Where is Randy Savage?

[Dimitrius]

Oh god! I remember that promo now.

[Ben_Jamin]

Who feels like snapping into a Slim-Jim?

Had no idea about the SM thing. Pretty funny and stupid at the same time.

[toro]

Which WM are you referring to? Because after WM 12 (where HBK beat him in the iron man match) they never faced each other in another WM.

I guess it was 13 then.  Michaels was gonna be booked to face Hart and lose the title back to him, but he faked an injury and gave his corny ass promo about having to find his smile to avoid doing so. 

OH LOL. The one where he "cried" like a little bitch?

[hefdaddy42]

HHH?  Are you guys serious?  He wouldn't make my top 20, unless we are talking about guys who were very good at best, but booked themselves to look like the best ever because they married the boss' daughter. 

No, HHH is definitely great.  He has competed at the highest level for a long, long time against the very best in the business.  He can do it all.

And Michaels the best ever?  Really?  I think he is slightly overrated simply because many of his great matches came at a time (recently) where great matches on a regular basis are pretty hard to come by, so the good ones stand out.  But guys like Flair, Bret Hart, etc. used to have matches as good as Michaels' best ones on a daily basis, but because great matches happened frequently back then, each one didn't get a big deal made out of them. 

I don't think you can berate Michaels for a dearth of great matches if you're including Hogan in your Top 5.  Let's keep the playing field level, because Hogan couldn't have a great match if he attended one.

[LeeHarveyKennedy]

HHH?  Are you guys serious?  He wouldn't make my top 20, unless we are talking about guys who were very good at best, but booked themselves to look like the best ever because they married the boss' daughter. 

No, HHH is definitely great.  He has competed at the highest level for a long, long time against the very best in the business.  He can do it all.

And Michaels the best ever?  Really?  I think he is slightly overrated simply because many of his great matches came at a time (recently) where great matches on a regular basis are pretty hard to come by, so the good ones stand out.  But guys like Flair, Bret Hart, etc. used to have matches as good as Michaels' best ones on a daily basis, but because great matches happened frequently back then, each one didn't get a big deal made out of them. 

I don't think you can berate Michaels for a dearth of great matches if you're including Hogan in your Top 5.  Let's keep the playing field level, because Hogan couldn't have a great match if he attended one.

Way too many words, hef. All you had to say was this: Michaels and HHH never made a rap album like Be A Man.

[KevShmev]

HHH?  Are you guys serious?  He wouldn't make my top 20, unless we are talking about guys who were very good at best, but booked themselves to look like the best ever because they married the boss' daughter. 

No, HHH is definitely great.  He has competed at the highest level for a long, long time against the very best in the business.  He can do it all.
 

That same thing could be said about Randy Savage.  It might be true about HHH, but he still got there and stayed there because he was married to Stephanie McMahon.  That taints his legacy quite a bit, IMO.

And Michaels the best ever?  Really?  I think he is slightly overrated simply because many of his great matches came at a time (recently) where great matches on a regular basis are pretty hard to come by, so the good ones stand out.  But guys like Flair, Bret Hart, etc. used to have matches as good as Michaels' best ones on a daily basis, but because great matches happened frequently back then, each one didn't get a big deal made out of them. 

I don't think you can berate Michaels for a dearth of great matches if you're including Hogan in your Top 5.  Let's keep the playing field level, because Hogan couldn't have a great match if he attended one.

That is not true at all.  First off, Hogan actually had plenty of great matches, and secondly, Hogan actually could wrestle, as he always showed when he wrestled in Japan, but he didn't here in the States because fans didn't want to see him wrestle.  They wanted to see his pound an opponent into oblivion with fists, body slams, the boot to the face and the legdrop.  Besides, Hogan was like the most over wrestler ever in the 80s, so I have to question the sense of anyone who doesn't put him in not only the top 5, but the top 3.   I mean, if we are basing it off of wrestling ability and great matches, then we can't put legends like Austin and The Rock up there either, right?

[hefdaddy42]

Hogan was the biggest case of "right person, right place, right time" or "lightning in a bottle" in wrestling history.  He couldn't wrestle his way out of a paper bag.  I've seen some (admittedly not much) footage of him wrestling in Japan, and remain unimpressed.  IMO he wasn't much different than the Ultimate Warrior - he just wasn't batshit crazy like UW and knew how to make the most of his opportunities.

If I was ranking the most important wrestlers in history, I would surely rank him at or near the top.  But he couldn't crack the top 20 if I were ranking the BEST wrestlers in history.

[KevShmev]

hef, I usually agree with you, but I think you are way off base here.  

