Author Topic: Tolkien's other books  (Read 18192 times)

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Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #105 on: November 25, 2016, 08:51:47 AM »
Current generations should gain love of Tolkien through his words, not the Hollywood bastardizations of his stories.

100% agree with that.

Probably the most egregious change for me was Faramir's character. He is completely benevolent in the book, while his initial antagonism in the movie not only warps him at first, but also results in an unnecessary confrontation at Osgilliath whereby Sam has to once again prevent Frodo from being a pathetic loser by giving up. Only then does the cinematic Faramir see the forest for the trees, and I still don't see why that conflict was necessary.

You're right about Faramir - I'd almost forgotten about that. I suppose they were trying to give him some sort of character arc, but he did come across as a lot less friendly than book Faramir.

Actually, just thinking about it, one other atrocity served up by The Hobbit movie was what they did with Radagast The Brown. He was one of my favourite minor characters from the book, and one that I always found intriguing. Such a disappointment to see him turned into yet another comic relief character. Rabbit sleigh? Seriously?

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #106 on: November 25, 2016, 11:53:52 AM »
First, I just wanted to say I love being able to discuss Tolkien with people who are obviously genuine fans of the master.

Second...just a few comments.   :biggrin:

I think I can just about forgive them for leaving out TB. I suppose it's the same with some of the other quirky elements, like the songs and poems, which work ok on the page, and are part of the charm of the book, but would just seem totally weird and distracting onscreen.

I love that they included the two songs in The Hobbit - Blunt the Knives and Misty Mountains. I also love the Green Dragon song Merry and Pippin sing in Return of the King.

I didn't like Galadriel's transformation into the evil witch queen thing. That was the first part that made me cringe and took me right out of the movie - in the book it was a lot more subtle.

Agreed. I think it was blatantly overdone. I love Cate Blanchett. She's uniquely beautiful and I love Galadriel's character. However, do you think she was the best choice for that role?

With the Hobbit, I think it started ok, but it took a real turn for the worse around the CGI-fest that happened in the Great Goblin's kingdom. I think I've said this before, but the worst part in the whole trilogy for me was Dain Ironfoot - terrible terrible terrible. They made him into a total pig-riding CGI buffoon.

The Shire scenes are some of the highlights of both trilogies. I just love how they live. It's a beautiful and peaceful place and what the hobbits represent in the grand scheme of things is so overlooked by many people.

Getting back on topic (sort of) - I see that Christopher Tolkien turned 92 a couple of days ago. Do you think the family's position will soften on releasing the right for future movie deals when he passes? I kind of hope not..

I seriously hope the family keeps the lock on the rights. Current generations should gain love of Tolkien through his words, not the Hollywood bastardizations of his stories. As great as the original trilogy is as an adaptation, it is NOT the same as the book, and, either by necessity or poetic license, does omit/change details. As for The Hobbit, forget it. Like John said, as a Tolkien-based piece I can watch and enjoy, sort of, bit it's a blatant departure from almost the entire story, with major plot and thematic changes.

I guess we would have to see who is next on the list and what their stance has been in the past. It would be so nice to see some of The Silmarillion done but it would be exceedingly difficult to get right.


There were only a few changes about the original trilogy that irked me. I was ok with the absence of the Borrow-wights, Old Man Willow, and TB. Without the written word, it would have taken too much exposition to explain them to the lay audience.

The swap of Glorfindel with Arwen didn't bother me much, but I have to say the overall reliance on Arwen's diminishing and their love as a plot device was a bit much.

I understand their reasons for not including what you mentioned. However, there is a scene with Old Man Willow in the extended editions. I would have loved to see how the Barrow-wights were done on the screen.

From what I read, the studio pushed PJ to give more attention to the love story. I think I believe that. PJ was always vocal for the changes he made and why he did it, so I don't think it's him shifting blame to save face.

Totally agreed about Frodo's character. He was not the whiny pissant be was portrayed as, and the "love" between him and Sam was actually one born of tremendous respect and loyalty, but the on-screen portrayal bordered on romance.

I enjoyed that closeness between Frodo and Sam. I guess to some it borderlined on being seen as a bit on the gay side, but I think that's just because many people are too uneasy admitting something like that was touching.

