Author Topic: Confused with technological terms used to describe how music is stored (ex. mp3)  (Read 6288 times)

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Offline Ħ

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So I'm starting to learn more about things like lossy/lossless formats and I am kinda confused.  So maybe I'll just ask a couple general questions I've been thinking of.

1) Can someone give me an example of two identical recordings, where one is "lossy" and the other is not?  I have trouble hearing what people mean by lossy.

2) What is a WAV files and how is it different from an mp3 file?

3) What format are songs usually in when they are on CD's?

4) If I originally record a bit of music as an mp3, does that count as lossy?  And if not, then if I convert these files to something else, like WAV, or even to a physical LP or something, are those converted forms considered lossy?

5) When it comes to 5.1 or 7.1, why is it that these aren't also considered lossy, since they are also a type of digital format?
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Offline AcidLameLTE

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1. Lossy compression is just where some of the information is removed to make the file smaller.

2. WAV file is completely uncompressed. MP3 is a lossy compression format.

3. .cda

4. I would assume so. Why would you convert something that's already lost information into a different format? It'll still be the same quality if you convert it to .wav.

5. I don't really know what you're asking here.

Offline Ħ

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5. I don't really know what you're asking here.
I guess I somehow got the impression that unless something is live or an LP, then it's lossy. Not sure why I thought that, but I guess that's the general vibe I got since so many people value LP's over everything else.
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Offline Sigz

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1) Can someone give me an example of two identical recordings, where one is "lossy" and the other is not?  I have trouble hearing what people mean by lossy.

Go into windows media player (or whatever you use to rip CDs), set the rip quality to 128 kbps, and rip a song. Then listen to the CD, and listen to the .mp3 file you ripped. You'll notice a difference in the sound quality.

Or hell, just go youtube a song you have on CD and compare the two.
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Offline AcidLameLTE

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5. I don't really know what you're asking here.
I guess I somehow got the impression that unless something is live or an LP, then it's lossy. Not sure why I thought that, but I guess that's the general vibe I got since so many people value LP's over everything else.
Nope.

I should add that lossless compression is where the original file before and after remains completely unchanged (FLAC is a good example of this)

Offline Ħ

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1) Can someone give me an example of two identical recordings, where one is "lossy" and the other is not?  I have trouble hearing what people mean by lossy.

Go into windows media player (or whatever you use to rip CDs), set the rip quality to 128 kbps, and rip a song. Then listen to the CD, and listen to the .mp3 file you ripped. You'll notice a difference in the sound quality.

Or hell, just go youtube a song you have on CD and compare the two.
Hm that leads me to another question.  So let's say I put the Images and Words CD into my computer and Itunes pops up.  I can either play the CD directly, or I can just click "import" and do it that way.  Is that the same thing you're talking about?
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Offline Sigz

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Yes. If you import it, assuming that itunes is set to rip the CD in mp3 or some other 'lossy' format, there will be a difference in quality between listening to the ripped version and listening to it straight from the CD. The difference may not be much (or even noticeable depending on your ears/headphones/etc), but it will be there.
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Offline Ħ

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Yes. If you import it, assuming that itunes is set to rip the CD in mp3 or some other 'lossy' format
is it possible to make it not do that?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Perpetual Change

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1) Can someone give me an example of two identical recordings, where one is "lossy" and the other is not?  I have trouble hearing what people mean by lossy.

Go into windows media player (or whatever you use to rip CDs), set the rip quality to 128 kbps, and rip a song. Then listen to the CD, and listen to the .mp3 file you ripped. You'll notice a difference in the sound quality.

Or hell, just go youtube a song you have on CD and compare the two.

I did this once and noticed a huge difference. Then I thought it was just the speakers for my CD Player, so I ripped the same CD twice, once lossless and once at 128 kbps. Even with headphones on, I didn't notice a difference.

So I think something might be wrong with my hearing. Or my laptop soundcard. I dunno. I usually rip at 356 to be on the safe side though. I don't really see the point in lossless. It might be slightly better but it's not worth the extra space IMO.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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So if you are going to "rip" tunes from a CD, what is the audiophile's preferred format, for best sound quality?

Offline AcidLameLTE

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List of compression formats here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs

They're categorised into uncompressed, lossless and lossy.

