Author Topic: Tolkien's other books  (Read 18190 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Tolkien's other books
« on: May 05, 2011, 07:48:50 PM »
I know there have been a few LotR threads, but I'd love to discuss some of Tolkien's other work, like the Silmarillion, Children of Hurin (maybe the best Tolkien book, all things considered?), his translation of some Old and Middle English Epics, etc...

I bought "The Legend of Sigurd & Gurdun" yesterday and am about to snuggle down with it tonight. This will be the first time I've read for fun in a long time. Has anyone else read this book?

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2011, 07:55:20 PM »
I was a Tolkien nut back in the day.  I got through about half of the Silmarillion and then ended up skimming the rest.  I was young and burned out.  I've wanted to get around to The Legend of Sigurd & Gurdun, but the timing never quite felt right.  I've been sort of waiting for my interest in his writing to rekindle before I pick that one up.  But hell, maybe picking it up is what I need for that interest. 

Tell me how you like it, I tend to read a lot over the summer and I might get around to it then. 

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2011, 08:09:22 PM »
Well, it's a poem. I'm not sure if you'd been into that?

But you should check out The Children of Hurin. It's awesome, very good as a more-or-less "stand-alone" Tolkien novel. It's pretty much the best part of Silmarillion but not written like a history book.

Offline Gadough

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2011, 08:15:59 PM »
Is The Silmarillion connected to LOTR in any way? Is it even set in Middle Earth? I've always been confused about this.
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Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2011, 08:18:23 PM »
Is The Silmarillion connected to LOTR in any way? Is it even set in Middle Earth? I've always been confused about this.

Seriously, reading any source ever about the book would tell you that.  Yes, it's in Middle Earth.  It's pretty much a very in-depth description of that universe, and a lot of it is useful background that helps you understand LOTR/etc. better, while the rest of the content is very interesting on it's own, as well.

Offline ehra

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2011, 08:18:56 PM »
The Silmarillion is basically the creation/history of Middle Earth as told by the elves. "In universe," I think it's what becomes the book of elvish stories that Bilbo translates while he's in Rivendell. Similar to how LOTR is There And Back Again.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2011, 08:22:16 PM »
Is The Silmarillion connected to LOTR in any way? Is it even set in Middle Earth? I've always been confused about this.

Kind of. As a result of the events that take place in the Silmarillion, Middle Earth needs to be rebuilt mostly so the world actually isn't that similar geographically. But some of the characters appear in both. Sauron is like the number 2 bad guy of the Silmarillion's main bad guy.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 08:34:42 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline Ħ

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2011, 08:46:03 PM »
I've been wanting to try this for a while.  Do you think it's better to read

a) in chronological order? (ex Similarian -> The Hobbit -> LOTR)

or

b) in order it was published?

I like "a" because it has a continuity aspect, but I like "b" because it seems like that's how Tolkein would have wanted his works to be read (a la Star Wars ep IV coming first).
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Offline glaurung

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2011, 08:49:26 PM »
If you haven't read The Hobbit/LOTR yet do not read the Silmarillion. Because of the way it's written and the sheer volume of names it might scare you off.
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Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2011, 08:50:02 PM »
I've been wanting to try this for a while.  Do you think it's better to read

a) in chronological order? (ex Similarian -> The Hobbit -> LOTR)

or

b) in order it was published?

I like "a" because it has a continuity aspect, but I like "b" because it seems like that's how Tolkein would have wanted his works to be read (a la Star Wars ep IV coming first).

It's up to you, but the Similarian is a very large and daunting undertaking for being your first Tolkien book.  (I assume it is)  Don't start with that one. 

Between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings there is not really a right answer, but I would say to go for the Hobbit.  Tolkien's style of writing and the adventurous mood of that book was what got me into Tolkien, and it remains my favorite.   

Offline Ħ

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2011, 08:51:12 PM »
I read LOTR a long time ago, and just finished The Hobbit a week ago.  I was just thinking about starting over to get the full effect.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2011, 08:54:44 PM »
Ah, ok.  I don't think there's really any "right order" to the books in any way.  It's really up to you, but I'd say b.  The Similarian would be a much better read if LOTR was fresh in your mind. 