Probably the most egregious change for me was Faramir's character. He is completely benevolent in the book, while his initial antagonism in the movie not only warps him at first, but also results in an unnecessary confrontation at Osgilliath whereby Sam has to once again prevent Frodo from being a pathetic loser by giving up. Only then does the cinematic Faramir see the forest for the trees, and I still don't see why that conflict was necessary.

I concur. That was just a wasted plot device. That's time that could have went towards Ghan-Buri-Ghan or someone else. Tom Bombadil


Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #107 on: November 25, 2016, 05:19:31 PM »
First, I just wanted to say I love being able to discuss Tolkien with people who are obviously genuine fans of the master.

Yeah, it's nice to dig into some of this stuff that would otherwise bore the life out of friends and coworkers  :lol

I love Cate Blanchett. She's uniquely beautiful and I love Galadriel's character. However, do you think she was the best choice for that role?

Personally I thought she was spot on for the role. I can't think anyone better for it right now. I just think they got the tone of her character slightly wrong in parts. She seemed a lot more menacing and morally ambiguous in the movie than in the book. It was maybe the slowed down dialogue, or the sudden closeups ("Welcome Frodo, one who has seen THE EYE"), that made her seem quite harsh. In the book you get a sense of her power, but it was very subtly done. It was harder then to reconcile that harsh tone with Gimli's almost infatuation with her ("I have looked last upon that which is fairest"). I think the EE helped a little to smooth that over, especially with the gift giving scenes.

Totally agreed about Frodo's character. He was not the whiny pissant be was portrayed as, and the "love" between him and Sam was actually one born of tremendous respect and loyalty, but the on-screen portrayal bordered on romance.

I enjoyed that closeness between Frodo and Sam. I guess to some it borderlined on being seen as a bit on the gay side, but I think that's just because many people are too uneasy admitting something like that was touching.

I think this one is widely misunderstood. The relationship between Frodo and Sam mirrors the relationship between an officer in the British army in WWII and his "batman", which JRRT would have been very familiar with.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Samwise_Gamgee#Commentary

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #108 on: November 25, 2016, 05:51:51 PM »
I think Cate is very pretty, too, but it's a very subdued, elegant beauty, not the kind that just blows you away on first glance.  I didn't think she was right for Galadriel because Galadriel was supposed to be that absolute epitome of beauty, such that anyone from any of Middle-earth's peoples (elves, dwarves, hobbits, men) just go "My God, what a beautiful lady!" the moment they lay eyes on her.  But I'm sure people who do find Cate to be the absolute epitome of beauty thought she was great.  Either way, I agree that that "dark" scene of hers was over the top.

I get the relationship between Frodo and Sam, and in the U.S. armed forces there's a similar relationship between an officer and his sergeant.  I think of Sean Connery and Jack Warden in The Presidio.  A very close relationship based on 100% trust and respect.  It's just that in the LOTR films, it came across as a bit more than that.  Connery and Warden, being "manly men" could literally profess their love for each other (spoiler: they do not) and it would be seen as platonic and heterosexual all the way.  Elijah Wood and Sean Astin did not have the gravitas or whatever it takes to get that across.  People from everywhere on the spectrum picked up a vibe, so even if it is a misinterpretation of their relationship, it's at least partly the fault of the acting and directing if that many people picked it up.

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #109 on: November 25, 2016, 07:01:56 PM »
One of the things that irks me personally, though I admit maybe only really diehard Tolkien fans would notice it, let alone be bothered by it, is the disappearance of the 17 years between Bilbo's departure from the Shire and Frodo's departure. While in reality it makes little difference to the movie narrative of the original trilogy, it allows for a massive plot fuckup (in my opinion, which I know is probably unpopular didn't this being overwhelongly nitpicky) at the end of the Hobbit films.

Near the conclusion of the Hobbit films, Thranduil enigmatically tells Legolas to go pursue Aragorn, only hinting at his importance, and only calling him a ranger named Strider. In real Tolkien history, at the time of the Battle of Five Armies, Aragorn was still a child living in Rivendell, and only Elrond knew of his lineage. As such, he had not yet left to become a Ranger, and no one could have known of his actual importance yet, certainly not Thranduil.

Without those 17 years, it is suddenly possible for Thranduil to potentially possibly know, although if memory serves me correctly, Legolas had never met or known if Aragorn prior to the Council of Elrond, which is another hole.