Offline AcidLameLTE

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So if you are going to "rip" tunes from a CD, what is the audiophile's preferred format, for best sound quality?
Most people would say FLAC

Edit: I usually just rip mine as MP3 at 320kbps though. Sounds fine.

Offline Ħ

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List of compression formats here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_codecs

They're categorised into uncompressed, lossless and lossy.
Wait so compressed =/= lossy?  I'm confused...
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Offline AcidLameLTE

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Nope.

I mean, when you compress a file with WinRAR, you wouldn't expect any information to be missing when you uncompressed it would you?

Edit: Dropping information from a file is just one way of compressing a file.

Offline Sigz

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1) Can someone give me an example of two identical recordings, where one is "lossy" and the other is not?  I have trouble hearing what people mean by lossy.

Go into windows media player (or whatever you use to rip CDs), set the rip quality to 128 kbps, and rip a song. Then listen to the CD, and listen to the .mp3 file you ripped. You'll notice a difference in the sound quality.

Or hell, just go youtube a song you have on CD and compare the two.

I did this once and noticed a huge difference. Then I thought it was just the speakers for my CD Player, so I ripped the same CD twice, once lossless and once at 128 kbps. Even with headphones on, I didn't notice a difference.

So I think something might be wrong with my hearing. Or my laptop soundcard. I dunno. I usually rip at 356 to be on the safe side though. I don't really see the point in lossless. It might be slightly better but it's not worth the extra space IMO.

I can definitely tell the difference between 128 and CD quality, but past that it depends heavily on the album. Some 256 rips I have sounds terrible, others sound fine. I just rip in 320, cause I agree it's not worth the extra space.

Really though, as long as it sounds fine to you it shouldn't matter what the bitrate is.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 09:36:48 AM by Sigz »
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Offline TheVoxyn

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I have some .flac stuff but I also tend to go for 320kb/sec mp3. I can hear the difference in qualities between 128/256 and 320 when wearing good headphones, not as easy when just using speakers.

Offline Ħ

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Couple more questions...

How do I get itunes to store it's files in FLAC format?  And will FLAC work on my ipod?  And if not, are there any portable players that can play lossless formats?

When it comes to surround sound, is there such a thing as 5.1 or 7.1 headphones?  And what type of file is used for each of those?
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Offline TheVoxyn

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There are mp3 players that support .flac but I don't think ipods can. I have a archos that can, but it's more a portable media device (big screen for video etc.) than a mp3 player.

And honestly, if you don't buy expensive headphones you probably won't hear the difference between 320 and .flac on a mp3 player. I have 2 sets of headphones, 1 for on the go and one for at home, because I don't want to bring my expensive one with me all the time.

Offline AcidLameLTE

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These programs will rip to FLAC:
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Audiograbber (with external encoder)
Audio Transcoder
BonkEnc using the FLAC.dll API
CDex included in v1.7 beta2
Exact Audio Copy using the external encoder
Easy CD-DA Extractor
foobar2000 (with external encoder)
iriver plus 3
JetAudio
MediaMonkey
Winamp
Yahoo! Music Jukebox

I don't think iPods can play FLAC but I could be wrong on that one. There are players that play FLAC files. I know a lot of Creative's MP3 players do.

You can get surround sound headphones but I think they only really emulate surround sound or something.

Offline Ħ

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That's a bummer.  How am I supposed to immerse myself in a directionless world of musical bliss now?  >:(
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Offline YtseBitsySpider

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I used to use Audio Grabber with LAME as my encoder when i was anal about these things.
Then I got lazier and went VBR with Microsofts Media player
Then even lazier still with 320 I think.

then.

I got even lazier and just downloaded other people's rips. Most people rip pretty well, it's their tagging that leaves much to be desired.

Winamp plays everything.

Most of the advise you've already gotten here in this thread is excellent. There are people here that really know their stuff.
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Offline Orbert

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5) When it comes to 5.1 or 7.1, why is it that these aren't also considered lossy, since they are also a type of digital format?

