Author Topic: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music  (Read 14425 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online ariich

  • Roulette Supervillain
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28047
  • Gender: Male
  • sexin' you later
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2011, 05:24:16 PM »
Also, as sad as it is to think, a listener who listents to your stuff for free and has never paid you anything is still better than no listener at all, like rob said.
Well, that is a matter of personal opinion. Some artists will feel that way (Devy in particular is very outspoken about it) but many others will not agree at all.

So if I steal a video game from a store, its better that I steal it and play it for free than not play it at all?  Cause I'll tell all my friends how great it is and maybe they will go buy it?
I'm not sure where the disagreement is here. Devy has explicitly stated that he doesn't mind people illegally downloading his music because he wants the music to reach as many people as possible. I'm not saying it's right in any way, just responding to the point that RuRoRul made.

Ariich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
I be am boner inducing.

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2011, 05:25:54 PM »
Prog fans in general are much more willing to buy the music because they have respect for music as art and all that.  But the general public nowadays would much rather just get everything for free.s.

Just stepping in to say this is complete BS.

Um how?  You think the general public would rather buy their music?  Then explain why album sales are down all around.  And also explain why now the industry has to remodel itself.  Its cause they have to compete with free.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Online ariich

  • Roulette Supervillain
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28047
  • Gender: Male
  • sexin' you later
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2011, 05:26:44 PM »
Prog fans in general are much more willing to buy the music because they have respect for music as art and all that.  But the general public nowadays would much rather just get everything for free.s.

Just stepping in to say this is complete BS.

Um how?  You think the general public would rather buy their music?  Then explain why album sales are down all around.
Everything sales are down. The global economy is in crisis. It's impossible to say whether downloading and/or streaming services have had an effect.

Ariich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
I be am boner inducing.

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2011, 05:27:26 PM »
Also, as sad as it is to think, a listener who listents to your stuff for free and has never paid you anything is still better than no listener at all, like rob said.
Well, that is a matter of personal opinion. Some artists will feel that way (Devy in particular is very outspoken about it) but many others will not agree at all.

So if I steal a video game from a store, its better that I steal it and play it for free than not play it at all?  Cause I'll tell all my friends how great it is and maybe they will go buy it?
I'm not sure where the disagreement is here. Devy has explicitly stated that he doesn't mind people illegally downloading his music because he wants the music to reach as many people as possible. I'm not saying it's right in any way, just responding to the point that RuRoRul made.

Sorry Ariich, I was quoting that for RuRo more than you.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline zxlkho

  • Official Dream Theater Hater.
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7666
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2011, 05:28:05 PM »
Prog fans in general are much more willing to buy the music because they have respect for music as art and all that.  But the general public nowadays would much rather just get everything for free.s.

Just stepping in to say this is complete BS.
I second the fact that this is BS
I AM A GUY
You're a fucking stupid bitch.
Orion....that's the one with a bunch of power chords and boringly harsh vocals, isn't it?

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »
Prog fans in general are much more willing to buy the music because they have respect for music as art and all that.  But the general public nowadays would much rather just get everything for free.s.

Just stepping in to say this is complete BS.

Um how?  You think the general public would rather buy their music?  Then explain why album sales are down all around.
Everything sales are down. The global economy is in crisis. It's impossible to say whether downloading and/or streaming services have had an effect.

Album sales were tanking before the economic crisis though.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2011, 05:28:38 PM »


 :lol

Even though I fall on the side of "downloading music illegally isn't *necessarily* unethical", I think any argument involving how much more money the band supposedly makes if you do X instead of Y is fundamentally missing the point.  If something is unethical, it's unethical regardless of whether the outcome ends up being beneficial to the wronged party.

-J

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2011, 05:29:00 PM »
Prog fans in general are much more willing to buy the music because they have respect for music as art and all that.  But the general public nowadays would much rather just get everything for free.s.