Yes I'm aware this is nitpicky and that the last majority of moviegoers won't know or care, and that it allows for some sort of continuity between the movies. But also, Legolas wasn't a named part of the Hobbit to begin with, so in the end the whole thing breaks down from a purist's viewpoint.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #110 on: November 26, 2016, 08:48:51 AM »
The 17 years didn't bother me as much as Thranduil's lines at the end of The Hobbit.  It was just one more way for PJ to link the two trilogies together, and it was completely unnecessary.

What bugged me even more was that in the book, Strider spends a fair amount of time as Strider, a mysterious Ranger who seems to be helping them out, but could easily have his own agenda.  We don't know.  They're much farther along in the adventure before he is revealed to be Aragorn.  In the movie, he's Strider for about five seconds and then it's basically "But you can call me Aragorn.  I'm the king, returned, you see, but let's not tell anyone, okay?"

Offline Skeever

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #111 on: November 26, 2016, 09:12:36 AM »
I used to gobble up every new "Tolkien" book, but recently I've stopped feeling it to be necessary. Seems like Christopher has ran out of documents to recover, and now he's taken to republishing stories in the Silmarillion as neat little standalone novels, complete with the obligatory Alan Lee illustrations. Not that I'm against the guy making a buck, per se, but there was a time when I was actively excited about these publications. Not anymore.

Could be worse, though. As others have noted, Christopher and the family have done a good job maintaining the quality of the material that is out there. They have managed to not let it be watered down at all. It could be far worse. They could be enlisting Kevin J. Anderson to write up sequel and prequel trilogies. So I guess we can be thankful for that.

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #112 on: November 26, 2016, 10:48:29 AM »
The 17 years didn't bother me as much as Thranduil's lines at the end of The Hobbit.  It was just one more way for PJ to link the two trilogies together, and it was completely unnecessary.

What bugged me even more was that in the book, Strider spends a fair amount of time as Strider, a mysterious Ranger who seems to be helping them out, but could easily have his own agenda.  We don't know.  They're much farther along in the adventure before he is revealed to be Aragorn.  In the movie, he's Strider for about five seconds and then it's basically "But you can call me Aragorn.  I'm the king, returned, you see, but let's not tell anyone, okay?"

The 17 years were a non issue until Thranduils lines, to be honest. Only then did their significance come into play for me.

There were a lot of things that I think were "sacrificed", for lack of a better word, in order to not lose or confuse the lay audience. Granted I don't really know what extending the anonymity of Aragorn would have hurt, but some things I can excuse. The things that really pissed me off were things that fundamentally changed the Tolkien universe or mythology.

I just find it so enthralling that one man's personal creative obsession ws so involved, so developed, and so compelling that it almost becomes like researching a real history. I'm also slightly envious of Tolkien's creative depth and dedication to build something so monumental.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #113 on: November 26, 2016, 09:34:06 PM »

I love Cate Blanchett. She's uniquely beautiful and I love Galadriel's character. However, do you think she was the best choice for that role?

Personally I thought she was spot on for the role. I can't think anyone better for it right now. I just think they got the tone of her character slightly wrong in parts. She seemed a lot more menacing and morally ambiguous in the movie than in the book. It was maybe the slowed down dialogue, or the sudden closeups ("Welcome Frodo, one who has seen THE EYE"), that made her seem quite harsh. In the book you get a sense of her power, but it was very subtly done. It was harder then to reconcile that harsh tone with Gimli's almost infatuation with her ("I have looked last upon that which is fairest"). I think the EE helped a little to smooth that over, especially with the gift giving scenes.

That's what I was feeling. Those close-ups and vocal fluctuations made her seem like someone off their rocker. I did not get that all-powerful sense from her...for the most part.


I think this one is widely misunderstood. The relationship between Frodo and Sam mirrors the relationship between an officer in the British army in WWII and his "batman", which JRRT would have been very familiar with.

https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Samwise_Gamgee#Commentary

Thanks for the link. I never read that before, though I've been on that site multiple times.

I think Cate is very pretty, too, but it's a very subdued, elegant beauty, not the kind that just blows you away on first glance.  I didn't think she was right for Galadriel because Galadriel was supposed to be that absolute epitome of beauty, such that anyone from any of Middle-earth's peoples (elves, dwarves, hobbits, men) just go "My God, what a beautiful lady!" the moment they lay eyes on her.  But I'm sure people who do find Cate to be the absolute epitome of beauty thought she was great.  Either way, I agree that that "dark" scene of hers was over the top.