Offline glaurung

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2011, 08:56:53 PM »
You could give The Silmarillion a shot then. It reads like a verbal history book so it's kind of a love it or hate it kind of thing. I'm just glad there was a index of names in the back for my first reading. :lol
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2011, 08:58:21 PM »
I love Tolkien, I really do...

...but the Silmarillion is the most boring thing I've ever read.
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2011, 09:00:20 PM »
By the way, off topic, but the fourth Eragon book was announced and is coming out soon.  I used to love Eragon....but well....after I got a bit smarter I realized how bad it was.  Which makes me feel even more guilty about being excited for number 4.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2011, 09:10:55 PM »
By the way, off topic, but the fourth Eragon book was announced and is coming out soon.  I used to love Eragon....but well....after I got a bit smarter I realized how bad it was.  Which makes me feel even more guilty about being excited for number 4.

By the time I was 15, I could tell how obviously the second book ripped off Star Wars.  I still haven't read the third one.
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Offline glaurung

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2011, 09:19:09 PM »
I love Tolkien, I really do...

...but the Silmarillion is the most boring thing I've ever read.

I used to love you...

...not anymore.
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Offline ClairvoyantCat

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2011, 09:26:18 PM »
By the way, off topic, but the fourth Eragon book was announced and is coming out soon.  I used to love Eragon....but well....after I got a bit smarter I realized how bad it was.  Which makes me feel even more guilty about being excited for number 4.

Ew.  No place whatsoever in a Tolkien thread

Offline Aramatheis

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2011, 09:55:34 PM »
Well I'm a bit of a LOTR nut, and The Silmarillion is by far my favourite book.

So here's what's up; The Silmarillion is a collection of "books" or "parts" that explain how the world began with "The One" who created the gods (Valar and Maiar), who then all worked together to create the world in it's entirety (Beleriand, Middle-Earth, etc.).

The story explains how one of the gods (the most powerful one) goes rogue and decides to take over, and he becomes the antagonist of the novel (Sauron was his number one minion).

What follows is how the elves live in Beleriand (the land to the west of Middle-Earth; it eventually becomes broken by war and disappears) and how they cope/battle with the rogue god (Morgoth), his followers, and with themselves. Later on, the race of men (the second-born) join the party as well. Stuff happens, you can read the rest.


All in all, the Silmarillion concerns the shaping of the world, as well as the history of the elves and of the ancient races of men. It's chock full of great stories of battles and legendary persons. The history about the entire world is, for me, the best part. You learn how things came to be in Middle-Earth, what the elves were like in their glory days, how the races of men were and such.


And I would love to chat about it at any time, PC. Feel free to pm me, and thanks for starting this thread!

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2011, 10:48:57 PM »
I love Tolkien, I really do...

...but the Silmarillion is the most boring thing I've ever read.

I used to love you...

...not anymore.

:'(
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2011, 11:12:51 PM »
The Silmarillion is awesome!  I've read it twice, and will probably hit it again.  But I picked up Children of Hurin and have to finish that first.

I suggest the following order:

1. The Hobbit
2. The Lord of the Rings
3. The Silmarillion
4. Any others, including The Tolkien Reader, Lost Tales, and The Children of Hurin.

The Hobbit was originally written as a children's story, but children's stories back then were not necessarily light reading, and JRRT wrote one hell of a children's story.  The Lord of the Rings is much more serious in tone and much broader in scope.  It was written after, and is meant to dig deeper into the ring lore.  Bilbo's magic ring turns out to be much more than the trinket he thought it was, etc.

The Silmarillion is the history of Middle Earth and was published after The Lord of the Rings but JRRT had been working on it longer.  The Lord of the Rings, the book(s), has a lot of singing and folklore cut out of the movies, but many stories from The Silmarillion are the bases for the songs and poems in The Lord of the Rings.  There is also a lot concerning the original rings of power.  The One Ring from The Lord of the Rings is "one ring to rule them all" but we don't know anything about the others.

So basically go in order of publication.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2011, 11:15:48 PM »
Thanks Orbert!  By the way, I like how you noted that The Lord of the Rings is a single book and not a trilogy.
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Offline YtseBitsySpider

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2011, 04:40:38 AM »
The Silmarillion is an exceptionally boring read.....like most history books are...but alot if not all..is essential to understanding why certain factions behave the way they do. Why the deep distrust of the elves exists.  For instance....she-lob didn't just..materialize out of thin air....even her history..and her ancestry is richly explained...she came from a line of very..VERY bad spiders.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2011, 07:25:55 AM »
Thanks Orbert!  By the way, I like how you noted that The Lord of the Rings is a single book and not a trilogy.

