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Offline Ħ

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My problem with Christianity
« on: June 21, 2011, 03:40:56 PM »
So most of you probably think of me as a really stubborn Jesus fanboy.  So maybe it is surprising to see that I have some doubts and am open to sharing them and discussing them.

I admit that I have never felt "on fire" for Jesus.  I cringe whenever I hear someone say "I felt God telling me to go to so-and-so university, to go speak to a stranger at a gas station, to move to Nashville, etc."  Basically, I have never loved God/Jesus the way I love my family and friends, or the way I percieve others to love God.  I mean, I'll say I love God, and I'll tell myself that I love God, but if I really am honest with it, I am sort of apathetic about it.

Maybe this is for the better, because it enables me to make a more rational decision than if my emotions anchored me into a corner (which I see in many cases where a person's religious/political/personal values are challenged).  When it comes to determining truth, the worst thing I can be is afraid to change my mind.

Recently, I have decided to take the quest for truth a little more seriously.  Before, it was just a hobby, and being a "Christian" was just another adjective to add to my Facebook profile.  It was just another team to support with little other reason than that I thought it was cool.  My Christian status was comparable to that of a Laker fan, or a Team Edward fan.  In my case, I was happy to be on Team Christian, as it instantly provided me with a means to connect with new people, and it gave me a sense of belonging.  But things like comfort and belonging are in no way truth-determining factors.

As I am growing as a thinker and a person, I have grown increasingly aware of the power of C.S. Lewis's famous quote: "Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, is of infinite importance.  The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."  Replace "Christianity" with "Truth", and you have the basis of where I'm coming from.  I don't want to die and learn that Allah is the one true God and that Islam is the truth, when I never even bothered to seek it out.  Or Hinduism, Bahá'í Faith, Atheism, whatever.  I don't want to be lazy here, and I'm willing to put a lot of work into it.  I am pretty fresh on this journey, and I am about halfway through The God Delusion, but I plan to expand on as many belief systems as I can.

All that said, I still think that Christianity holds the truth.  I think that there is more than ample evidence for Jesus' resurrection from the dead, which is extremely improbable if there is no supernatural force.  Since Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, performed miracles, and predicted the events that would surround his death and resurrection, I am extremely inclined to believe that if there is a door to the supernatural, Jesus is it.  He's the only link I can think of.  

However, in spite of historical evidence, scientific evidence steps in and blows a huge chunk of Christianity out of the water: the Old Testament.  We have great reason to believe that the Earth is billions of years old, and not 6000.  We have great reason to believe that all life stemmed from a single common ancestor, as opposed to each individual species being uniquely designed.

Not to mention, we have many contradictions throughout the Bible, which invalidate the Bible's claim to perfection.  We have no evidence for the existence of Abraham or Moses, or much of Israel's history outside of the Bible.  There are all sorts of issues you can uncover just by performing simple searches on the internet, or reading the Bible at face value without resorting to tricky interpretation when two passages don't match up.

Yet Jesus' resurrection still hits me square in the face.  Do I go against my own judgment and say "Well, even though I have every reason to distrust the Old Testament and much of the New Testament, I'm going to just believe the resurrected man anyway"?  Is that what Christians are called to do?

So....I guess that's where I'm "at".  Advice/questions/comments from believers, Christians, atheists, agnostics, and anyone else are welcome.  This is a big task for me, and I'm worried sick that I'm going to die and learn that I believed something false and have to pay for it.  To be honest, I'm not really scared about being wrong about theism, since death would be the same in a godless world whether I know the truth or not.  But I still want to be as honest and objective as I can, and if atheism holds the truth, then I hope I come to it.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 03:45:27 PM »
My initial reaction:  God hates Lakers fans.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Ħ

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 03:46:12 PM »
My initial reaction:  God hates Lakers fans.
That was not the post I was expecting from you, bosk.  :lol
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Bombardana

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 03:46:34 PM »
Good post Ħ
I'm curious about one thing, what do you see as the evidence for Jesus' resurrection from the dead? Thanks

Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 03:48:22 PM »
My initial reaction:  God hates Lakers fans.
That was not the post I was expecting from you, bosk.  :lol

:biggrin:  Well, you post some really deep stuff that is probably better for when we can just chat than just random Internet posting.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Ħ

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 03:51:40 PM »
My initial reaction:  God hates Lakers fans.
That was not the post I was expecting from you, bosk.  :lol

:biggrin:  Well, you post some really deep stuff that is probably better for when we can just chat than just random Internet posting.
Unless you take back your comment about the Lakers, you can consider this relationship over.  :loser:
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline juice

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2011, 03:51:55 PM »
My initial reaction:  God hates Lakers fans.

 >:(

Offline Ħ

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2011, 03:57:14 PM »
Good post Ħ
I'm curious about one thing, what do you see as the evidence for Jesus' resurrection from the dead? Thanks
Basically stems from reliable historical records for his certain death on the cross, the empty tomb, and his post-resurrection appearances.  This isn't exactly what the thread is about but I think we've discussed it in a lot more detail in p/r.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2011, 04:49:30 PM »
I have grown increasingly aware of the power of C.S. Lewis's famous quote: "Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, is of infinite importance.  The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

That statement, and Pascal's Wager, I find personally very worrisome, because it belittles the damage of living one's life under erroneous assumptions and acting on them.
The human mind is the ultimate measure for a lot of aspects in life, and treating it so deferential ("Pfft, what's the damage if I fooled myself for my whole life?!") puts people, IMHO, into a nasty mindset.

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Offline D_Halco

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2011, 04:55:07 PM »
"On Fire for Jesus", when adoration and immolation are one in the same.

Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2011, 05:00:24 PM »
My initial reaction:  God hates Lakers fans.
That was not the post I was expecting from you, bosk.  :lol

:biggrin:  Well, you post some really deep stuff that is probably better for when we can just chat than just random Internet posting.
Unless you take back your comment about the Lakers, you can consider this relationship over.  :loser:

Well, but really:  www.godhateslakerfans.com


But seriously, as I have discovered is usually the case with you, you ask deep questions. I think a lot of the things you are questioning or having difficulty with can actually be answered.  For instance, the "contradictions" you mention.  In my years of study, I can only really think of a sum total of ONE contradiction I have never really heard an adequate explanation for, and it isn't in the Old Testament.  But in any case, I think this is probably a good topic for SS, dontcha think?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline William Wallace

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2011, 05:44:40 PM »
Quote
...or much of Israel's history outside of the Bible.
K.A. Kitchen makes this argument his bitch in this book.

Get a copy - or I'd be glad to get one for you.

Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2011, 05:49:08 PM »
Quote
...or much of Israel's history outside of the Bible.
K.A. Kitchen makes this argument his bitch in this book.

Get a copy - or I'd be glad to get one for you.

So do others.  But if that's the book I recall, he really does a good job.  I need to get a copy of that myself.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline William Wallace

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2011, 06:03:29 PM »
Quote
...or much of Israel's history outside of the Bible.
K.A. Kitchen makes this argument his bitch in this book.

Get a copy - or I'd be glad to get one for you.

So do others.  But if that's the book I recall, he really does a good job.  I need to get a copy of that myself.
Professors of Egyptology ftw.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2011, 08:37:28 PM »
I love your spirit, H.  I went through a very similar time frame in my early days (though I still find myself going thru similar periods on a smaller scale).  And it was because I went through the period of challenging what I believed that I am able to be as convicted as I am now.  The thing that really pushed me over the edge was the fulfillment of messianic prophecies.  I strongly encourage you to continue your pursuit of truth and be prayerful about it along the way.

Offline rumborak

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2011, 08:50:33 PM »
Kinda of a side note, but it is truly amazing how two people can read the same information and arrive at diametrically opposed conclusions.

rumborak
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Offline Adami

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2011, 09:15:10 PM »
Those are very good questions Brother. I mostly suggest talking to Hef about it, since he seems to have made sense out of a similar mindset.


