Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One

[orcus116]

Do you realize that those subtle references could have just as easily been retrofitted into the prequels? Just because he plucked some stuff that happened in the original trilogy and wrote some origins for them doesn't mean he had been thinking about it all along. The example you gave is kind of lame because we already find out that Darth Vader knows Obi Wan personally in that same movie. Plus Episode IV wasn't included in the opening credits because Lucas wasn't sure how big of a financial success Star Wars was going to be. It wasn't till Empire where they started playing with numbers.

[blackngold29]

You must be too young to have grown up with the original Star Wars tapes. Watching those dozens of times then seeing the Special Editions then seeing the prequels, well, it's a bit more understandable. And the 70s would have been the best time to make the prequels because his mindset would've been closer to the original trilogy. 20 years removed and your brain works in a completely different way.

I suppose that would make a difference, I watched all them as a kid on tape originally, but don't really remember anything until the SE theater re-release. I guess if Peter Jackson went back in 20 years and started messing with LotR I might resist; although even if he made it 3D with smell-o-vision, we still have the original cut to watch (just like SW).


It's really the people who bash Lucas for 'cashing in' when he releases stuff who anger me, because if it were up to him he never would've released the original cuts of the OT. If you don't want it, then don't buy it. But don't accuse him of changing things so he can make money (because he's got plenty) and that make it worse (because he's attempting to get closer to his original vision, like he said in that quote).

[Vivace]

Thank goodness he had the foresight to realize he couldn't make Episodes I - III in the '70s.

Why not? 

Also, I don't think the prequels were even a twinkle in Lucas' eye at that point.

Contrary to what people seem to want to believe he is a better visionary than most realize (or want to accept). He outlined the entire story, including the fall of Anakin and and major events of the prequels when he wrote the original trilogy. That's why there are subtle references like "A presence I haven't felt for a long time" and his wanting to put Episode IV on the opening scroll (which was fought and removed by the rest of the crew for fear it would confuse people). He realized that the technology didn't exist for him to create a convincing Coruscant or Naboo, but that the locations in the later part of the story were much more possible to pull off (the sandy planet or the icy/snowy planet). Obviously it was up in the air and the success of the movies weren't anticipated, but once the technology was invented he would go back and complete the first part of the story. The technology was satisfactory in the mid-1990s, so pulled out his yellow pad and #2 pencil in 1994 and started writing the prequels.

That's the entire reason that it started with Episode IV.

You really should watch the Red Letter Media stuff on the Prequels as it goes over in detail just how full of hot air Lucas is. After watching those videos I have concluded that what we got from the Original Trilogy was beyond luck. It's like scoring a royal flush. It's possible but not without some major turn of events with the cards and that's what happened with Lucas back in the 70's. He "had" vision, don't get me wrong, but in the case of Star Wars, what he originally wanted is not what we see however for the most part Lucas's ideas are still present.

Case in point. His constant re-tooling with who shoots first. Adding back the Jabba scene when it reality it doesn't need to be there. He's just repeats the same lines he said in the Cantina and it makes Jabba to be a push-over. Adding in filler junk when the pace was already perfect. He honestly NEEDS a "no" man sitting next to him to tell him, "Look! You're a bright innovative guy but you honestly cannot write, direct, nor edit a movie." Lawrence Kasden showed us all how Star Wars was to be done. Seriously. Watch Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back one after another. Take note at just how "different" both movies feel. Another perfect example is something RLM brought up. Take a look at Return of the Jedi when Luke is brought to the Emperor and then look at Revenge of the Sith when Anakin and Obi Wan enter the bridge and find Palpatine in the chair. Practically the same shot but Return of the Jedi is hands down a better directed shot.

I honestly believe the man simply doesn't trust his own instincts and he second guesses himself constantly. He may never show this publically but I honestly think he does this internally. It shows in the prequels and it showed in the Special Editions

[blackngold29]

Do you realize that those subtle references could have just as easily been retrofitted into the prequels? Just because he plucked some stuff that happened in the original trilogy and wrote some origins for them doesn't mean he had been thinking about it all along. The example you gave is kind of lame because we already find out that Darth Vader knows Obi Wan personally in that same movie. Plus Episode IV wasn't included in the opening credits because Lucas wasn't sure how big of a financial success Star Wars was going to be. It wasn't till Empire where they started playing with numbers.