Did you actually watch wrestling in the 80s?  Hogan was similar to the Ultimate Warrior in that both were big strong guys who beat their opponents by simply overpowering them, but while the fans were nuts for the Warrior for a while, Hogan was over like no one else has ever been (except for probably Austin and maybe The Rock).  All he had to do was rip his shirt off and the fans went absolutely bananas.  Every single time.  Heels became hated big time simply by feuding with him.  Sure, his act got a bit tired in the early 90s, but for a 6 or 7 year stretch, Hogan owned the wrestling world like no one else ever has.  And to his credit, when the fans in WCW never really went crazy over him, he reinvented himself as the hated heel, Hollywood Hogan.

And to suggest that he was in the right place at the right time has it backwards.  Hogan didn't just happened to be the guy there when wrestling was on the way up; he was the main reason WHY wrestling's popularity went through the roof in the mid 80s.  Okay, Vince McMahon's vision was the other major reason, but without Hogan, it would have taken a lot longer for McMahon to realize his vision of making the WWF a national thing, instead of it remaining regional like the NWA.

[Dimitrius]

HHH?  Are you guys serious?  He wouldn't make my top 20, unless we are talking about guys who were very good at best, but booked themselves to look like the best ever because they married the boss' daughter. 

No, HHH is definitely great.  He has competed at the highest level for a long, long time against the very best in the business.  He can do it all.
 

That same thing could be said about Randy Savage.  It might be true about HHH, but he still got there and stayed there because he was married to Stephanie McMahon.  That taints his legacy quite a bit, IMO.

That might be a little true, but the WWE was gonna give Triple H a main event push before the events of the "curtain call" (and this was before Triple H and Stephanie were a thing). WWE couldn't punish Hall and Nash because they were leaving for the WCW, they couldn't punish HBK because he was the top guy in the company, so Triple H received the punishment. Got turned into a jobber, and as he was booked to win the KotR that year, they gave it to Stone Cold, who won, gave birth to Austin 3:16 and the rest is history. So maybe his marriage to Stephanie (and his lovely corner view office in Stamford) has some to do with his continued success, but it's not all.

[KevShmev]

That is all mostly true, but getting a main event push and becoming the one constant main event star for over 10 years is another.  I mean, Jack Swagger was given a main event push last year. I am not saying Helmsley wouldn't have been a star without marrying the boss' daughter, but you can't tell me that isn't why he remained at the top for so long.  Like I said before, he is very good, but he is no Hogan, Savage, Flair, Hart, Michaels, Rock or Austin.

[axeman90210]

And Michaels the best ever?  Really?  I think he is slightly overrated simply because many of his great matches came at a time (recently) where great matches on a regular basis are pretty hard to come by, so the good ones stand out.  But guys like Flair, Bret Hart, etc. used to have matches as good as Michaels' best ones on a daily basis, but because great matches happened frequently back then, each one didn't get a big deal made out of them.  Plus, I can't say Michaels is the best ever (or even top 5) simply because of his chicken shit move of faking an injury to avoid putting Bret over at WM (after Bret had put him over at the previous WM), as well as his role in the Montreal Screwjob.

I guess that behind the scenes stuff never bothered me because I was a young (~7) HBK fan and had no idea what happened when it went down, and didn't hear about it until years later. Also, I don't know how much I blame him for Montreal , if the boss was determined to take the belt off Bret, what was he supposed to do (although denying involvement afterwards was a bit chickenshit). Going back from Wrestlemania 19, if you compiled a list of the best Wrestlemania matches it would largely consist of his matches (Jericho, Angle, Flair, Undertaker x2), he even got a great match out of Cena (although their rematch on Raw that went for an hour was even better), and that doesn't even begin to touch all the great stuff he did before his back injury. Maybe I missed out on seeing all the guys that routinely had great matches back in the late 80s/early 90s, but all I know is that I don't think the Rock, Stone Cold, or Hogan's best match would be good enough to crack Shawn's top 5..

[hefdaddy42]

Did you actually watch wrestling in the 80s?

Oh, yes.  But I was an NWA fan a lot more than the WWF.  I mean, I watched WWF, but at the time, there was no way to attend the WWF (they didn't tour in the South at the time, and even for years afterward), whereas I could attend an NWA show whenever I wanted.  But like I said, I watched it on TV, and I can assure you that although the WWF had better TV production values, and glitz and bling, the level of actual wrestling ability was much, much higher in the NWA.  Of course, it could easily be argued that by the time we got to the early-to-mid 90s, that had reversed, especially with Turner's acquisition of the NWA and transforming it into WCW.

