothetical Black Clouds/Systematic Chaos combo album for awhile. Best I've come up with, without altering or editing any existing songs, is:

1. In The Presence Of Enemies, Pt. 1
2. Forsaken
3. Constant Motion
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. Repentance
6. Wither
7. In The Presence Of Enemies, Pt. 2

Comes to about 73 minutes, and flows pretty well too. Having a long epic like TCOT right in the middle could be a bit WTF I guess, but then again, Awake did the same thing with AMBI. Repentance and Wither are nice breathers afterwards, and I always enjoyed ITPOEpt2.

As for the leftover tracks.... I dunno. The Dark Eternal Night has cringeworthy verses, but I enjoy the rest of it. ANTR has Beautiful Agony, and a cool intro, everything else I don't really care for. The Ministry Of Lost Souls would make a cool Lifting Shadows-type song if you extracted the instrumental. Prophets Of War is basically fine, just a bit uninspired. The Shattered Fortress, The Best Of Times, A Rite Of Passage.... Gah, they're all over the place. I don't even know where you'd begin editing all that down.

I would honestly just scrap all these songs entirely (along with Raw Dog.... Fun song, but there's potential for a bit more there), extract the cool parts, and go back to the drawing board. Make entirely new songs, and put together a new album. It worked for Metallica when they were making Death Magnetic, after all (We still like Death Magnetic, right?). I'm sure if some more time were spent in the arrangement department, some really cool stuff could come from it.

Then again, from the looks of things, they apparently just did this with ADTOE (hopefully!). We'll see.

Offline wammabe

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2011, 07:59:46 PM »
Back when I was a complete DT n00b, Systematic Chaos was one of my favorite DT albums(Back when I was into more commercial stuff), after listening to all other DT albums with an open mind, it became one of my least favorite albums. But after a while, it's been growing on me again. The problem with Black Clouds and Silver Linings for me is that it has 6 songs and I only truly care for 3 of them, it feels like an EP.

Offline Metropolis Pt. II

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2011, 08:26:31 PM »
2009: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos

2011: BCSL >>>>> Systematic Chaos


nuff said


Offline Metabog

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2011, 08:30:34 PM »
I agree with you, pretty much. I would place SC above Black Clouds, probably in third-to-last place after WDaDU and BCSL.

Offline Aniland

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2011, 08:35:48 PM »
SC is one of the best albums ever, and Black Clouds is... LOL. Worst of the LaBrie days.

Offline pogoowner

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2011, 08:39:10 PM »
Systematic Chaos has aged incredibly poorly for me. Black Clouds on the other hand, while still not being particularly good, has grown on me a lot. In the end, Black Clouds > Systematic Chaos.

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Re: Systematic Chaos getting better, Black Clouds getting worse
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2011, 08:40:18 PM »
2009: BCSL < Systematic Chaos

2011: Systematic Chaos > BCSL


nuff said
fix'd
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