Agreed. I think there were better choices for her role as far as finding someone with that absolute beauty and, like I said above, emanating that sense of power.

I get the relationship between Frodo and Sam, and in the U.S. armed forces there's a similar relationship between an officer and his sergeant.  I think of Sean Connery and Jack Warden in The Presidio.  A very close relationship based on 100% trust and respect.  It's just that in the LOTR films, it came across as a bit more than that.  Connery and Warden, being "manly men" could literally profess their love for each other (spoiler: they do not) and it would be seen as platonic and heterosexual all the way.  Elijah Wood and Sean Astin did not have the gravitas or whatever it takes to get that across.  People from everywhere on the spectrum picked up a vibe, so even if it is a misinterpretation of their relationship, it's at least partly the fault of the acting and directing if that many people picked it up.

I don't necessarily blame it on the acting/directing. The characters were like that in the book.  They portrayed that closeness exceedingly well. I don't think it was as much an misinterpretation of their relationship as it was an inability to understand how men can feel that closeness as friends without it automatically being considered gay.

One of the things that irks me personally, though I admit maybe only really diehard Tolkien fans would notice it, let alone be bothered by it, is the disappearance of the 17 years between Bilbo's departure from the Shire and Frodo's departure. While in reality it makes little difference to the movie narrative of the original trilogy, it allows for a massive plot fuckup (in my opinion, which I know is probably unpopular didn't this being overwhelongly nitpicky) at the end of the Hobbit films.

Near the conclusion of the Hobbit films, Thranduil enigmatically tells Legolas to go pursue Aragorn, only hinting at his importance, and only calling him a ranger named Strider. In real Tolkien history, at the time of the Battle of Five Armies, Aragorn was still a child living in Rivendell, and only Elrond knew of his lineage. As such, he had not yet left to become a Ranger, and no one could have known of his actual importance yet, certainly not Thranduil.

Without those 17 years, it is suddenly possible for Thranduil to potentially possibly know, although if memory serves me correctly, Legolas had never met or known if Aragorn prior to the Council of Elrond, which is another hole.

Yes I'm aware this is nitpicky and that the last majority of moviegoers won't know or care, and that it allows for some sort of continuity between the movies. But also, Legolas wasn't a named part of the Hobbit to begin with, so in the end the whole thing breaks down from a purist's viewpoint.

Aragorn was 10 during the Battle of the Five Armies, so you're right. Elrond didn't tell him about his heritage until he was in his 20s so there's no way for Thranduil to have known about him, unless it was something the two leaders exchanged with each other during a meeting. That's not documented, as far as I know, so it's a mistake on PJ's part.

It is possible that Aragorn met Legolas before the Council of Elrond. Remember, Aragorn brought Gollum to Mirkwood after he captured him and asked Thranduil to hold him captive. It's possible Legolas met him then.

I just find it so enthralling that one man's personal creative obsession ws so involved, so developed, and so compelling that it almost becomes like researching a real history. I'm also slightly envious of Tolkien's creative depth and dedication to build something so monumental.

I have the same thoughts. It makes you wonder just how much more he contemplated before coming up with what we read in the books. How many characters did he remove? How many plot lines did he abandon? How far into the Fourth Age did he write about?

Offline Skeever

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #114 on: November 26, 2016, 09:52:54 PM »
Is their any evidence he wrote into the Fourth Age?

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #115 on: November 26, 2016, 09:57:31 PM »
All I've seen are random details about the first couple of hundred years.

Offline Skeever

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #116 on: November 26, 2016, 09:59:23 PM »
It'd be interesting to read those. In fact, much more interesting than what Christopher has been spending the last 10 years or so publishing, so I'm thinking there probably isn't enough written down to warrant a release.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #117 on: November 26, 2016, 10:25:19 PM »
What I do know is that the Fourth Age speaks about Aragorn's rule, his children, his death, and Arwen's death. It talks about what became of some of the members of the fellowship. I don't know if any of the books in the History of Middle Earth delves into the Fourth Age at all. I was seriously considering starting my fantasy world as a sort of continuation of that age. Not using Tolkien's characters, but my own, and having that same aura. When you think about it, there are a lot of fantasy books inspired by Tolkien, but how many have that same aura? It really is quite unique.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #118 on: November 27, 2016, 04:14:19 PM »
It is possible that Aragorn met Legolas before the Council of Elrond. Remember, Aragorn brought Gollum to Mirkwood after he captured him and asked Thranduil to hold him captive. It's possible Legolas met him then.

