Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions

[hefdaddy42]

A common complaint among non-DT fans about DT is that many of their songs are bloated and indulgent.  I don't often agree with that assessment, but BC&SL is surely the exception.  This is the one album that would have benefitted most from some editing of the songs.  With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.

As it is, this sits with WDADU at the bottom of the rankings for me, and neither is played very often.

[gmillerdrake]

With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.

totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.

[Rodni Demental]

This album is DT at it's best. Has been my favourite album since I started properly listening to them in 09.

[hefdaddy42]

With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.

totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.

No question, except for me ANTR isn't even alright.  I just don't ever listen to it.

[Prog Snob]

With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.

totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.

No question, except for me ANTR isn't even alright.  I just don't ever listen to it.

There are some sections of ANTR that the song could do without (most notably, MPs gruff vocals), but the hopelessly drifting section ranks as one of my favorite DT moments ever.

[cramx3]

With the exception of Wither, which is perfect (for what it is), all of the other songs would benefit from some strategic cuts, which would make the album as a whole much better.

totally agree with this. If ANTR was about 5 minutes shorter it'd be an awesome song. Instead, for me....it's an alright song with a couple really cool sections.

No question, except for me ANTR isn't even alright.  I just don't ever listen to it.

There are some sections of ANTR that the song could do without (most notably, MPs gruff vocals), but the hopelessly drifting section ranks as one of my favorite DT moments ever.

YES, that section is orgasm worthy

[axeman90210]

I love ANTR through that section, everything afterwards is pretty meh for me.

[Kotowboy]

1. The Count of Tuscany

2. The Shattered Fortress

3. Wither

4. The Best Of Times

5. A Rite Of Passage

6. A Nightmare To Remember


imo

[bosk1]

Incorrect.  But that's okay.

[KevShmev]

The first half of A Nightmare to Remember is pretty awesome. Not just the hopelessly drifting section, but the first two verses and choruses.  It's just too bad that the second half of the song isn't nearly as good.  It's not bad by any means, but just doesn't live up to the first half.

[Cable]

The first half of A Nightmare to Remember is pretty awesome. Not just the hopelessly drifting section, but the first two verses and choruses.  It's just too bad that the second half of the song isn't nearly as good.  It's not bad by any means, but just doesn't live up to the first half.

Spot on Kev. Speaking to the choir, I never thought of the song in a two halves way. But it totally makes sense. The second half has everything I dislike about the song- MP lead vocals, and can-has-blast beats in the middle of the drawn out intro reprise. I don't mind the instrumental section, but I could live without it. The heavy riff reprise is cool however, and the riff post MP lead is neat.

I also agree in that I'm not even sure the sections I noted are the worst in DT's catalog. But with what they signify, they are easily the most glaring terds IMO. Which is makes this song so messed up, because it has an awesome build, with Beautiful Agony still being potentially a top 5 DT moment. If not that, easily the best vocal harmonies and top 3 vocal melody at this point IMO. But that heavy riff and "without warning" section are also stellar.

Blob's opinion of Scarred = a platypus is not that far off for my view on this song.

[Rickharris1011]

Not my favorite, but I gave it a lot of spins when it came out. 
I'll go back and listen to TCOT and Wither.

SIde note - the video for Wither is the 3rd most viewed DT Video on youtube.  That kind of surprised me (Not as much as Forsaken being #1)
#5, just behind Another Day is the cover of Pull Me Under by Aaorn O'Keefe's students.  The 11-year old Kala Scarpinski slays the vocals.

OK - Tangent over.

[IDontNotDoThings]

(continued from DOT thread)

A lot of the reason why I rank BC&SL so highly is because I absolutely love the production. Everything sounds so clear & high-quality, & I don't think there's a single moment where it felt like two instruments were clashing or fighting for space.

On top of that though, I also adore the songs from a structural standpoint. They do a great job of containing enough variety so that it feels like every song is its own little adventure. You could call every track (except Wither & TBOT) a metal song, but they all have moments that make me really emotional. That's one of my favourite things about DT music & BC&SL nails it.

So yeah, that's why it's my 2nd favourite DT album behind I&W.

[DT1138]

(continued from DOT thread)

A lot of the reason why I rank BC&SL so highly is because I absolutely love the production. Everything sounds so clear & high-quality, & I don't think there's a single moment where it felt like two instruments were clashing or fighting for space.