Yeah I decided to flip it open last week 'cause I hadn't read it since before the movies or something and I was really surprised to learn that.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2011, 07:43:32 AM »
The Silmarillion is really boring.

And even worse, doesn't have a complete map!
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Offline Jirpo

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2011, 07:55:54 AM »
I love Tolkien, and as good as all the other books are (The Hobbit, Silmarillion, Children of Hurin), The Lord of the Rings is always my favourite :)

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2011, 08:10:01 AM »
Just finished the Sigurd poem.

Man, that was dense. I have very little idea as to what actually happened. Guess I'd better try again!

Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2011, 11:12:13 AM »
JRRT wanted The Lord of the Rings published as a single volume as it's just one long story.  In fact, he divided the story into five "books" internally.  Publishers insisted on breaking it into three volumes so that they'd sell more books, because people would still be more likely to purchase three books, one at a time, than one really expensive book which is also huge and unwieldy.  People who like to sit in bed or a chair or on the couch with a paperback know that it's a very different experience with a five-pound hardcover book.

I think "The Fellowship of the Ring" was really Books I and II, "The Two Towers" was Books III and IV, and "The Return of the King" was Book V plus the Appendices.  I have a nice hardcover version of the whole thing, but it's literally just for show.  I've never read it, because it's a pain in the ass to deal with.  I just pull out my old paperbacks.

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2011, 12:39:15 PM »
I've read much of almost all of Tolkien's writings that I've been able to find. The Lost Tales and The Silmarillion remain my favorite of his works. The depth and breadth of his world is mindboggling. I love how his stories have this feeling of reality, thanks to the in-depth development of his languages and his consistency in mythology.

The Silmarillion is basically the creation myth of Middle-earth, how the Valar came to be, how Iluvatar brought Elves and Men into being. It basically outlines the history of the Elves in Middle-earth, including the rise and fall of Morgoth and the various dominions in the Elvish world.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2011, 04:42:34 PM »
I need to try reading The Silmarillion again. I started it when I was 14, and couldn't grasp it. I was, at the time, I huge Tolkien fan... fueled by a girl I was falling for at the time...

Don't touch the Silmarillion until you are comfortable with The Hobbit and LOTR...

That would be like trying to digest Scenes from a Memory completely without ever hearing any other DT...

wait that doesnt work
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2011, 11:07:32 PM »
The Silmarillion is the heaviest Tolkien of all, or at least the heaviest I've encountered so far.  Yes, it's a history book more than a story book, but it is still written in narrative form, and despite the much drier delivery, I still found the subject matter itself to be fascinating, more than enough to keep me reading.

But I can understand it when people call it boring or just too difficult to get through.

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2011, 05:13:13 AM »
I've read a lot of Tolkein, and The Silmarillion was the toughest to make it through, but I found it quite enjoyable.

If memory serves, Tolkein wanted the third volume of LOTR to be titled The War of the Ring, because he felt that The Return of the King gave away the ending.  But the publisher overruled him.
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Offline Jirpo

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2011, 05:22:13 AM »
I've read a lot of Tolkein, and The Silmarillion was the toughest to make it through, but I found it quite enjoyable.

If memory serves, Tolkein wanted the third volume of LOTR to be titled The War of the Ring, because he felt that The Return of the King gave away the ending.  But the publisher overruled him.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2011, 06:26:00 AM »
Another interesting fact:

When I was in junior high back in the 70's, The Lord of the Rings was going through one of its popular phases and it seemed like everybody was carrying around one of the books, either The Hobbit or one of the three volumes of LOTR.  There were many discussions about them, of course, at the bus stop, at lunch, during study periods, etc.  One of the big topics, for people who had finished it, was how cool it was that Aragorn, who we met as Strider the Ranger way back in Bree, turned out to be the king.  Wow!  What a cool twist.  We always knew there was something extra cool about him.

In other words, the title of the third volume somehow didn't give away the ending.  We knew the king was coming back, I guess, but apparently very few of us figured it out.

Offline Jirpo

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2011, 06:47:34 AM »
The title didn't give it away for me either :)