You're probably right, though it is still unknown, to my knowledge, if Legolas knew him as anyone other than a Ranger from the North. They could have met and Legolas not known his true bloodline. The movie scene at the Council of Elrond certainly makes it appear as if Legolas knows this, but I do not believe such an exchange is in the text. It all comes down to only a very select few knowing of Aragorn's bloodline.


I might be mistaken, but isn't the majority of Tolkien's work on the Fourth Age contained with the appendices of LotR?
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #119 on: November 27, 2016, 04:49:38 PM »
It is possible that Aragorn met Legolas before the Council of Elrond. Remember, Aragorn brought Gollum to Mirkwood after he captured him and asked Thranduil to hold him captive. It's possible Legolas met him then.

You're probably right, though it is still unknown, to my knowledge, if Legolas knew him as anyone other than a Ranger from the North. They could have met and Legolas not known his true bloodline. The movie scene at the Council of Elrond certainly makes it appear as if Legolas knows this, but I do not believe such an exchange is in the text. It all comes down to only a very select few knowing of Aragorn's bloodline.


I might be mistaken, but isn't the majority of Tolkien's work on the Fourth Age contained with the appendices of LotR?

Pretty much. Though I am unsure of just how much is in ancillary sources.

As far as the Legolas/Aragorn thing, I don't know at what point Legolas found out about Aragorn. Perhaps the answer is in the Council of Elrond chapter in Fellowship. That is one of my favorite chapters in all of Tolkien's books just for the fact that there is so much information in it.

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #120 on: November 28, 2016, 04:02:11 AM »
I skimmed over The Council of Elrond chapter. In the book, it's Elrond that makes the announcement about Strider's true lineage. In the movie it's Legolas that says something like "This is no mere Ranger...". Book Legolas doesn't really have much to say for himself in that chapter.

That's a great chapter - so much back story is filled in, such as Gandalf explaining where he's been for those missing years between Bilbo's 111th birthday and Frodo setting off. (I agree that period of time seemed far too short in the movie.) You really start to get a sense of the size and hopelessness of the task in front of them.

One other thing that slightly annoyed me was the mistrust and animosity between Legolas and Gimli was played up for the movie, but it really isn't anything like that in the book. There's no Legolas eye roll when Gimli joins the Fellowship, for example.

I suppose it's back to this thing of dramatically emphasising things for the screen that were initially only subtly mentioned details in the book.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #121 on: November 28, 2016, 04:36:54 AM »
I am going to read through this: https://smile.amazon.com/Return-Shadow-History-Rings-Middle-Earth/dp/061808357X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480332899&sr=8-1&keywords=Tolkien+return+of+the+shadow

It's part of the History Of Middle Earth series but it's during the time of Fellowship. There could be more details about Strider/Aragorn and maybe some other things. I've had it on my to-read list for a while now. I saw it yesterday when I was cleaning and said that I have to read it soon. So, after my test Wednesday I am going to crack it open and see what I find.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #122 on: November 28, 2016, 04:45:47 AM »
Holy shit. I was just reading the description for part 12 in the History of Middle-Earth. It includes two abandoned stories. One of which is called, The New Shadow, which is set in the Fourth Age! Now I have to buy this one, like, right now! :blob:

https://smile.amazon.com/Peoples-Middle-Earth-History-Book-12/dp/0261103482/ref=pd_sim_14_6?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=57NTGE524F3CQGVJ87C7

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #123 on: November 28, 2016, 05:55:02 AM »
Interesting, though unfortunately it seems like it's pretty short - only 13 pages. https://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_New_Shadow

Is there any aspect of ME that you wish that Tolkien has written more on, or developed further? For me, the Istari always intrigued me. I would love to read an "origin story" on them - why did the Valar send them? What were their first missions? What about the two blue wizards that we don't hear much about?

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #124 on: November 28, 2016, 06:12:22 AM »
More about the Kingdoms of Men that Sauron corrupted. They feel a lot like bogeymen without much motivation, and I'd be interested as to how Sauron got to them. Did they try to resist, but failed? Where there noble men amongst them who just couldn't do enough?