Digital does not equal lossy.  Technically CD (Compact Disc) is a lossy medium because there is some information lost when the original performance (which is obviously analog as it occurs in the real world) is converted to CD.  The sampling rate (number of "slices" of information per second) is high enough to where most people today consider it lossless.  But that's why there is a niche market for SACD (Super Audio Compact Disc) which is a CD made from the analog masters but at a much higher sampling rate.  Many audiophiles swear they can hear the difference, and I believe that most of them are full of shit, but I also believe that some people can actually hear it.  Some people do have extraordinary hearing, and if they are also into music, it makes perfect sense.

Purists always point to vinyl as the ultimate lossless medium, because unless the album went through a digital mastering or mixing phase, no information has been lost due to digital sampling.  This is becoming more and more rare, however, because even if the album is released on vinyl, there's a good chance that the mastering was done on modern digital equipment anyway.  The sampling rates are generally so high nowadays that they're considered lossless to everyone except the hardcore purists.

Anyway, why aren't 5.1 or 7.1 considered lossy?  Because 5.1 and 7.1 denote how many channels of sound you're talking about, not the medium or encoding process.  Saying something is 5.1 versus 2.0 is the same as saying it's stereo versus mono.  Either could be lossy or lossless.  You're only talking about the number of channels.

If you have a movie on DVD with a 5.1 soundtrack, all that means is that you have front left, center and right channels, left and right surrounds (that's five so far) plus a low-frequency channel fed to your subwoofer (that's the .1).  7.1 is similar except that you have discrete side and rear surround channels, more like in an actual movie theater.

This is a separate issue from whether the soundtrack itself is lossy or lossless.  The DVD specification does not allow for enough room to store true lossless soundtracks in 5.1.  Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1 sound pretty good to my ears, but they are not lossless.

Dolby TrueHD is a lossless codec, as is DTS HDMA (Hi-Def Master Audio).  That's why it's a big deal (for now anyway) when a Blu-ray disc has TrueHD or HDMA.  Blu-ray does allow for lossless soundtracks.  As with the WinRAR analogy given above, the soundtrack is digitized, but no information is lost, and upon decoding, the result is a lossless soundtrack.  Again, "lossless" in this context only means that no information has been lost relative to the original soundtrack.  Whatever process when into creating the soundtrack itself is not considered.

Offline lordxizor

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Don't fall into the trap of feeling like you need to listen to FLAC because people say it's lossless and sounds better. Chances are you don't have anything to play it on that will even make it matter. If you're using an iPod (and especially iPod headphones) just rip mp3s at 320 and you'll be good to go.

Offline ZBomber

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Be forwarned that lossless music takes up a lot of space. A LOT. An album in lossy/mp3 format might take 100 MB of space or so.... a lossless rip could be anywhere from 400-800 MB depending on the album. So, if you want to rip all of you music into lossless format, be prepared to spend a lot of money on storage.

As for 5.1/7.1, it is high quality lossless. New blu-ray 5.1 mixes are completely uncompressed. Digital does not always mean lossy.

Offline Orbert

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As for 5.1/7.1, it is high quality lossless.

This is incorrect.  DVDs with 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks have lossy soundtracks, as do many BDs.

New blu-ray 5.1 mixes are completely uncompressed.

This is correct, but it's not because they're Blu-ray and it's not just because they're new.  The codec is what matters.  Many BDs are still produced with Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks, which are lossy even though they're 5.1.

Digital does not always mean lossy.

This is correct.

Offline tjanuranus

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The best format if using iTunes is Apple Lossless Format. The sound quality is the same as WAV or AIFF but at half the size. If you are really concerned about size use the standard itunes import which is AAC. A 128 aac file is superior to a 127 mp3. Also i trip a lot of stuff at 320 mp3 if i want a smaller size but good sound quality.

Online Ben_Jamin

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I rip my cds on itunes in 320 AAC, to me it sounds better than MP3 and for some songs you can hear a significant change, like its more louder.
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Offline TheVoxyn

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What format should I use if I would hypothetically want the worst sound quality with the biggest file size?

Offline AcidLameLTE

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Just rip it at 128kbps MP3 and then convert into WAV, I guess.

Offline ZBomber

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As for 5.1/7.1, it is high quality lossless.

This is incorrect.  DVDs with 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks have lossy soundtracks, as do many BDs.

This is news to me. Why would they release 5.1 mixes in lossy? I've made by own 5.1 mixes of my own material, and I had no problem with it being lossless.