The example I gave is when Obi-Wan gets on the Death Star for the first time, when they go to fight it's obvious they've met before prior to the movie. And I'm certain that Lucas fought to put Episode IV in the original cut; I want to say Empire of Dreams say that, but I'm not certain.

I never said he wrote the whole script of I-III and that he knew Vader built C-3PO, but I'm absolutely certain that that is the reason he started in the middle of the series.

[orcus116]

The example I gave is when Obi-Wan gets on the Death Star for the first time, when they go to fight it's obvious they've met before prior to the movie.

It's really not that uncommon for a movie to have characters that have history beyond when you first see them interact. That has nothing to do with Lucas, it's a common storytelling technique.

[Vivace]

I was thinking about that quote from Lucas about how he seemed to think he was pulled away from the Star Wars movies kicking and screaming that they were not finished. I'm a bit confused. What wasn't "finished" to him. Let's look at the Special Edition changes to find out.

Was it the special effects? Well in the 70's computer animation was at such an infancy I seriously doubt Lucas had any idea of what we would be able to do 20 years in the future. I think when the technology came Lucas then started to realize his movie wasn't done and that it should be "redone" using modern technology. That's not being pulled away from the movie kicking and screaming. That's pulling a Howard Hughes and reshooting a movie for sound. Once he saw innovation, he wanted that in his movie and at that time declared his works unfinished.

Was it the scenes he added? Well having Greedo shoot first has been explained agnosium that I think everyone knows why this is a stupid rewrite. The Jabba scene I explained was already duplicated dialogue and the extra scenes showing the expanse as Mos Eisley did nothing to move the movie forward, it was just a 1 minute "look at me! look at me!" demo reel of SoftImage. Now the Jabba scene was already shot, so that certainly didn't go unfinished unless he knew what he wanted Jabba to look like but couldn't afford it or produce it at the time. Regardless, the scene is unnecessary even if Lucas did want a creature and not a man. The edit is justified outside any other reason. Extra shots of Mos Eisley would have been nice but what necessity does it serve? To show us how big the space port is? I think we get the idea over the course of time they spend on Mos Eisley which a better use of time rather than waste our time with minutes of nothing and the speeder racing by. Also if he really wanted Jabba in there, then why not clean up the scene at Toshi Station with Biggs? THAT was a more important scene then Han with Jabba. It established who this Biggs character is and why suddenly the movie wanted us to care about him during the battle scene. So why not clean that one up? Oh yeah... it's not a CGI monster scene where people can salivate over a badly rendered Jabba the Hutt that looked so much better in Return of the Jedi. I'm surprised he didn't replace the Jabba in Return of the Jedi with a CGI version. Thank God someone stopped him.

Did he not like the Catina scene and wanted a variety of other creatures? Um... I didn't see a problem there. How could anyone foresee such a problem?

Again Lucas only wanted to make the Special Editions because he "saw" the technology and went "Holy crap! I want Star Wars to look like this!". I argue he was pulled away kicking and screaming from Star Wars because he wasn't getting what he wanted. Things started to fail, production went over budget and producers were starting to get worried. In the end, the quote he said early in his career, "special effect complement a story, they are not the story" took a back seat when he saw the technology and that is what he added. Granted a lot of the effects DID complement the story in the Special Editions but their were too many examples of where the effects started to take the front seat; a prelude to things to come.

[Summers]

I agree... I always loved the deleted Biggs scene, although I guess they do add more substance to Biggs at the end of the film with the scene before they take off.  Still, that scene would also have made a hell of a lot more sense with the prior scene as well. 

The Jabba scene is terrible, I guess it's kind of a geek moment for SW fans to see Jabba in ANH apart from him looking so badly rendered as you say, but I think it aversely affects the film and the whole trilogy for someone who is viewing them for the first time.  There is a huge enigma surrounding Jabba and his threats to Han until we finally see him in RotJ.  It's actually quite chilling sometimes, but totally ruined because we see some goofy looking CGI slug thingy who is made to look like an idiot by Han. 

[GuineaPig]

Do you realize that those subtle references could have just as easily been retrofitted into the prequels? Just because he plucked some stuff that happened in the original trilogy and wrote some origins for them doesn't mean he had been thinking about it all along. The example you gave is kind of lame because we already find out that Darth Vader knows Obi Wan personally in that same movie. Plus Episode IV wasn't included in the opening credits because Lucas wasn't sure how big of a financial success Star Wars was going to be. It wasn't till Empire where they started playing with numbers.