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #125 on: November 28, 2016, 07:17:41 AM »
I'm ashamed to say I never finished The History boxed set. I borrowed it from a friend and only got a few volumes in before having to return it to him. It's been one of those "I really need to do this but not right now" things for years.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #126 on: November 28, 2016, 08:50:50 PM »
Interesting, though unfortunately it seems like it's pretty short - only 13 pages. https://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_New_Shadow

Is there any aspect of ME that you wish that Tolkien has written more on, or developed further? For me, the Istari always intrigued me. I would love to read an "origin story" on them - why did the Valar send them? What were their first missions? What about the two blue wizards that we don't hear much about?

Yes. I've always wondered what his intentions were with the Blue Wizards. Did he introduce them just to invite intrigue or did he eventually plan on giving them more of a background. We do know why the Istari were sent as a whole. I think that's discussed in The Silmarillion. They were sent to assist men and elves against evil.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #127 on: November 29, 2016, 06:47:26 AM »
More specifically, they were a direct response by the Valar to the continued corrupting presence of Sauron in Middle-earth. I always found it interesting how the only Istari whose fates we really know are Saruman (death) and Gandalf (into the West). By extrapolation, one would assume with Sauron's ultimate vanquishing, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando would also diminish into the West as well, considering their reason for being was also now gone. If memory serves me correctly, which admittedly is hearkening back many years to my last reading of it, I believe the only information regarding Radagast's future was that he wandered into the East, I had thought. Perhaps I am wrong and am thinking of the Blue Wizards.

I also wonder if Tolkien ever meant to elaborate further on the Eastern and Southern lands, beyond Mordor, such as Rhun and Khand. They only get passing references with regards to the Easterlings and various other Wild Men among other things, and it fuels my curiosity of, should he have lived another decade or so, would Tolkien have further enlarged his world, or simply further elaborated on what was already written.
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Offline Jarlaxle

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #128 on: November 29, 2016, 10:10:58 AM »
You guys have inspired me to read through all of Tolkien's works again, starting with the Silmarillion. Admittedly, the only time I ever read his non-Hobbit/LOTR books was years ago when I was in high school, and that was more of a cursory read through, and I didn't retain any of the information.

As for more of Tolkien's works being made into movies, from memory, the Silmarillion wouldn't work as a movie, but rather sections of it could, like say the tale of Beren and Luthien, or the Fall of Gondolin.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #129 on: November 29, 2016, 10:43:41 AM »
The thing with the Silmarillion is that is not really a narrative; its a history. There might be a beginning and an "end" so to speak, but the conflict and resolution is multifaceted, incredibly complicated, and layered. Every element builds on what precedes it and subsequently influences what follows. The emphasis on lineage and language would render it almost impossible to reduce to a layman's understanding for the average audience. I believe it would be absolutely amazing to be able to witness recreations of some of the scenes on the big screen, but I seriously question anyone's ability to condense any part of it down to a feature-length piece, even in trilogy form.

But seriously, an on-screen adaptation of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Fall of Gondolin, or the War of Wrath would be mindblowing, as would the battle between Huan and Carcharoth and many other conflicts.
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #130 on: November 29, 2016, 11:23:22 AM »
Yeah, I don't think it would work in any way as a traditional film.  Those scenes you mentioned would be glorious (IMAX 3D!), but other stuff wouldn't work as well.

If someone could come up with a non-traditional way to do it, that would be fantastic.  But I doubt very seriously that those rights ever become available.
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Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #131 on: November 29, 2016, 11:42:46 AM »
More specifically, they were a direct response by the Valar to the continued corrupting presence of Sauron in Middle-earth. I always found it interesting how the only Istari whose fates we really know are Saruman (death) and Gandalf (into the West). By extrapolation, one would assume with Sauron's ultimate vanquishing, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando would also diminish into the West as well, considering their reason for being was also now gone. If memory serves me correctly, which admittedly is hearkening back many years to my last reading of it, I believe the only information regarding Radagast's future was that he wandered into the East, I had thought. Perhaps I am wrong and am thinking of the Blue Wizards.

https://apilgriminnarnia.com/2014/12/10/wizards/

Interesting link about the Istari. By the sounds of it, Tolkien regarded Gandalf as the only one out of the five that succeeded in his mission. It seems that Radagast became too enamored with the birds and beasts of Middle Earth, and actually failed his mission, whatever it originally was. Doesn't seem like Tolkien mapped out much of the story of the two blues, but somehow that makes them more intriguing.

I also wondered about the other groups of Men, like the Haradim and the Corsairs of Umbar. They aren't fleshed out too much, but there is bound to be a whole lot of history between them and the people of Gondor.