Hogan was similar to the Ultimate Warrior in that both were big strong guys who beat their opponents by simply overpowering them, but while the fans were nuts for the Warrior for a while, Hogan was over like no one else has ever been (except for probably Austin and maybe The Rock).  All he had to do was rip his shirt off and the fans went absolutely bananas.  Every single time.  Heels became hated big time simply by feuding with him.

Well, I'm not arguing with any of that.  And I think his level of popularity was actually higher than Austin and Rock - they were just the closest thing to it that we've seen since.

Sure, his act got a bit tired in the early 90s, but for a 6 or 7 year stretch, Hogan owned the wrestling world like no one else ever has.  And to his credit, when the fans in WCW never really went crazy over him, he reinvented himself as the hated heel, Hollywood Hogan.

Yes, again no argument.  He was incredibly cognizant and aware of every part of the business outside of the ring.  What to do, when to do it, marketing, booking, all of it.

And to suggest that he was in the right place at the right time has it backwards.  Hogan didn't just happened to be the guy there when wrestling was on the way up; he was the main reason WHY wrestling's popularity went through the roof in the mid 80s.  Okay, Vince McMahon's vision was the other major reason, but without Hogan, it would have taken a lot longer for McMahon to realize his vision of making the WWF a national thing, instead of it remaining regional like the NWA.

Hogan was a larger than life personality and guy who was given a push at the same time McMahon started his vision of Wrestlemania, bringing in celebrities and MTV at the same time.  It was a confluence of events at the right time, and he was the guy.  People became Hulk Hogan fans who didn't even follow wrestling.  I remember it well.  He made his remergence in the WWF in December 1983, and they gave him the belt in January 1984, Gorilla Monsoon said "Hulkamania is here!", McMahon started syndicating WWF programming in areas outside his traditional Northeast territory, then came the Rock N' Wrestling connection, and then Wrestlemania with Mr. T, Muhammad Ali, and Liberace.  Hogan was undoubtedly a star (see his time in the AWA, when he was screwed out of being champion by Verne Gagne), but the level he reached was due to a multitude of other things, not just him and his ability.

Long story short - Ric Flair baby 

[King Postwhore]

I quote radio listeners on a sports radio station in Boston whenever the wresting fan, Jim The Wrestling Goon comes on, "It's Fake you goof".

Oh and I saw Superfly Jimmy Snuka with the Wild Samoans in a tag team match in the  80's.  Yea, I loved it back then.

[KevShmev]

Ah, that's right, hef, I forgot about where you live affecting your view of Hogan, the NWA, etc.  You living in the south, which was a major NWA stronghold, says it all.   It seemed like the big NWA fans in the 80s really disliked everything about the WWF at the time (I remember how PWI and the other major wrestling magazines were so slanted towards the NWA, but the again, considering that McMahon wouldn't allow his wrestlers to be interviewed by them, I can't say I blamed them).  At the time, I enjoyed both; the flash and glitz of the WWF was neat, as was the old school feel and look of the NWA, especially since I grew up watching Wrestling at the Chase on Sunday mornings.

I totally agree that Hogan didn't do it all himself, but like I said before, McMahon's vision wouldn't have taken off so quickly without him.  It was perfect timing that McMahon was taking over just as Hogan was getting fed up with getting constantly screwed over by the AWA.

axeman, Michaels' denial of involvement was mostly what I was talking about before.  McMahon at least owned up to it immediately afterwards, but Michaels and HHH acted like gutless cowards backstage following the match, like they had nothing to do with it.  Michaels even swore to Bret in the locker room that he had no idea and that his hands were clean.

[hefdaddy42]

Ah, that's right, hef, I forgot about where you live affecting your view of Hogan, the NWA, etc.  You living in the south, which was a major NWA stronghold, says it all.   It seemed like the big NWA fans in the 80s really disliked everything about the WWF at the time (I remember how PWI and the other major wrestling magazines were so slanted towards the NWA, but the again, considering that McMahon wouldn't allow his wrestlers to be interviewed by them, I can't say I blamed them).  At the time, I enjoyed both; the flash and glitz of the WWF was neat, as was the old school feel and look of the NWA, especially since I grew up watching Wrestling at the Chase on Sunday mornings.

TBH, the history of pro wrestling is fascinating.  The NWA was at one time a confederation of otherwise independent regional wrestling promotions, each with its own champ (including, at one time, the WWF!), and the World Champion toured the various promotions defending the title.  The NWA board of directors (made up of the individuals who ran the various independent promotions) did the World Championship booking, but the champ had to also go along with it.  However, Flair was really the last champ to work under those conditions, as Jim Crockett, the owner of Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling, slowly bought out most of the other regional promotions to try to make the NWA a cohesive organization.  In those days, the champ had to put up $25,000 bond on the championship belt - that's why Flair took the belt with him when he went to the WWF, because the NWA wouldn't give him back his cash (and never did).