But my personal opinion would simply be to not make your faith rely on an infallible bible. If you truly believe in jesus, don't let the old testament get in your way. It's not an all or nothing deal, despite what others try to say. Your faith is what speaks to you, if the jewish bible doesn't speak to you, then don't become jewish, if Jesus speaks to you in that way, then find solace in that.
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Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2011, 10:09:29 PM »
I am about halfway through The God Delusion,

If you want to read real Atheist literature, that is a really poor place to start. I suggest reading the works of Nietzsche or Freud over the modern morons of Atheism.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2011, 10:44:25 PM »
I have grown increasingly aware of the power of C.S. Lewis's famous quote: "Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, is of infinite importance.  The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

That statement, and Pascal's Wager, I find personally very worrisome, because it belittles the damage of living one's life under erroneous assumptions and acting on them.
The human mind is the ultimate measure for a lot of aspects in life, and treating it so deferential ("Pfft, what's the damage if I fooled myself for my whole life?!") puts people, IMHO, into a nasty mindset.

rumborak
Can you simplify that a little more?  I am not sure what you are saying.

"On Fire for Jesus", when adoration and immolation are one in the same.
Yep, exactly what I'm afraid of becoming.

But seriously, as I have discovered is usually the case with you, you ask deep questions. I think a lot of the things you are questioning or having difficulty with can actually be answered.  For instance, the "contradictions" you mention.  In my years of study, I can only really think of a sum total of ONE contradiction I have never really heard an adequate explanation for, and it isn't in the Old Testament.  But in any case, I think this is probably a good topic for SS, dontcha think?
Thanks.  On SS, do you want to discuss contradictions or this process I'm going through?  And out of interest, what's the contradiction you have trouble with?

Quote
...or much of Israel's history outside of the Bible.
K.A. Kitchen makes this argument his bitch in this book.

Get a copy - or I'd be glad to get one for you.
Haha, thanks, I'll be sure to put it on the list.  :tup

I love your spirit, H.  I went through a very similar time frame in my early days (though I still find myself going thru similar periods on a smaller scale).  And it was because I went through the period of challenging what I believed that I am able to be as convicted as I am now.  The thing that really pushed me over the edge was the fulfillment of messianic prophecies.  I strongly encourage you to continue your pursuit of truth and be prayerful about it along the way.
Thanks, A.  I have a question for you (and others as well): do you ever reach a point where you "finalize" what you believe the truth to be?  Or is it a process?  For example, do you remain agnostic until one day, after you've read 100 pro-theist books and 100 pro-atheist books, then you sit down, put the books on the opposite sides of the scale, and say "Theism is the winner!", or is it a thing where you recalibrate your beliefs after each book you read?

Kinda of a side note, but it is truly amazing how two people can read the same information and arrive at diametrically opposed conclusions.
Yeah.  I don't know, but I suspect that if you took two people and fed them the same information (assuming they had no background information) and they came to different conclusions, it would be a difference in how they read it and organized the information.

Those are very good questions Brother. I mostly suggest talking to Hef about it, since he seems to have made sense out of a similar mindset.


But my personal opinion would simply be to not make your faith rely on an infallible bible. If you truly believe in jesus, don't let the old testament get in your way. It's not an all or nothing deal, despite what others try to say. Your faith is what speaks to you, if the jewish bible doesn't speak to you, then don't become jewish, if Jesus speaks to you in that way, then find solace in that.
Thanks Adami.  He does seem to have an honest mind and heart when it comes to deciding what to believe.  He usually posts in the mornings, so I'll look forward to his input if he sees this thread.  

I am a little afraid of being hypocritical by not being all-or-nothing, though, since I don't want to develop the habit of "picking and choosing" what parts of the Bible to believe.  Part of me says that if Jesus is definitively the Son of God and therefore perfect, then it would be wise for me to believe him in all matters historical and scientific, no matter how much other evidence is against it, such as his allusions to Adam, Eve, and the flood.  But part of me says that I ought not be so stubborn with an all-or-nothing mentality.