Just stepping in to say this is complete BS.
I second the fact that this is BS

Another post adding nothing to the debate.  Awesome.  Read my post and reply bitte.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Online ariich

  • Roulette Supervillain
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 28047
  • Gender: Male
  • sexin' you later
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2011, 05:31:24 PM »
Even though I fall on the side of "downloading music illegally isn't *necessarily* unethical", I think any argument involving how much more money the band supposedly makes if you do X instead of Y is fundamentally missing the point.  If something is unethical, it's unethical regardless of whether the outcome ends up being beneficial to the wronged party.
Completely agreed. Back in my uni days when I used to download, I did justify it on the basis that I was still spending as much as I could reasonably afford on CDs. But ultimately you realise that one way or the other, it's still stealing, and is by it's nature unethical. So now I pay for the premium version of Spotify and get to discover a ton of stuff on there, and for everything else I buy CDs or legal digital downloads.

EDIT: HOWEVER, on the actual topic of this thread, legal streaming services I have no problem with whatsoever, and I think they are a great way to discover new music.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 05:36:57 PM by ariich »

Ariich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
I be am boner inducing.

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2011, 05:37:41 PM »
Even though I fall on the side of "downloading music illegally isn't *necessarily* unethical", I think any argument involving how much more money the band supposedly makes if you do X instead of Y is fundamentally missing the point.  If something is unethical, it's unethical regardless of whether the outcome ends up being beneficial to the wronged party.
Completely agreed. Back in my uni days when I used to download, I did justify it on the basis that I was still spending as much as I could reasonably afford on CDs. But ultimately you realise that one way or the other, it's still stealing, and is by it's nature unethical. So now I pay for the premium version of Spotify and get to discover a ton of stuff on there, and for everything else I buy CDs or legal digital downloads.

And Ariich I think this is the perfect way to look at it.  It comes down to people trying to justify it, but its unjustifiable stealing regardless.  I commend you for your outlook.

I think people don't realize how it hurts the industry not to buy ALL their music.  The label is made up of lots of people.  All people that need to get paid to feed their families or make a life for themself.  The less money coming in, means the more jobs that need to get cut.  It's all a snowball effect.  Actions have consequences, even downloading music instead of buying.  There are no excuses.  Stealing is stealing.

Now Devy is a lil different because he records and produces his own albums now.  But, he still can't go 100% all out for free downloading because he still has a distributor that needs to get paid for getting his album out there to people, and I'm sure Devy wants to make some money.  Also the more CDs he sells, the more likely he is going to be able to get funds to record the next one.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2011, 05:39:43 PM »
Also, as sad as it is to think, a listener who listents to your stuff for free and has never paid you anything is still better than no listener at all, like rob said.
Well, that is a matter of personal opinion. Some artists will feel that way (Devy in particular is very outspoken about it) but many others will not agree at all.

So if I steal a video game from a store, its better that I steal it and play it for free than not play it at all?  Cause I'll tell all my friends how great it is and maybe they will go buy it?
Well, piracy is copying rather than theft - "steal from a store" isn't exactly a solid analogy - but for some reason that does feel different, and I can't quite place why. Perhaps it's the narrative aspect? Or perhaps it's that the video game is its own source of income and that's it, whereas for a band an album is barely a droplet in an ocean. Good question though, it feels different but I'm not sure why.

For what it's worth, I bought Spore from a store, realised I didn't need the disc to play it, and when I decided it wasn't worth the £40 I spent, I took it back for a refund, effectively copying Spore for free. So you know, it's not something I particularly object to, because I have actually done it. (Interestingly, if I thought the game were worth buying, I'd have been happy to spend the money - so maybe it is like for like after all.)

With music, though, you've got two phases. You've got to get people listening, and you've got to get those listeners buying. They're distinct from one another - but, funnily enough, the record labels are happy with it. They're more than happy to consent to putting entire albums on Spotify, for instance. I'd say that the music industry has recognised that purchasing and listening aren't necessarily the same thing - and it recognised it quite a while ago. By maximising the listeners you're thereby maximising the purchasers. The more they can hear, the better.

