How to Kill a Human Being

[ReaPsTA]

What is exactly so scary about a dude that wants to have sex? You stick em in a community to rehabilitate and on the border, you have guards.

Can I assume you don't have any children?  I know I'm going so, so, sooo far out on a limb by guessing that, but it's the only explanation I have for your frankly shocking lack of empathy for people who want to make sure child rape doesn't happen.

And also, I really don't see how looking at child porn all day is going to rehabilitate them.  

No, but I kinda get his point.  If keeps them busy and away from real children, then maybe it's not a bad thing.  It's why I never understood the issue with virtual/fake/drawn/animated child porn.  The whole issue with child porn is that children are in it, right?  Otherwise, yeah it's horrifying but I thought the point of the first amendment was to protect speech no matter how objectionable.

[73109]

I'm 16, I have no kids, and I never said I wanted these dudes to rape small children. All I was getting at is that we are really lacking empathy by locking these guys up, never to try to even rehabilitate innate sexual urges.

[Zook]

o_O

[7StringedBeast]

It won't. I'm just saying if you don't want to rehabilitate them for whatever reason, at least let them enjoy their vices.

You wouldn't be saying that if it was your little girl/boy they were jerking it to, would you?

[El Barto]

Personally, I'd be much more upset with whoever took the pictures.  Of course the statistical likelihood is that it was probably the girls father, which would be me in this case, or the girl herself who was responsible.  Fuck.  Now what?

As much as I like discussing the irrational behavior of terrified parents and a society which thinks every child is at immediate risk of getting fucked by strangers, I've got to say I'm a bit puzzled what this has to do with the death penalty.  

[Rathma]

It won't. I'm just saying if you don't want to rehabilitate them for whatever reason, at least let them enjoy their vices.

You wouldn't be saying that if it was your little girl/boy they were jerking it to, would you?

I'm gonna take a huge leap of faith and assume that he doesn't have a little girl or boy.

[73109]

I'M 16!!!

But...back to the death penalty discussion.

[7StringedBeast]

It won't. I'm just saying if you don't want to rehabilitate them for whatever reason, at least let them enjoy their vices.

You wouldn't be saying that if it was your little girl/boy they were jerking it to, would you?

I'm gonna take a huge leap of faith and assume that he doesn't have a little girl or boy.

Yeah no kidding.  I know that.  But the point is, the kid has a limited scope of world view.  If/when he becomes a father, I'm 100% sure his view on this matter will change. 

[Tick]

To chime in on this thread...
I live in Connecticut and our state has been enduring the trial of two people who were involved in the 2007 Cheshire home invasion in which Dr. William Petit's family was murdered.
His wife and two younger daughters were brutally raped, then tied to there beds, doused in gasoline and set on fire. Its a story seared in to the residents of Connecticut's minds.
One man had his trial and was given the death penalty. The other mans trial has not started yet. He will no doubt also receive the death penalty as well.
This case has changed many a persons mind about their thoughts on the death penalty.
The following images are seared in our collective brains in my state.


Be it right or wrong, if I'm being honest, I would have to say, I would like them both to experience a heinous and painful death.
What they did to this man's family, and to the man who must now live with the loss of his family and the thoughts of their torture for the rest of his days makes me want to see both of the men suffer, rather then be given a nice humane ending to their evil lives.

[Rathma]

Why can't we just go back to nailing people on crosses? It would significantly decrease crime imo.

[El Barto]

Yeah no kidding.  I know that.  But the point is, the kid has a limited scope of world view.  If/when he becomes a father, I'm 100% sure his view on this matter will change. 

I'm not a kid and I don't have a limited worldview, and I'm closer to his side than yours.  One of the things that has always troubled me is the notion that since I've never "held my child in my own hands for the first time", or whatever other epoch-shattering child-related event is supposed to turn me into a completely different person, that my perspective on kids is somehow inferior.  Objectivity is valuable, and I'd suggest that parents have absolutely no sense of objectivity left after the aforementioned event.  They have a different perspective, which is quite valuable, but the same can be said of a person like me with no kids and no particular regard for them, either.  People with kids shouldn't be the sole determiner of the nation's character as it pertains to them. 

Be it right or wrong, if I'm being honest, I would have to say, I would like them both to experience a heinous and painful death.
What they did to this man's family, and to the man who must now live with the loss of his family and the thoughts of their torture for the rest of his days makes me want to see both of the men suffer, rather then be given a nice humane ending to their evil lives.

How does that fit in with your Christian values?  I personally never agreed with the interpretation that God says the death penalty is cool as long as whatever government you're under says it is, but at least there's a semblance of validity to the position.   I'm curious how one who's been admonished to be non-judgmental rationalizes a desire to be less humane towards admitted assholes.

And what does that say about you as a human being?

I'm not trying to single you out, Tick, and I'm not looking to give you shit about your honest opinion on the matter.  It's actually quite understandable.  But since you pointed out that it could be right or wrong in your statement, I'm curious if you actually have an opinion one way or the other. 