Offline ZirconBlue

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Purists always point to vinyl as the ultimate lossless medium, because unless the album went through a digital mastering or mixing phase, no information has been lost due to digital sampling.

Which is not really true.  No information is lost due to sampling, but vinyl is not good at reproducing certain frequency ranges, so when songs are mastered for vinyl, those frequency ranges are attenuated.  Therefore, in going from tape to vinyl, some information is lost.

This is one of the main reasons that the whole "vinyl sounds better than CD" meme got started:  The very first CD's were made from masters that were created for vinyl.  So, they had those lost frequency ranges, without the "warmth" (read: "noise") of vinyl.  They basically sounded like more sterile versions of the vinyl master.  Once they started remastering for CD, CDs started to sound much better.    Now, some people continue to prefer the sound of vinyl, especially if that's what they grew up with, but CD's are actually more true to the original recorded sound.

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Have you tried turning it off and on again?

Offline Orbert

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As for 5.1/7.1, it is high quality lossless.

This is incorrect.  DVDs with 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks have lossy soundtracks, as do many BDs.

This is news to me. Why would they release 5.1 mixes in lossy? I've made by own 5.1 mixes of my own material, and I had no problem with it being lossless.

DVDs came before Blu-rays.  Having a surround mix at all was awesome sauce when DVDs were the best you could get, but they still had limitations.  Lossless surround wasn't possible on DVD because the DVD specification didn't allow for it.  You had to go to DVD-A or SACD for that.  With Blu-rays, and the inherent leap in storage space and focus on hi-def video, it made sense to allow for lossless audio as well, so they did.

But as I said, there's nothing wrong with Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1.  I still have a lot more DVDs than I do Blu-rays, and they sound fine.


Which is not really true.  No information is lost due to sampling

Of course it is.  Sampling, no matter how high the sampling rate, is still discrete.  You can take 1000 or 1,000,000 samples per second and you have still lost information compared to analog which is a continuous stream.  At a certain point it becomes moot and you can't possibly hear the difference, but that doesn't mean it's not there.  That's why I said that CD has become the de facto lossless standard; it's only lossless compared to, say, a 128k mp3 rip.  If they can produce SACDs with 16 times the information of a standard CD (or whatever it is; I'm not sure), then obviously the regular CD is missing some information.

Offline ZBomber

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As for 5.1/7.1, it is high quality lossless.

This is incorrect.  DVDs with 5.1 or 7.1 soundtracks have lossy soundtracks, as do many BDs.

This is news to me. Why would they release 5.1 mixes in lossy? I've made by own 5.1 mixes of my own material, and I had no problem with it being lossless.

DVDs came before Blu-rays.  Having a surround mix at all was awesome sauce when DVDs were the best you could get, but they still had limitations.  Lossless surround wasn't possible on DVD because the DVD specification didn't allow for it.  You had to go to DVD-A or SACD for that.  With Blu-rays, and the inherent leap in storage space and focus on hi-def video, it made sense to allow for lossless audio as well, so they did.

But as I said, there's nothing wrong with Dolby Digital 5.1 or DTS 5.1.  I still have a lot more DVDs than I do Blu-rays, and they sound fine.


I'm a little confused, are we talking about the same thing? I know that a lot of movie soundtracks are MP3, because it has video and I'm assuming they wouldn't be able to fit lossless soundtracks on there, but I was talking about the 5.1 mixes of albums, specifically DVD-A (Stupid Dream, FOABP, Duke etc etc). I just find it hard to imagine that a DVD-A wouldn't be able to utilize lossless audio.

Offline ZirconBlue

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Which is not really true.  No information is lost due to sampling

Of course it is.  Sampling, no matter how high the sampling rate, is still discrete.  You can take 1000 or 1,000,000 samples per second and you have still lost information compared to analog which is a continuous stream.  At a certain point it becomes moot and you can't possibly hear the difference, but that doesn't mean it's not there.  That's why I said that CD has become the de facto lossless standard; it's only lossless compared to, say, a 128k mp3 rip.  If they can produce SACDs with 16 times the information of a standard CD (or whatever it is; I'm not sure), then obviously the regular CD is missing some information.

I was agreeing with you.  On vinyl, no information is lost due to sampling (but, information is lost due to other constraints of the medium.)