Besides which, with a service like Spotify, does it matter if the listener won't buy the album? The artists still get royalties off it. The listener gets to hear their music for free. Listeners and purchasers aren't necessarily the same thing, but some of those listeners (not all, but some) will graduate into purchasers. I think it's just a case of getting with the times.

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2011, 05:43:41 PM »
Ok let me rephrase.  It's ok to walk into a record store and steal a CD?  I'm just asking to make my point, that's all.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline Jamesman42

  • There you'll find me
  • DT.net Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21853
  • Spiral OUT
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2011, 05:49:48 PM »
If someone listens to music for free and then goes to see that band in concert, where the real money is made to the band, then the band has not only not lost something, they have gained a fan and some revenue.

So stealing from the record company is OK then?  I mean their money made the album come to be.
Yeah that's my issue with the whole "the band get more from shows anyway, the label take all the album money" argument as well. The label support the band.

I mean in relation to Grooveshark, not illegal downloading. Stealing from the record company, I'm not losing sleep over.

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2011, 05:53:41 PM »
Ok let me rephrase.  It's ok to walk into a record store and steal a CD?  I'm just asking to make my point, that's all.
Nope. Not a fan of shoplifting. Although, part of the reason that I have slightly less against illegal music downloaders than shoplifters is that I do believe that a CD is added value and that they're missing out on it - from the cover to the liner notes to that irreplacable feeling of putting it into your CD player for the first time and pressing play.

Then again, it's like the advert - "you wouldn't steal a car" - I certainly wouldn't, but to make a free carbon copy of one? I can't say I wouldn't be tempted. Money's tight and I do need a car.

I'm not much of a pirate anyway, though, truth be told. The vast majority of my downloading consists of archive BBC TV shows that aren't released on DVDs - my only music piracy consists of streaming lo-fi off YouTube, or maybe someone'll send me a song on MSN 'cause they want to know what I'll think of it. I don't enjoy piracy 'cause I'm too much of a collector. I don't begrudge the buggers, though. Music is very abstract, and a ridiculously highly saturated market. I honestly think that for a lot of bands nowadays - and a lot of the bands that I love - it does so much more good than harm. It offers the oxygen of publicity to bands that would never otherwise get the blockbusters' tablescraps. Just as radio is make-and-break, nowadays piracy can ignite an entire career. It's more of a grey area than Spotify or Grooveshark, but it's another chain in the first phase of profitability, and lots of pirates will attend the infinitely-more-profitable gigs anyway, contributing almost as much as a paying fan to that band's livelihood, keeping it afloat.

The oxygen of publicity is so much more important than the poxy pittance that CD sales offer a band that it's still no contest.

Offline RuRoRul

  • Posts: 1668
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2011, 06:35:44 PM »
Also, as sad as it is to think, a listener who listents to your stuff for free and has never paid you anything is still better than no listener at all, like rob said.
Well, that is a matter of personal opinion. Some artists will feel that way (Devy in particular is very outspoken about it) but many others will not agree at all.

I see what you mean, I knowthat plenty of artists would really rather the people don't get to listen at all if they don't pay. I just meant "better" in terms of publicity, and helping them to make more money. If someone gets all a band's stuff without paying for it and then introduces it to people who do pay for it (or go see them live), the band is technically better off than if the person never illegally downloaded it at all. And if a lot of people illegally download and it leads to increased internet traffic / discussion for the band, that's technically beneficial to them as well.

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2011, 06:52:56 PM »
If someone listens to music for free and then goes to see that band in concert, where the real money is made to the band, then the band has not only not lost something, they have gained a fan and some revenue.

So stealing from the record company is OK then?  I mean their money made the album come to be.
Yeah that's my issue with the whole "the band get more from shows anyway, the label take all the album money" argument as well. The label support the band.

I mean in relation to Grooveshark, not illegal downloading. Stealing from the record company, I'm not losing sleep over.