[7StringedBeast]

Barto,

Are you actually suggesting, instead of punishing child rapists/molestors or child porn creators/gatherers/users, we should lock them up in a room with tons of child porn.  Where did that child porn come from?  It had to come from somewhere, and some child got taken advantage of in order for it to exist in the first place. 

Numbers and Barto, are you really saying that this is OK in modern society?  That its just fine to encourage these people to keep doing it?  This might be one of the most insane notions I've seen put up on this board.  How in the world could that possibly help anything?  What does allowing this say about your character?  I mean, its a terrible idea.

And regarding those Cheshire murderers.  Yes they deserve death.  I don't think it needs to be cruel and tortuous, but I can level- headedly say I believe they deserve to die for what they did.  I think there are some things you simply cannot be forgiven for and you cannot come back from.  Ex. these guys, Osama bin laden, hitler etc etc.

 

[El Barto]

No, I think the idea giving them their own treehouse with a never ending supply of kiddy oriented wanking material is insane.  What I called out was y'alls criticism of his idea based solely on his lack of kids.  Insofar as my opinions on the crime itself, there are a shit-ton of gray areas that seem to get overlooked by parents who can't get passed the idea that every single aspect of it needs to be treated with the utmost severity.  In your remark, you lumped in child rapists with child porn users.  There are miles between the two.  From my non-breeder perspective, the people on your side really seem to act out of panic more than reason. 

[ReaPsTA]

What I called out was y'alls criticism of his idea based solely on his lack of kids.

Just to be clear, I think his idea sucks because it sucks.  The thing he posted that obviously indicates his lack of kids was "What is exactly so scary about a dude that wants to have sex?"

I agree with you that "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" shouldn't be the sole determinant of how we handle criminal justice in this country, but 73109 clearly has no real understanding of what he's talking about.

[Tick]

Yeah no kidding.  I know that.  But the point is, the kid has a limited scope of world view.  If/when he becomes a father, I'm 100% sure his view on this matter will change. 

I'm not a kid and I don't have a limited worldview, and I'm closer to his side than yours.  One of the things that has always troubled me is the notion that since I've never "held my child in my own hands for the first time", or whatever other epoch-shattering child-related event is supposed to turn me into a completely different person, that my perspective on kids is somehow inferior.  Objectivity is valuable, and I'd suggest that parents have absolutely no sense of objectivity left after the aforementioned event.  They have a different perspective, which is quite valuable, but the same can be said of a person like me with no kids and no particular regard for them, either.  People with kids shouldn't be the sole determiner of the nation's character as it pertains to them. 

Be it right or wrong, if I'm being honest, I would have to say, I would like them both to experience a heinous and painful death.
What they did to this man's family, and to the man who must now live with the loss of his family and the thoughts of their torture for the rest of his days makes me want to see both of the men suffer, rather then be given a nice humane ending to their evil lives.

How does that fit in with your Christian values?  I personally never agreed with the interpretation that God says the death penalty is cool as long as whatever government you're under says it is, but at least there's a semblance of validity to the position.   I'm curious how one who's been admonished to be non-judgmental rationalizes a desire to be less humane towards admitted assholes.

And what does that say about you as a human being?

I'm not trying to single you out, Tick, and I'm not looking to give you shit about your honest opinion on the matter.  It's actually quite understandable.  But since you pointed out that it could be right or wrong in your statement, I'm curious if you actually have an opinion one way or the other. 

How does it fit in with my Christian values? It doesn't. My view on the whole thing is wrong.
What does my opinion say about me as a human being? It says, I'm as flawed as anyone.
When I think of me being the one who lost his wife and daughter viciously, it makes me want to see them suffer.
Vengeance is mine says the Lord. I am wrong in my feelings on the issue, but never the less, its how I feel about it.
I hope God changes my heart on this issue, as well as a host of others that I am off base on.
Sorry if you find this explanation lame.

[El Barto]

On the contrary, I find it to be an excellent explanation and quite refreshing.    

[73109]

My issue with everything is that we try to lump in child rapists with "monsters." Obviously, we don't want that shit happening, but if these people are doing this, they are fucked up in the head and deserve a shot at rehabilitation. If they can't, then stick them in a minimum security community. These people are not a threat to society unless they have kiddies in their area, and they are most certainly will not try to escape to get some tail.

[El Barto]

Ya know, dude, even I think you're wrong on that. 

The problem is that you're lumping in people who just think kiddos are hot with rapists.  A rapist, whether they prefer adults or youngsters, is a monster.  If you want to say that people who want to bang kids consensually (and yes I'm aware that's a very questionable notion) aren't monsters and should be treated differently than actual rapists, then I'll agree with you (to a certain extent).

[ClairvoyantCat]

My issue with everything is that we try to lump in child rapists with "monsters."

I think that child rapists are some of the safest "lumps" we can make in the category of monsters.  As I said, I don't see why an exception would be made for such a horrible thing under the assumption that they have something wrong in the head, when that can probably apply to murderers and the likes of which as well. 