The example I gave is when Obi-Wan gets on the Death Star for the first time, when they go to fight it's obvious they've met before prior to the movie. And I'm certain that Lucas fought to put Episode IV in the original cut; I want to say Empire of Dreams say that, but I'm not certain.

I never said he wrote the whole script of I-III and that he knew Vader built C-3PO, but I'm absolutely certain that that is the reason he started in the middle of the series.

I guess it would take more of a Star Wars historian to know this, but I was always under the impression that all he wrote was Star Wars and a bit of The Empire Strikes Back initially.  I thought he just started at IV to imitate the serials it was based on and to give the impression of a larger, ongoing story.

[Super Dude]

According to Wikipedia, he hadn't even written ESB, but I dunno if that's true.

[blackngold29]

He had a loose outline of the entire thing (From Episode I to VI) at the very beginning. Lots of things were different and open or later changed, the point is it was there and he was aware he was starting in the middle. He probably didn't have an ESB script, because with no guarantee that it would be made it wouldn't make sense to write it out in that much detail. If you read Droidmaker they talk a lot about those early days.

[orcus116]

A friend of mine raised a good point about the prequels. It's incredibly hard to envision the Anakin you see in those movies as Darth Vader. The two characters are entirely different. It was almost like watching a parody version of the backstory you kinda sorta knew if you were somewhat into Star Wars (mostly just the Obi-Wan lava fight).

[TL]

I guess it would take more of a Star Wars historian to know this, but I was always under the impression that all he wrote was Star Wars and a bit of The Empire Strikes Back initially.  I thought he just started at IV to imitate the serials it was based on and to give the impression of a larger, ongoing story.

I'm pretty sure this, or something close to it, was the case. He wrote the first movie, but it was way too long, so he cut it up and the first part of the script became the first film.

Also, after the success of the first film, he planned to basically farm out 11 sequels to fund his ranch and other projects. That's why Empire was directed and largely written by other people. He scaled it back to two sequels when he realized that he still had to be really involved in the production of the films, and when he saw how much work it would actually take to make each one.
He got a bit more involved with ROTJ because, for reasons no one will ever understand, he didn't like how ESB turned out. He actually tried re-editing it at one point, but when others on the project saw his edit, they flat out turned it down.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

A friend of mine raised a good point about the prequels. It's incredibly hard to envision the Anakin you see in those movies as Darth Vader. The two characters are entirely different. It was almost like watching a parody version of the backstory you kinda sorta knew if you were somewhat into Star Wars (mostly just the Obi-Wan lava fight).

This is a huge problem, no doubt.

But, thankfully, it also makes it so when you watch A New Hope, all the characters are so different you make no connection to the prequels. It's like they never existed.

[Vivace]

A friend of mine raised a good point about the prequels. It's incredibly hard to envision the Anakin you see in those movies as Darth Vader. The two characters are entirely different. It was almost like watching a parody version of the backstory you kinda sorta knew if you were somewhat into Star Wars (mostly just the Obi-Wan lava fight).

This is a huge problem, no doubt.

But, thankfully, it also makes it so when you watch A New Hope, all the characters are so different you make no connection to the prequels. It's like they never existed.

What prequels?

[Voyage 34]

A friend of mine raised a good point about the prequels. It's incredibly hard to envision the Anakin you see in those movies as Darth Vader. The two characters are entirely different. It was almost like watching a parody version of the backstory you kinda sorta knew if you were somewhat into Star Wars (mostly just the Obi-Wan lava fight).

This is a huge problem, no doubt.

But, thankfully, it also makes it so when you watch A New Hope, all the characters are so different you make no connection to the prequels. It's like they never existed.

It's not just the characters. It's the tone and feel too. There's nothing aside from names to associate Star Wars and those video game cut scenes.

[Implode]

It's not just the characters. It's the tone and feel too. There's nothing aside from names to associate Star Wars and those video game cut scenes.

I feel as if you just made the same post in the Tron thread. 

[Voyage 34]

It's not just the characters. It's the tone and feel too. There's nothing aside from names to associate Star Wars and those video game cut scenes.

I feel as if you just made the same post in the Tron thread. 

You're right I totally did, and I fully admit it. These movies suffer from a lot of the same things. I can at least see myself watching Tron Legacy again, but I'll never watch the prequels again.