I am about halfway through The God Delusion,

If you want to read real Atheist literature, that is a really poor place to start. I suggest reading the works of Nietzsche or Freud over the modern morons of Atheism.
Yeah, I know now.  But I'm already pretty far so I'm just going to wrap it up.  At least I started somewhere.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline 73109

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2011, 11:00:27 PM »
Become a Buddhist.

Offline 73109

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 11:09:15 PM »
Or better yet, a Daoist. No religion, just a philosophy, and a rather groovy one at that.

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 11:14:53 PM »
Thanks, A.  I have a question for you (and others as well): do you ever reach a point where you "finalize" what you believe the truth to be?  Or is it a process?  For example, do you remain agnostic until one day, after you've read 100 pro-theist books and 100 pro-atheist books, then you sit down, put the books on the opposite sides of the scale, and say "Theism is the winner!", or is it a thing where you recalibrate your beliefs after each book you read?

I would say no, and that it is a process.  I believe wholeheartedly that I will meet my creator soon.  Until I have met him, though, I will still seek to be sure.  I think there is an aspect in Prov 30 where agur declares that he is stupid and knows nothing about God.  the minute that we think we have something figured out is the same minute that we just lost sight of it.

Offline j

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 02:20:44 AM »
Regardless of where your belief system has been or where it is going, much respect BrotherH for your candid honesty in the OP.  Genuine honesty is disturbingly rare among people of all faiths and non-faiths.

As for your questions, I think a lot of them are legitimate.  But there are Christians who do not necessarily hold to all of those beliefs (i.e. strict biblical inerrancy, etc).  And there are plenty of devout, *orthodox* Christians who will tell you that those emotional experiences people are always making a big deal out of range from fairly inconsequential to complete bullshit.  The list goes on.

But at any rate, your sincerely honest introspection and search for the "truth", whatever that may be, is seriously commendable IMO.  If there's a God and he approves of a single thing we humans are capable of, it would probably be that (from the book of J, 7:15).

-J

Offline AndyDT

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 03:06:28 AM »
So most of you probably think of me as a really stubborn Jesus fanboy.  So maybe it is surprising to see that I have some doubts and am open to sharing them and discussing them.

I admit that I have never felt "on fire" for Jesus.  I cringe whenever I hear someone say "I felt God telling me to go to so-and-so university, to go speak to a stranger at a gas station, to move to Nashville, etc."  Basically, I have never loved God/Jesus the way I love my family and friends, or the way I percieve others to love God.  I mean, I'll say I love God, and I'll tell myself that I love God, but if I really am honest with it, I am sort of apathetic about it.

Maybe this is for the better, because it enables me to make a more rational decision than if my emotions anchored me into a corner (which I see in many cases where a person's religious/political/personal values are challenged).  When it comes to determining truth, the worst thing I can be is afraid to change my mind.

Recently, I have decided to take the quest for truth a little more seriously.  Before, it was just a hobby, and being a "Christian" was just another adjective to add to my Facebook profile.  It was just another team to support with little other reason than that I thought it was cool.  My Christian status was comparable to that of a Laker fan, or a Team Edward fan.  In my case, I was happy to be on Team Christian, as it instantly provided me with a means to connect with new people, and it gave me a sense of belonging.  But things like comfort and belonging are in no way truth-determining factors.

As I am growing as a thinker and a person, I have grown increasingly aware of the power of C.S. Lewis's famous quote: "Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, is of infinite importance.  The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."  Replace "Christianity" with "Truth", and you have the basis of where I'm coming from.  I don't want to die and learn that Allah is the one true God and that Islam is the truth, when I never even bothered to seek it out.  Or Hinduism, Bahá'í Faith, Atheism, whatever.  I don't want to be lazy here, and I'm willing to put a lot of work into it.  I am pretty fresh on this journey, and I am about halfway through The God Delusion, but I plan to expand on as many belief systems as I can.

All that said, I still think that Christianity holds the truth.  I think that there is more than ample evidence for Jesus' resurrection from the dead, which is extremely improbable if there is no supernatural force.  Since Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, performed miracles, and predicted the events that would surround his death and resurrection, I am extremely inclined to believe that if there is a door to the supernatural, Jesus is it.  He's the only link I can think of.  
What evidence? Four books not written by the people they're ascribed to and apocryphal books written much later? Most scholars seem to agree that Jesus existed and was divisive but the supernatural stuff they're question because there isn't enough reliable evidence.

Quote

However, in spite of historical evidence, scientific evidence steps in and blows a huge chunk of Christianity out of the water: the Old Testament.  We have great reason to believe that the Earth is billions of years old, and not 6000.  We have great reason to believe that all life stemmed from a single common ancestor, as opposed to each individual species being uniquely designed.

Not to mention, we have many contradictions throughout the Bible, which invalidate the Bible's claim to perfection.  We have no evidence for the existence of Abraham or Moses, or much of Israel's history outside of the Bible.  There are all sorts of issues you can uncover just by performing simple searches on the internet, or reading the Bible at face value without resorting to tricky interpretation when two passages don't match up.

Yet Jesus' resurrection still hits me square in the face.  Do I go against my own judgment and say "Well, even though I have every reason to distrust the Old Testament and much of the New Testament, I'm going to just believe the resurrected man anyway"?  Is that what Christians are called to do?

I think so and you'll be under consistent pressure to say you believe whether you do or don't in my experience. tHat's not the pursuit of truth to my mind. It's like a logical consistency trap. People think you have to be consistent but the fact remains you don't - you're free to be agnostic or hopeful whenever you want.

Quote

So....I guess that's where I'm "at".  Advice/questions/comments from believers, Christians, atheists, agnostics, and anyone else are welcome.  This is a big task for me, and I'm worried sick that I'm going to die and learn that I believed something false and have to pay for it.  To be honest, I'm not really scared about being wrong about theism, since death would be the same in a godless world whether I know the truth or not.  But I still want to be as honest and objective as I can, and if atheism holds the truth, then I hope I come to it.
Bart Ehrman says that sections of books of the new testament are forgeries:

Quote
In his new book , Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are, Professor Ehrman claims The Second Epistle of Peter - or 2 Peter - was forged.

'...scholars everywhere - except for our friends among the fundamentalists - will tell you that there is no way on God's green earth that Peter wrote the book.

'Someone else wrote it claiming to be Peter,' he writes.

He then suggests scholars who say it was acceptable in the ancient world for someone to write a book in the name of someone else, are wrong.

'If you look at what ancient people actually said about the practice, you'll see that they invariably called it lying and condemned it as a deceitful practice, even in Christian circles,' Professor Ehrman writes.

Many scholars think six of the 13 letters allegedly written by Paul were actually authored by somebody else claiming to be Paul, Professor Ehrman claims.

Read more: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370206/Bart-D-Ehrman-Parts-Bibles-New-Testament-written-pretend-apostles.html#ixzz1Pzarlp5r


« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 03:12:34 AM by AndyDT »

Offline Rathma

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2011, 03:44:00 AM »
Why doesn't God change back all the languages he gave man at the Tower of Babel so the gospel could spread faster? :o

Offline lordxizor

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2011, 06:09:10 AM »
Best of luck to you in your search Ħ. I know exactly how you feel about the whole "on fire for Christ" thing. It's always seemed a bit phony to me, yet I somehow feel I'm missing out because I don't feel that way much of the time. There have been times in my life when I was certain that God exists and was beyond any doubt asking me or pushing me to do something. Then there are years on end where nothing really significant happens for me spiritually. I happen to be in one of those down points right now and they're always kind of difficult. But for me it's easy to think back on a year ago when I felt that my life was almost compltely out of my own hands and was simply following a path that God had layed out for me.

Anyway... I'm not a Biblical scholar, nor have I done anything more than a cursory exploration of other faiths, but I'm happy to chat over PM about this kind of stuff if you want to bounce something off someone.

Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2011, 07:13:04 AM »
H, Over the past few months I've really grown to like you. Please, for the love of God, don't go on fire for Jesus. People like that are so fake, annoying, and hazardously dangerous to themselves and those around them. I know people that are like that, and every day they become more and more self delusional, it's really a sad sight to see.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2011, 07:58:06 AM »
I have grown increasingly aware of the power of C.S. Lewis's famous quote: "Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, is of infinite importance.  The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

That statement, and Pascal's Wager, I find personally very worrisome, because it belittles the damage of living one's life under erroneous assumptions and acting on them.
The human mind is the ultimate measure for a lot of aspects in life, and treating it so deferential ("Pfft, what's the damage if I fooled myself for my whole life?!") puts people, IMHO, into a nasty mindset.

rumborak
Can you simplify that a little more?  I am not sure what you are saying.

Sorry for being convoluted :lol

What I was reacting to is that those statements always say that believing in XYZ when it isn't true, has no "cost" to it. Only the other way around, not believing when it *is* true is harmful since you wouldn't be going to heaven. I say there *is* cost to believing to XYZ when it isn't true, because a belief heavily influences your personality.
Let's say you come out on the side of complete biblical inerrancy. Well, look forward to leading a life of constantly battling, and being-at-odds with, objective truth (such as the Earth actually being millions of years old). The solution? Digging in your heels and declaring the rest of the world as deluded. And that kind of stance does a lot of damage to a person, IMHO. Which is why I don't like statements as CS Lewis' one and Pascal's Wager, both of which belittle the damage done to people by this effect.

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Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2011, 08:05:25 AM »
On SS, do you want to discuss contradictions or this process I'm going through?  

I don't know.  Either or both.  I think your initial post is a good starting point.

And out of interest, what's the contradiction you have trouble with?

The genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke.  I've never really heard a convincing explanation.  One of the most popular, that one of them is actually Jesus' genealogy through Mary and not Joseph, is very appealing because it makes sense that that genealogy would have been provided.  However, that one of them is through Mary isn't supported by the language.  There are quite a few explanations I have heard (and one or two I've come up with myself) that are completely plausible, but none convincing enough for me to easily say, "Yes, that's what must be true."
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Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2011, 08:16:31 AM »
The genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke.  I've never really heard a convincing explanation.  One of the most popular, that one of them is actually Jesus' genealogy through Mary and not Joseph, is very appealing because it makes sense that that genealogy would have been provided.  However, that one of them is through Mary isn't supported by the language.  There are quite a few explanations I have heard (and one or two I've come up with myself) that are completely plausible, but none convincing enough for me to easily say, "Yes, that's what must be true."

I always learned that Jesus' geneology is traced to Adam in Luke because Luke was writing for a Gentile audience (Adam is a Gentile) and Matthew traces Jesus to Abraham because he is writing for Jews (Abraham is the first Jew). Neither of them are true, but they both serve a purpose to make the targeted audience feel a connection to Jesus.
space cadet, pull out.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2011, 08:18:38 AM »
They both go through Abraham.  That's not what I meant.  I meant the fact that after you get to David in each of them, they each go in completely different directions after a couple of generations.  Or at least they appear to.
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Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2011, 08:19:46 AM »
Oh. I guess the answer is that it doesn't really matter. (At least I don't think so)

Quick Edit: To clarify that, I mean that I don't think the ultimate truth about Christianity rests on that issue.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2011, 08:31:36 AM »
Oh. I guess the answer is that it doesn't really matter. (At least I don't think so)

Quick Edit: To clarify that, I mean that I don't think the ultimate truth about Christianity rests on that issue.

For the most part, I agree.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2011, 09:51:48 AM »
They both go through Abraham.  That's not what I meant.  I meant the fact that after you get to David in each of them, they each go in completely different directions after a couple of generations.  Or at least they appear to.
I think it's because neither one of them really knew, so they just made something up.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: My problem with Christianity
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2011, 09:57:06 AM »
Realistically, how could anyone know? I doubt Joseph and Mary were keeping a genealogy, and if they didn't know, nobody could. Unless you are stipulating that either Luke or Matthew just "knew" this one day.

rumborak
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