On top of that though, I also adore the songs from a structural standpoint. They do a great job of containing enough variety so that it feels like every song is its own little adventure. You could call every track (except Wither & TBOT) a metal song, but they all have moments that make me really emotional. That's one of my favourite things about DT music & BC&SL nails it.

So yeah, that's why it's my 2nd favourite DT album behind I&W.

No disrespect at all, but to me this is one of the worst sounding albums they did.  I hate the darker sound quality beyond words.  I also don't like Wither at all.   The rest of the songs are cool though.  With it being MP's last album, the overall "darkness" that was probably in the studio/between the band members is probably reflected in the songs, just a humble guess on my part, but that's what it feels like to me.

[jammindude]

This is DTs “S*** Sandwich”.

Two really great epics, sandwiching some of the most boring copy/paste “DT by the numbers” I’ve ever heard.

Only SC is worse.

[MirrorMask]

So many positive comments in the first pages of this thread. New album hysteria? I get the impression that even on these boards the album is not much loved but if you read the first pages it's like it was the best album since Scenes 

[erciccio]

So many positive comments in the first pages of this thread. New album hysteria? I get the impression that even on these boards the album is not much loved but if you read the first pages it's like it was the best album since Scenes 

In particular I am shocked by the amount of love for ANTR....
That song would probably rank very low for most of the initial fans...

After many years, I confess I don't like it.
The only sectionsvI really love are "beautiful agony", TBOT solo and TCOT outro.

All the rest ranks at the bottom of all my rankings...

[CirclesSquared]

Only SC is worse.

I am of the same mind.

There was no new album hysteria syndrome for me. I disliked it from the go, cementing my opinion of the post-Six Degrees or at least post-Tot/pre-ADTOE era as DT's low point.

As soon as we were treated to those awfully processed promo images of band doing their worst (or best) Machine Head impersonation, I kind of knew what was brewing.

Fun fact: This album features my all time least favorite JR sound: the godawful screech during solo on Rite of Passage.

[lucidlydreaming]

I liked the cover songs they did more than the original compositions.

[KevShmev]

So many positive comments in the first pages of this thread. New album hysteria? I get the impression that even on these boards the album is not much loved but if you read the first pages it's like it was the best album since Scenes 

Some albums do not age well.  I still like this record, but I don't love it, and I rarely listen to anything from it anymore.

Regarding immediate reaction at the time, I have been on these forums (dt.net and then this one) since 2000  and Train of Thought is really the only album of theirs I remember getting heavily criticized on release day and the weeks after.  Every other album has gotten a pretty positive reaction, but like I said above, some albums age better than others, which is why some of the albums that were liked a lot right away are not as well-liked now.

[kaos2900]

Looking back on this "era" of DT (I'm considering SC and BC&SL) I remember thinking that both albums were instantly amazing. Though over time my love for those albums continues to erode. They have definitely not aged well and I consider them to be at the bottom of the DT albums (SC is at the very bottom for me). There are some great songs (ItPoE and Count of Tuscany (even with the terrible lyrics) are both solid) but compared to their other output they're just not that great. Hindsight being 20/20 MP leaving was the best thing for the band and MP (assuming MP was the primary driver for the direction of those two albums).

[Dream Team]

Funny thing about this album, the other day I tried a different song-ranking method and BCSL finished much higher than I usually rank it. That’s because with only 6 songs there aren’t a lot of weak ones to drag down the overall score. AROP is the only one I think of as below average because the others all have something great about them that I like.

[gzarruk]

There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.

[DT1138]

There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.

I agree fully.  I'll take SC over this one any time.  I'm sure we're in the minority though!   

[gzarruk]

There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.

I agree fully.  I'll take SC over this one any time.  I'm sure we're in the minority though!   

I even like SC more than Octavarium

[krands85]

There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.

I agree fully.  I'll take SC over this one any time.  I'm sure we're in the minority though!   

I also prefer SC. If I try and match the albums up against each other, I look at it like this: Both have 2 top tier songs that I really love - an epic in ITPOE/TCOT, which are fairly evenly matched and a 'mini-epic'  in TMOLS/ANTR, where I slightly prefer the former. Then there's the 'single' - I like Constant Motion way more than AROP. The 'ballad' - I prefer Forsaken to Wither. They both also have one longer song that I don't really like - Repentance and TBOT. Then there's The Dark Eternal Night and The Shattered Fortress which are pretty even. Plus of course SC also has Prophets of War which I actually think is OK.