[bosk1]

As I recall the story, Lucas had written a basic story outline for the story that encompassed the OT, the prequels, and possibly what was going to be the sequel trilogy before he scrapped the idea.  He was writing it as one movie, and quickly realized there was just no way he could cram it all in.  He decided to start at what would become Ep. IV, not because he had the OT completely fleshed out and knew what he wanted to do with it, but because space movies weren't selling at all at the time, and he figured if it took the most likely route and only ended up being a single move, the Ep. IV story was the most self-contained and could easily work.  It is pretty obvious when watching some of the documentaries on that era that he had the general, big pieced of the story in place, but figured out most of the details way later as he was going along.

That being said, none of that is really relevant.  The fact of the matter is that, whether Lucas created Ep. IV in a complete vaccuum, had all nine movies completely written beforehand, or something in between, when he did the SE's and the prequels, he unfortunately ruined a lot of what he had previously created.  Whatever his motivations were, he hurt his reputation and the inegrity of the stories he created.  That's really all that matters.

[orcus116]

I really want to watch The People Vs George Lucas whenever it's available. I'm pretty sure it taps into a lot of this.

[zepp-head]

The fact of the matter is that, whether Lucas created Ep. IV in a complete vaccuum, had all nine movies completely written beforehand, or something in between, when he did the SE's and the prequels, he unfortunately ruined a lot of what he had previously created.  Whatever his motivations were, he hurt his reputation and the inegrity of the stories he created.  That's really all that matters.

You sound like Steven Wilson.  Perhaps you can apologize for this comment in "Repentance 2".

[Scurvy!Dreams]

You sound like Steven Wilson.  Perhaps you can apologize for this comment in "Repentance 2".

Are you actually arguing that George Lucas's reputation isn't worse than it was 15 years ago?

Or did you just really, really want to make a Dream Theater joke?

[ZBomber]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCTyMOL1zbA

That commercial (maybe not that one specifically, but one with C-3PO and R2-D2 on Nickelodeon back in early 97) was one of the first times I even HEARD about Star Wars. I still remember it. I saw the commercial and immediately asked my parents if we could go see it.

[TimmyHiggy]

I have come forth once more to bring you hot girls in star wars clothes:




EDIT:found another

[Implode]

She could lose the Alan Rickman as Snape hair.

[TimmyHiggy]

It does kinda look like the basic DV helmet shape though...

[Implode]

Hmmm. Well I guess I'd find the actual helmet (without the mask part) sexier than the hair. 

[MetalManiac666]

Still, dem bewbies.

[Gadough]

Noob question ahoy!:

In the first few minutes of A New Hope, some dude tells Vader that Leia's capture may generate sympathy for the rebellion in the Senate. I thought the Senate was completely dissolved when the Empire gained control. Besides, even if there is a standing Senate, why would the Empire consider them a threat?

[Adami]

Noob question ahoy!:

In the first few minutes of A New Hope, some dude tells Vader that Leia's capture may generate sympathy for the rebellion in the Senate. I thought the Senate was completely dissolved when the Empire gained control. Besides, even if there is a standing Senate, why would the Empire consider them a threat?

There's a scene a little later in that movie where they mention that the senate had JUST been completely disolved. So when he said that about Leia, there was still a senate to an extent.

[Gadough]

So it took them 19 years to completely dissolve the Senate that had essentially lost any sort of power it had by the end of Episode III?

...That don't make no sense.

[orcus116]

It's called not having an editor.

[Adami]

It's called not having an editor.

Or a good writer, or a good director, or good actors (minus 2 or 3) or having good.......ok I'll stop there.

[TL]

Sure, you could blame Lucas for the script, or for doing... everything wrong...

[Vivace]

Sure, you could blame Lucas for the script, or for doing... everything wrong...

People can blame Lucas for most of it, but I also blame some of the execs for not having the brass balls to tell Lucas "its sucks".

[blackngold29]

Sure, you could blame Lucas for the script, or for doing... everything wrong...

People can blame Lucas for most of it, but I also blame some of the execs for not having the brass balls to tell Lucas "its sucks".

What Episode IV? It doesn't suck.

So the senate thing is a loophole, although I'd bet it's explored in some novel (though Lucas has never read one). The movie also ends because they shot fire balls up the Death Star's tail pipe, that screams originality and air-tight foolproofness.


People do blame Lucas for doing everything wrong, but they never give him credit for all the stuff he did right.