See post a few up about record label being run by people, people who need to get paid.  It's all a part of our economy.  I think people think Record Label and just see some fat cat in a suit high up on the ladder raking in all of the money.  Don't forget about everyone who works for that label, and all the recording studios involved in making the album and all the people that work in those studios.  The artists that do the artwork.  It's a whole thing and it's all paid for with CD sales.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline skydivingninja

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11600
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2011, 08:12:08 PM »
Also, as sad as it is to think, a listener who listents to your stuff for free and has never paid you anything is still better than no listener at all, like rob said. Usually the choice people make when choosing to illegally listen to something for free is "Download illegally or don't listen at all", rather than "Download illegally or buy". I know if I was suggested a random band and had no idea whether I'd like them or not, and the only way for me to hear their stuff was to go out and buy their album, I probably would just never hear their stuff.

This is what usually goes through my head when hearing about a new band.  Sometimes I'll listen to a whole album on grooveshark or download it, and if I like it enough, I'll buy it, or I'll buy the band's other albums.  For example, there was some band (can't remember the name now) that I passed by in a record store.  Their sticker said "for fans of Circa Survive and Mew."  Well, I love Mew, so when I got home, I listened to the whole album on grooveshark.  It was pretty terrible and nothing like Mew at all.  So I saved myself about $20 that I used to buy a Bright Eyes album, since I had fallen in love with them after doing the same thing with Digital Ash. 

Offline King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59472
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2011, 08:37:50 PM »
You know in the day when the interwebs was a baby my cousin and I would hang out at record store for hours on end listening to full cd's for free so as long as you don't download...what's the harm?


Also, there's only room for one bender in these ther hills RuRoRul.............unless your my brother Flexo?  Where's the beard? :biggrin:
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 08:49:50 PM by kingshmegland »
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Riceball

  • It's the economy, stupid.
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2011, 08:47:21 PM »
The way I see it, putting my boring economic rationalist hat on for the 100th time on DTF, the market for "music" has failed.

I use the term market failure in an economic sense, in that the market is unable to price itself in such a way to balance supply and demand. The problem that I see is that there is almost an unlimited supply of music, in a rational sense, matched with an almost infinite demand for music. Under normal circumstances, or prior to the internet as many have pointed out, the marketing system for music would involve listening to the radio, liking or disliking what you heard (more often than not, liking I'd say) and going out a buying a CD with the song you like on it. So what this was able to do is basically create a market for music, effectively reducing the "supply" of music to those bands who made it on the radio, which those who listened to the radio would then buy because its what they heard on the radio. Then, bands could/would follow up by going on tour, selling merchandise etc; but this would all be based around their popularity gained from being heard on the radio and shifting units. I'm probably grossly simplifying here, but it suits the purpose of what I'm trying to say lol.

The market for music was similar to an oligopoly, there was a highly concentrated supply of music in the hands of major record labels and, by extension, major bands, who were able to earn rents on their services due to their market power.

Flash forward to 2011, and this system is broken. Just think of all of the marketing channels created by the internet: forums, Facebook, web magazines, probably more. All of a sudden, this old oligopoly market structure is broken and we shift to something more akin to perfect competition (perhaps even monopolistic competition, as suppliers do have some power to earn rents); which lowers consumer expectations about the price they pay for services while simultaneously expanding the market. No longer is the market totally dominated by a number of big bands or record labels, internet technologies have broken the hold. The problem of infinite supply and infinite demand emerges, where a price signal doesn’t do enough to match supply and demand; and as a result the market price for music plummets so the supply can be better matched with demand.

So, businesses are forced to adapt to the new market structure in order to make money; they try to create oligopolistic profits by “making” an artist huge (by getting radio stations to play their song 15 times a day, plaster their semi-nudeness all over the side of buses, etc), selling lots of singles, supporting with a tour which charges $100 per ticket and merchandise that is marked up by hundreds of percent, and then putting them out to pasture. Think about all of the mainstream music that has been churned through over the past decade or so.

Meanwhile, all of the other bands that don’t have this kind of support flounder somewhat under the pressures of the market. How many bands do you see these days that aren’t in real niche markets touring, surviving and thriving? As a result, smaller bands are forced into a situation where they have to sell their music for effectively nothing and hope they can drum up enough support for a tour, and make their money that way. Selling records doesn’t pay the bills, and I can vouch for a number of people I know who have tried and failed to go down this route.