BTW, I love how Tolkien makes real characters out of some of the creatures in Middle Earth, like Gwaihir, Ungoliant, Shelob, etc. JRR definitely had something against spiders!

Agreed on the Silmarillion as a movie. I don't know how you could craft any kind of 'conventional' story arc out of it.

You guys have inspired me to read through all of Tolkien's works again, starting with the Silmarillion. Admittedly, the only time I ever read his non-Hobbit/LOTR books was years ago when I was in high school, and that was more of a cursory read through, and I didn't retain any of the information.

Great stuff! Happy reading! I'm still on my re-read of LOTR, but am loving being back in that world again.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #132 on: November 29, 2016, 11:49:57 AM »
Tolkien's character development is almost second to no one. Nearly every character, major or minor, has a traceable lineage, definitive history, naming convention common with his origins, and it is all consistent. I could spend hours thumbing through the appendices of the Silmarillion, flipping back and forth between it, the story, and the various family trees associated with it. Everything is mapped out, the timelines are coherent and cohesive, the relationships all plausible, and he managed to do it all without seeming like he stole an idea from anyone or anything. He built on his passions of linguistics and mythology and created something literally out of this world. It's staggering.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #133 on: November 29, 2016, 09:16:28 PM »
More specifically, they were a direct response by the Valar to the continued corrupting presence of Sauron in Middle-earth. I always found it interesting how the only Istari whose fates we really know are Saruman (death) and Gandalf (into the West). By extrapolation, one would assume with Sauron's ultimate vanquishing, Radagast, Alatar, and Pallando would also diminish into the West as well, considering their reason for being was also now gone. If memory serves me correctly, which admittedly is hearkening back many years to my last reading of it, I believe the only information regarding Radagast's future was that he wandered into the East, I had thought. Perhaps I am wrong and am thinking of the Blue Wizards.


It was just the Blue Wizards that wandered into the east. Radagast lived near Mirkwood for a time and grew close with the animals there, especially the eagles.

The thing with the Silmarillion is that is not really a narrative; its a history. There might be a beginning and an "end" so to speak, but the conflict and resolution is multifaceted, incredibly complicated, and layered. Every element builds on what precedes it and subsequently influences what follows. The emphasis on lineage and language would render it almost impossible to reduce to a layman's understanding for the average audience. I believe it would be absolutely amazing to be able to witness recreations of some of the scenes on the big screen, but I seriously question anyone's ability to condense any part of it down to a feature-length piece, even in trilogy form.

But seriously, an on-screen adaptation of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Fall of Gondolin, or the War of Wrath would be mindblowing, as would the battle between Huan and Carcharoth and many other conflicts.

Yeah, I don't think it would work in any way as a traditional film.  Those scenes you mentioned would be glorious (IMAX 3D!), but other stuff wouldn't work as well.

If someone could come up with a non-traditional way to do it, that would be fantastic.  But I doubt very seriously that those rights ever become available.

Seeing those events in 3D would be GLORIOUS. You're both right though. It would never work as a traditional film. However, and I think I mentioned this earlier, I wouldn't mind seeing some of those stories produced through high quality animation. Imagine how intriguing it would be to turn the Ainulindale into some dark Nightmare Before Christmas type creation as it takes us through the early days of Middle Earth.

Tolkien's character development is almost second to no one. Nearly every character, major or minor, has a traceable lineage, definitive history, naming convention common with his origins, and it is all consistent. I could spend hours thumbing through the appendices of the Silmarillion, flipping back and forth between it, the story, and the various family trees associated with it. Everything is mapped out, the timelines are coherent and cohesive, the relationships all plausible, and he managed to do it all without seeming like he stole an idea from anyone or anything. He built on his passions of linguistics and mythology and created something literally out of this world. It's staggering.

That is what I'm slowly doing. Maybe I'll never make the attempt to publish what I'm doing but I do find it interesting and exciting to create a whole world of characters.

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #134 on: November 30, 2016, 07:03:11 AM »
That is what I'm slowly doing. Maybe I'll never make the attempt to publish what I'm doing but I do find it interesting and exciting to create a whole world of characters.

Cool - do you think we'll get a chance to read any of your stuff?

Offline Jarlaxle

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #135 on: November 30, 2016, 07:43:42 PM »
That is what I'm slowly doing. Maybe I'll never make the attempt to publish what I'm doing but I do find it interesting and exciting to create a whole world of characters.