[Dimitrius]

That was around the time the Big Gold Belt was first introduced, right?

[hefdaddy42]

That was around the time the Big Gold Belt was first introduced, right?

No, that belt was introduced in 1985.  But Flair took it with him to the WWF in 1991, calling himself "the REAL World Champion."

[Tick]

I don't know who this guy is

Simply put, he is one of the best wrestling performers of all-time, and he was big back when wrestling was actually good (late 80s/90s).  In fact, after the Big Four of Hogan, Austin, Rock and Flair, I'd put Savage in the next tier of all-time greats. 

Sadly, though, he is all but ignored by Vince McMahon and the WWE now, because he supposedly slept with Stephanie McMahon (HHH's current wife) back when she was like 18 or something, and Vince hates him for it.

You left out a couple old school legends who must be mentioned. Andre The Giant and Bruno Samartino!

[axeman90210]

axeman, Michaels' denial of involvement was mostly what I was talking about before.  McMahon at least owned up to it immediately afterwards, but Michaels and HHH acted like gutless cowards backstage following the match, like they had nothing to do with it.  Michaels even swore to Bret in the locker room that he had no idea and that his hands were clean.

That's fair. I think that not finding out about what went down until *years* afterwards kind of dampened whatever impact learning about the screwjob had on my view of HBK. At the same time, that doesn't detract from what he could do between the ropes, and I don't think any of your big 4 besides Flair in his prime can touch him on in-ring ability.

[hefdaddy42]

axeman, Michaels' denial of involvement was mostly what I was talking about before.  McMahon at least owned up to it immediately afterwards, but Michaels and HHH acted like gutless cowards backstage following the match, like they had nothing to do with it.  Michaels even swore to Bret in the locker room that he had no idea and that his hands were clean.

That's fair. I think that not finding out about what went down until *years* afterwards kind of dampened whatever impact learning about the screwjob had on my view of HBK. At the same time, that doesn't detract from what he could do between the ropes, and I don't think any of your big 4 besides Flair in his prime can touch him on in-ring ability.

I agree.

[KevShmev]

axeman, Michaels' denial of involvement was mostly what I was talking about before.  McMahon at least owned up to it immediately afterwards, but Michaels and HHH acted like gutless cowards backstage following the match, like they had nothing to do with it.  Michaels even swore to Bret in the locker room that he had no idea and that his hands were clean.

That's fair. I think that not finding out about what went down until *years* afterwards kind of dampened whatever impact learning about the screwjob had on my view of HBK. At the same time, that doesn't detract from what he could do between the ropes, and I don't think any of your big 4 besides Flair in his prime can touch him on in-ring ability.

Okay, but few could touch Curt Hennig when it came to in-ring ability either, but he was never the world champion in the WWF or WCW/NWA.  In other words, when discussing the best of all-time in pro wrestling, you have to look at a lot more than just in-ring ability.  I mean, if in-ring ability was the end-all be-all, how did Hogan rule the wrestling world for so long?

Also, I forgot to address this yesterday:

Going back from Wrestlemania 19, if you compiled a list of the best Wrestlemania matches it would largely consist of his matches (Jericho, Angle, Flair, Undertaker x2), he even got a great match out of Cena (although their rematch on Raw that went for an hour was even better), and that doesn't even begin to touch all the great stuff he did before his back injury. Maybe I missed out on seeing all the guys that routinely had great matches back in the late 80s/early 90s, but all I know is that I don't think the Rock, Stone Cold, or Hogan's best match would be good enough to crack Shawn's top 5..

First off, having most of the best matches in every WM since 19 isn't saying much since great matches are really hard to come by anymore.  That is not taking away from Michaels' performance in some of those matches (the first Undertaker, Jericho and Angle matches were all terrific; the Flair one was average, yet everyone nutted over it just because it was Flair's last WWE match), but just saying that very few guys are giving us great matches anymore.  I mean, look at this year's WM: no Michaels, and while there were a few very good matches, not one came close to being great. 

As for your last point there, I disagree.  The Austin/Bret Hart submission match is as great as any match I've ever seen Michaels have.  In fact, if I had to do a top 5 matches list, not sure any Michaels match would be on there.  Bret Hart would have two (the Austin one and the SummerSlam one vs. Curt Hennig), and I could almost put all three matches Flair and Ricky Steamboat had in early '89.

[hefdaddy42]

Yes, those Flair/Steamboat matches were among the best of all time.

[Tick]

BOB BACKLUND!