[gzarruk]

There's great monents throughout, but overall this album is a bit of a disappointment. It stays in my bottom 3 DT albums. However, I really enjoy SC and, imo, it's miles better than this one.

I agree fully.  I'll take SC over this one any time.  I'm sure we're in the minority though!   

I also prefer SC. If I try and match the albums up against each other, I look at it like this: Both have 2 top tier songs that I really love - an epic in ITPOE/TCOT, which are fairly evenly matched and a 'mini-epic'  in TMOLS/ANTR, where I slightly prefer the former. Then there's the 'single' - I like Constant Motion way more than AROP. The 'ballad' - I prefer Forsaken to Wither. They both also have one longer song that I don't really like - Repentance and TBOT. Then there's The Dark Eternal Night and The Shattered Fortress which are pretty even. Plus of course SC also has Prophets of War which I actually think is OK.

Completely agree with this.

SC, to me, has better balance between heavy and melodic, and the tracks have more diversity than the ones on BC&SL.

[Fritzinger]

I loved Black Clouds when it came out and I still do. I was 16 when it was released and Dream Theater had opened a whole new musical world for me. I discovered all the old and "new" masters of prog, but DT was (and is) still my favorite band. I seriously couldn't wait to get my hands on this album. I even purchased the deluxe box set and accepted the absurd shipping costs from the States. That was a lot of money, especially for a 16yo.
I got to know the band around 2006 and Systematic Chaos was the first album released while I already knew and loved them, but Black Clouds was the first album of theirs where I - how do I put this right - actively participated in the pre-release madness. So this album was and is very special to me.

Plus, it's just awesome. The opener is their heaviest song ever and I absolutely love its raw energy, structure and the mellow middle part. TCOT is a masterpiece, no one ever dare to deny that. The Best Of Times, yes it's cheesy and personal and all... but it's also touching and beautiful. The guy lost his dad, let him be personal ffs. Also, JPs solo at the end yowsa! The Shattered Fortress is an awesome closer for an epic epic. It was also stunning to see the whole thing performed live by MP's Shattered Fortress. The Rite Of Passage is not exactly a masterpiece, but I think the chorus is a lot stronger than Constant Motion's. Wither is just beautiful. That orchestral bridge (drown in hesitation) and the guitar solo? Fantastic.

The album has some weird experiments, like MPs "growls", yes. But they are one last wink of MPs weirdness before he "left". It's MP's legacy.

[Willthescout7]

Black Clouds remains my favorite album. It was my introduction to Dream Theater and without it I wouldn't be here. I can't think of a single song on it that I skip ever and don't seek out. Heck, I made my girlfriend listen to it and I couldn't stop grinning like a fool.

The Count of Tuscany is beautiful and my favorite epic.

[RAIN]

It's a great album, that's all there is to say.  It's practically perfect.  A Nightmare to Remember is still one of the best DT songs, and DT album openers of all time.

[bosk1]

I loved Black Clouds when it came out and I still do. I was 16 when it was released and Dream Theater had opened a whole new musical world for me.

Not sure why, but when I read your post, I couldn't help but think back to the "Choose Your Own Nightmare II" thread.  I had SO MANY references to BCSL in that, since it was the newest album.  Too bad we never got to finish that story.  It started out pretty epic.

[Elite]

I liked the cover songs they did more than the original compositions.

Yup!

[KevShmev]

SC, to me, has better balance between heavy and melodic, and the tracks have more diversity than the ones on BC&SL.

I stand by what I have said for a while now: the songwriting on BC&SL was better than it was on SC, but it has no personality, while SC at least has that kind of "cheesy horror flick" vibe at times which you won't find on any other Dream Theater record.

[Fritzinger]

I loved Black Clouds when it came out and I still do. I was 16 when it was released and Dream Theater had opened a whole new musical world for me.

Not sure why, but when I read your post, I couldn't help but think back to the "Choose Your Own Nightmare II" thread.  I had SO MANY references to BCSL in that, since it was the newest album.  Too bad we never got to finish that story.  It started out pretty epic.

I was very active in the German DT Forum back then, but I wasn't in DTF yet - can you explain?

[Wim Kruithof]

Does anybody know why they swapped Wither and The Shattered Fortress on the vinyl release? On their website, on iTunes and cd versions there is Wither at 3#, followed by #4 The Shattered Fortress.

On my vinyl it's the other way around.