Approximately how much work have you done outside your "main story?" I'm doing the same thing, creating thousands of years of history, flesh out some major characters/hero(ines) of the past, different cultures, I've even created the basis of a very simplistic language (I took a couple linguistic classes in university and tried my hand at it -  it was a very interesting and fun experience). It's no Sindarin by any stretch of the imagination, but with just a little more knowledge on the subject and a lot more time to invest into fleshing it out it could easily be a believable language.

I have about 40 000 words typed up as history of the one kingdom in my world, the kingdom my book is based on. The majority of that has been done in the last year, and it's not even half way to where I want it to be.  :lol I do find creating history very engaging, and usually comes as a nice break if I need one from my main story, but it is a daunting task when I consider how large my world is and how many societies I would need to create a history for. Oh well, a problem for another time.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #136 on: November 30, 2016, 08:31:35 PM »
That is what I'm slowly doing. Maybe I'll never make the attempt to publish what I'm doing but I do find it interesting and exciting to create a whole world of characters.

Approximately how much work have you done outside your "main story?" I'm doing the same thing, creating thousands of years of history, flesh out some major characters/hero(ines) of the past, different cultures, I've even created the basis of a very simplistic language (I took a couple linguistic classes in university and tried my hand at it -  it was a very interesting and fun experience). It's no Sindarin by any stretch of the imagination, but with just a little more knowledge on the subject and a lot more time to invest into fleshing it out it could easily be a believable language.

I have pages upon pages of events in the history of the land, different races and creatures, and even some language experiments. I'm basing it off Sicilian which isn't easy to do because there are not a lot of books about the language. Sicilian isn't the same thing as Italian. It's older and closer to Latin. It's a beautiful language that is slowly disappearing. As far as storyline, I have random sentences on paper that are more like a puzzle than anything coherent. Since my writing does tend to be on the gloomy and obscure side, I'm hoping to come up with some really interesting characters. It'll be like taking Middle Earth and Westeros and putting them in a blender. The result is my world. I have about a dozen names written down for it. Nothing stands out yet.

I have about 40 000 words typed up as history of the one kingdom in my world, the kingdom my book is based on. The majority of that has been done in the last year, and it's not even half way to where I want it to be.  :lol I do find creating history very engaging, and usually comes as a nice break if I need one from my main story, but it is a daunting task when I consider how large my world is and how many societies I would need to create a history for. Oh well, a problem for another time.

That's awesome. Do you think you'll ever try and publish it?

That is what I'm slowly doing. Maybe I'll never make the attempt to publish what I'm doing but I do find it interesting and exciting to create a whole world of characters.

Cool - do you think we'll get a chance to read any of your stuff?

As soon as I can massage the knots out of it, yes. I'd definitely like to have a panel of critics.

Offline Jarlaxle

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #137 on: November 30, 2016, 10:21:23 PM »

I have about 40 000 words typed up as history of the one kingdom in my world, the kingdom my book is based on. The majority of that has been done in the last year, and it's not even half way to where I want it to be.  :lol I do find creating history very engaging, and usually comes as a nice break if I need one from my main story, but it is a daunting task when I consider how large my world is and how many societies I would need to create a history for. Oh well, a problem for another time.

That's awesome. Do you think you'll ever try and publish it?



I'd love to, but I think you'd have to become the Uber famous author before anyone wanted to read it enough to publish it, like Tolkien or GRRM.

A solution I've had, along with self-publishing it (which I would like to do regardless), would be to do a kickstarter for the self-publishing costs, and one of the levels of donations would be to get a manuscript of my history and characters, and assuming I'm not finished it when I get to that point, I would update them with any additions as they come.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #138 on: November 30, 2016, 10:31:27 PM »
There are so many authors nowadays that are using world-building as part of their storytelling. I don't see you having a problem with yours, especially if you go to a fantasy-oriented publisher like Tor. Gaining the type of popularity that Martin and Tolkien have in that genre is extremely rare. I'd say less than 1% of fantasy writers are well known. Plus, Tolkien released The Hobbit when he wasn't famous so you could also start off with a specific tale within your world.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #139 on: November 30, 2016, 10:34:47 PM »
Read this. This should be something we both jump on.

https://www.tor.com/submissions-guidelines/#Novella-Submissions-Guidelines