So I suppose what I’m getting at is that services like Spotify, last.fm, are good for the music industry, as they give these other bands who don’t have the support of the oligopoly a chance. The internet is also fantastic for collaboration, diversification and creativity as far as I’m concerned. I’m actually working on a high level business plan at the moment for something that harnesses the internet and the creative process, if anyone is interested. We are never, ever going to go back to the days of the Beatles, who put out 27 studio albums and were out there for decades; market forces won’t allow that. However, the new market structure will allow for a greater diversity of music to be made and heard, if not in the mainstream, but in communities like this.
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

A $500 Musical Odyssey: Now accepting nominations

Offline 7StringedBeast

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2804
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2011, 08:53:10 PM »
It's sad that we have most likely seen the end of truly great bands making it big.
If anyone in this thread judge him; heyy James WTF? about you in Awake In Japan? Then I will say; WTF about you silly?

Offline skydivingninja

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11600
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2011, 08:53:59 PM »
You know in the day when the interwebs was a baby my cousin and I would hang out at record store for hours on end listening to full cd's for free so as long as you don't download...what's the harm?


Now there's an idea, except record stores are...

a. almost extinct
b. replacing any kind of real "trial version" of an album with an electronic "listen to some 30-second clips of songs" machine.
3.  Hang on, c. typically, along with most retail stores, not huge on atmosphere or paying super-close attention to customers.  None of them would think about offering that kind of service you're talking about anymore, and I think consumers would rather just not ask about it than to ask, get their request rejecting, and think that they've burdened the employees in some way or made themselves feel unwelcome or troublesome in the future.

Offline King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59472
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2011, 09:05:09 PM »
 :lol  And we wonder why they are falling by the wayside.  In truth the cool, not corporate stores that sell books and tea's and lattes, that you can talk to the owner of the store he'll through the cd on and is passionate about music were the coolest places to hang out.

Not the pretentious places where the douchey kid with the Hello Kitty tat and the, I'm so indie why the fuck would you want to buy this dickhead employee became the norm.

sona.  I just found a job for you! :lol :P
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline energythief

  • Chubby Chaser
  • Posts: 630
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2011, 09:07:56 PM »
One simple solution: don't dismiss an artist because of grooveshark's subpar sound quality.  Understand that the artist's album probably doesn't sound that bad.  Its like hearing a song like "Sweet Child of Mine" on FM Radio.  The quality is significantly worse, but you can still hear that its a good song despite that.

Agreed. I always have a hard time understanding the "low quality = bad song" argument. If it's a good song, it's still a good song despite poor sound quality. If I hear a song I don't like on the radio, it's not like I'm going to magically be turned into a fan once I hear it in CD-quality sound. Crap song = crap song.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41971
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2011, 09:11:17 PM »
If someone listens to music for free and then goes to see that band in concert, where the real money is made to the band, then the band has not only not lost something, they have gained a fan and some revenue.

Well, the problem is that if a band doesn't sell enough CDs, the label won't support them on a tour.  Downloading CDs from the big boys like U2, Rolling Stones, etc. isn't gonna them that much, since they'll still make a killing off of touring, but for the smaller bands who need a lot of label support to make it at all a lot of the time, it can kill them. 

Offline Jamesman42

  • There you'll find me
  • DT.net Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21853
  • Spiral OUT
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2011, 09:13:38 PM »
If someone listens to music for free and then goes to see that band in concert, where the real money is made to the band, then the band has not only not lost something, they have gained a fan and some revenue.

So stealing from the record company is OK then?  I mean their money made the album come to be.
Yeah that's my issue with the whole "the band get more from shows anyway, the label take all the album money" argument as well. The label support the band.

I mean in relation to Grooveshark, not illegal downloading. Stealing from the record company, I'm not losing sleep over.