The thing is that raping a child is the result of more than just a fucked up fetish.  It means that this person has no remorse for fucking up a child's life and harming that child in some sick ways.  That's the distinction that usually, in my opinion, makes child-rapists pretty damn close to being "monsters."

[73109]

Maybe I'm wrong here, and I should consult a psychologist, but it is obvious that sexual relations with children is a taboo subject, and if someone wants to go and rape small small boy, knowing what will happen and how the world feels, there is something wrong in general and we should not demonize people for people fucked up in the beginning. I basically said to someone I know that it is like demonizing a dude without arms who can't play catch. I say we put these people into intense psychological counseling instead of saying "well, they're fucked up, might as well throw them in jail where they'll get raped and possibly murdered."

And CC, don't you think that if a person can weigh all the options of raping a kid, fucking up his life, dealing with the consequences, and then jail with more consequences, don't you think anybody that can still do it has psychological issues in the first place?

[Adami]

Maybe I'm wrong here, and I should consult a psychologist, but it is obvious that sexual relations with children is a taboo subject, and if someone wants to go and rape small small boy, knowing what will happen and how the world feels, there is something wrong in general and we should not demonize people for people fucked up in the beginning. I basically said to someone I know that it is like demonizing a dude without arms who can't play catch. I say we put these people into intense psychological counseling instead of saying "well, they're fucked up, might as well throw them in jail where they'll get raped and possibly murdered."

And CC, don't you think that if a person can weigh all the options of raping a kid, fucking up his life, dealing with the consequences, and then jail with more consequences, don't you think anybody that can still do it has psychological issues in the first place?

People who have antisocial personality disorder have about a .00000000000000000001% chance of ever getting any better ever.

[73109]

Alright, you are a psychologist thingy, I can talk to you. If you think somebody has this disorder, are the decisions they make rational? I'm not asking if they are smart enough to plan a plan, but do they see the possible consequences of their actions?

[ClairvoyantCat]

It's not really about whether they understand the consequences as much as it is about keeping children safe.  At least, that's the way I see it. 

[73109]

So if it is about the safety of children, why throw them in jail? Why not stick them somewhere much nicer than jail, where they can't harm kids?

[ClairvoyantCat]

Because, quite frankly, I don't see why child rapists deserve a better place to be thrown in than thieves and murderers.  I mean, they may be fucked up, but so are most of the other criminals who are thrown in jail for various other crimes. 

[Adami]

Alright, you are a psychologist thingy, I can talk to you. If you think somebody has this disorder, are the decisions they make rational? I'm not asking if they are smart enough to plan a plan, but do they see the possible consequences of their actions?

Yes they do, unless they're also delusional, or mentally challenged or something like that. But just sociopathic, they lack the ability for empathy, they don't care in the slightest bit about anybody. And no amount of counseling is going to let them develop empathy.

[73109]

Alright, now I'm just being a bleeding heart, but if they lack the ability to feel empathy, should we demonize them for not making a correct decision based on one of the primary decision making factors?

[Adami]

Alright, now I'm just being a bleeding heart, but if they lack the ability to feel empathy, should we demonize them for not making a correct decision based on one of the primary decision making factors?

I don't know if this is actually aimed at me since I never made any comments about demonizing them, and I will continue to not do so. I was just clarifying a point you were making earlier.

[73109]

No, I'm just saying you, the royal you. As a psychologist, do you think something is mentally wrong with someone who looks at a 6 year old and wants to have sexual relations with it?

[Adami]

No, I'm just saying you, the royal you. As a psychologist, do you think something is mentally wrong with someone who looks at a 6 year old and wants to have sexual relations with it?

There is a vast difference between a man who wants to have sex with a 6 year old girl, a man who DOES have sex with a 6 year old girl, and a man who rapes a 6 year old girl. None of the above can be compared.

[ClairvoyantCat]

^ ninja'd

[73109]

No, I'm just saying you, the royal you. As a psychologist, do you think something is mentally wrong with someone who looks at a 6 year old and wants to have sexual relations with it?

There is a vast difference between a man who wants to have sex with a 6 year old girl, a man who DOES have sex with a 6 year old girl, and a man who rapes a 6 year old girl. None of the above can be compared.

Alright, last question before I give up.

If someone is sexually attracted to a 6 year old girl and they act on it, do you think they understand what they are doing and all of the possible consequences of the act?

[Adami]

Once again, assuming they are also not delusional and or mentally challenged, then yes they do.

[73109]

One last one.

What is the average ratio of delusional and mentally challenged people with ASPD to those who are normal?

[Adami]

One last one.

What is the average ratio of delusional and mentally challenged people with ASPD to those who are normal?

I have no idea, they have nothing to do with one another. People with ASPD are most likely not more prone to delusional disorder or any mental disorders, I just had to preface my comments with it because.......well it's just proper. Most people with ASPD are fully functional and they have a full realization of what they're doing, they just don't care.