See post a few up about record label being run by people, people who need to get paid.  It's all a part of our economy.  I think people think Record Label and just see some fat cat in a suit high up on the ladder raking in all of the money.  Don't forget about everyone who works for that label, and all the recording studios involved in making the album and all the people that work in those studios.  The artists that do the artwork.  It's a whole thing and it's all paid for with CD sales.

I understand that people need to get paid, and I appreciate their work, but it's not bothering me. It's entertainment, and the ability to select entertainment legally and for free helps me make informed decisions on what to buy later on. I have been using Grooveshark a lot lately to find music I know I will eventually buy (for example, The Dear Hunter, thanks to ariich, is now some music I legally own). There will be some I won't buy, but I bet others will.



Edit: I see your point, Kev, but I think I address it in this reply right here.

Offline Riceball

  • It's the economy, stupid.
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2011, 09:21:44 PM »
If someone listens to music for free and then goes to see that band in concert, where the real money is made to the band, then the band has not only not lost something, they have gained a fan and some revenue.

Well, the problem is that if a band doesn't sell enough CDs, the label won't support them on a tour.  Downloading CDs from the big boys like U2, Rolling Stones, etc. isn't gonna them that much, since they'll still make a killing off of touring, but for the smaller bands who need a lot of label support to make it at all a lot of the time, it can kill them. 

See my boring, long winded and pointless post above.
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

A $500 Musical Odyssey: Now accepting nominations

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41971
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2011, 09:25:00 PM »
I hear ya.  While I am generally in favor of buying and supporting the artist, I am not gonna be a hypocrite and say I have never gotten free music from friends, etc.   I have.  We all have.  Even most of those who proclaim to be 100% against downloading.  I mean, how many of us older (30 or older) folks, when we were younger, make cassette copies of albums, or had them made for us, or borrowed someone's CD/album/etc.?  Most of us, probably.  And that is the same thing as downloading.  You are still getting to listen to music that you didn't buy for free.  

And what all of the anti-downloaders need to remember is that not every download is a lost sale.  I see that argument on occasion and just laugh at it.  A lot of the time, downloaders will check out stuff that they never would have went out and blindly bought on their own, so if 100 people, who had never heard an artist before, go out and download the CD, and 20 like it enough to go buy the CD, you didn't lose 80 sales; you gained 20.  Of course, this isn't an exact science, as the numbers vary from person to person, album to album, etc., and there are definitely way too many people who already like a band and would still rather steal the music than buy it, but it is not as simple as, "Downloaders are evil thieves who have single-handedly destroyed the music business," like some would have us believe.

Offline Riceball

  • It's the economy, stupid.
  • Posts: 969
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2011, 09:29:39 PM »
And what all of the anti-downloaders need to remember is that not every download is a lost sale.

Precisely, it just smacks of protectionism and "oh woe is me" tactics by those who proclaim it.
I punch those numbers into my calculator and they make a happy face.

A $500 Musical Odyssey: Now accepting nominations

Offline Quadrochosis

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4152
  • Gender: Male
  • We Are Not Alone
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2011, 08:43:09 AM »
Freedom, you and me
We lost our world...
she lost them.
Freedom, you and me…
Kawaii...
Kawaii...
Arrival, new arrival
Kawaii...
Kawaii.
Freedom, you and me
We lost our world...
she lost them.
Freedom, you and me...
Kawaii...
Arrive safe.
Arrival, new arrival
Kawaii...
Kawaii.
space cadet, pull out.
The only thing I enjoy more than Frengers is pleasing myself anally via the prostate.
"From my butt, I can see your house..."

Offline RuRoRul

  • Posts: 1668
  • Gender: Male
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2011, 03:16:46 PM »
Also, there's only room for one bender in these ther hills RuRoRul.............unless your my brother Flexo?  Where's the beard? :biggrin:


Offline King Postwhore

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 59472
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: ethics of using Grooveshark to listen to new music
« Reply #100 on: June 21, 2011, 03:38:59 PM »
Also, there's only room for one bender in these ther hills RuRoRul.............unless your my brother Flexo?  Where's the beard? :biggrin:



 :biggrin: :lol
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC