Interesting behind-the-scenes insight into the music biz from Dave Meniketti

[bosk1]

Some interesting discussion here that is not directly relevant to DT, but pulls the curtain back and reveals a lot of inside information about the music industry and inter-band dynamics.  In a lot of ways, this reminds me of DT's Awake-FII history .  I thought it might be good reading for those who are interested in this sort of thing.  This is taken from a thread on Dave Meniketti's forum.  I included some of the fans' posts where necessary to get what Dave is responding to in various posts.

Anyone remember this or know where it is? Didn't the band have a closed door meeting in the early 80's (like Meanstreak time) where Management and/or record company wanted to bring in a frontman as a sole vocalist and Dave would move to "Lead Guitar"?

This was not a record company thing, this was an internal band thing. The 3 other guys, and our manager, had obviously discussed it amongst themselves and decided to replace me as the singer because I wasn't cutting it. They had a special talk with me and hit me with the news and I said "give me one more chance and if I don't come up to the challenge, I'll step down".

Was one of the darkest days I remember having with the band and it put me in a weird situation and feeling that I was under scrutiny for quite a while.

Funny thing was that the next year we toured with Motley Crue for months (In Rock We Trust CD tour) and their entire band, crew and management kept calling me "the voice" because they all thought my singing was great. So I made sure that Leonard and the rest heard that.

Truth be told, I am very critical about the way I sang on the first 2 A&M CDs myself, so I understood their reluctance to having me continue, but if I had not stood up for myself at that point I probably would have never found out that I could actually possess a good rock voice that would end up getting accolades from the fans, press and our peers. Weird story and weird time in my life.

Maybe it would have been a good thing had it happened. Don't know because we can't go back and try it to see what the future would have held for us with a lead singer and 4 musicians behind him. But I'm happy with the way things have been the last 2 decades.

I agree. I bet it was some infighting about "why haven't we broke yet?.... must be the lead singer/guitarist". Just looking for any excuse as to why they didn't make it big, and naturally one looks at the leader to try to assign blame. Those were some stressful times with big contracts and big expectations. Interesting that the very people that were looking for a scapegoat are the ones that are no longer around. Again, I still hold by my 'effing record companies' statement as to the ultimate root of the problem. Just a simple off hand and off the record remark from the AOR guy to band management could have easily started the ball rolling, and I'm sure the band's manager was looking to deflect any and all responsibility for the underwhelming sales of the first albums on A&M.

[bosk1]

Jay, you are almost right on the money, though I'm not sure if anyone at the record company had my band mate's ear or not. A&M really didn't know what to do with us from day one and I'm not certain they even had the smarts to make any observations about my vocals at that time.

I think, as you said, it was the thing about racing for the prize and not understanding why we had not achieved a bigger place among the others in the same vein as ourselves at that time. Frustrations, coupled with record company pressures I suppose. Having just finished a successful tour on Meanstreak and with growing popularity in the UK and the US, it was a real slap in the face to me when I was confronted at that "meeting". But that's life - you take the bad and the good and try to make something amazing out of it. I think we succeeded in doing that. I didn't know for certain, but I still can't feel too much comfort in looking back at that moment in my career - even now.

Funny thing was that I was being pressured to be more like other people at times within the band and I kept telling them that they didn't understand that the best of the best were that way because they had their own unique style and didn't look to copy anyone else. I remember another time after Van Halen broke big how the guys put on a big stink to me to play some 2 handed stuff like Eddie V, and I told them the exact same thing as I just said above. It wasn't my style and it felt completely wrong to attempt it. I needed to stay with what I did - good or bad. Thing is, when you are so concerned about making it, you lose sight about the reasons you got into it in the first place, so I understood, but at the same time I didn't buy it.

And right at that same time, after a successful headline UK tour and a great tour of Europe with Ozzie and AC/DC, a few of the guys in the band, along with management, said they didn't want to go back to Europe and just concentrate on the US. It was all crazy at that time and our heads were going all over the place, being pulled by a million emotions. That decision was something that Phll and I just couldn't understand and we were outvoted. I can't tell you just how great of a day it was when our manager, in 2003, said that he got an offer for us to play Sweden Rock. We were finally going back to Europe and the UK (Whitesnake, Gary Moore Monsters of Rock Tour) again in 2003 (probably could have done it all along, but it was kept from us).

For better, or for worse, I have mostly tried to stand my ground for being true to my own artistry, but I'm not perfect and I caved on many things, especially when it came to a few record company compromises around the In Rock We Trust and Down For the Count days. It's lost me a lot of money and fame being bull-headed, like turning down Ozzie, Whitesnake, Peter Frampton, Don Barnes, etc, but I didn't feel bad about it at that time and I still don't - no regrets (though it would have been cool to do a record with Peter).

I love what we are doing and I'm so proud we are where we are this far along in our career. And I know that while we may not have understood it all when we were in the midst of the mid 80s pressures, it turned out to be a very inspirational and meaningful thing for us, especially these last 8 years.

Not sure if you get what I mean about this because I am actually a bit uneasy talking about this part of my life in Y&T, but now that I've said it... so be it.

Exactly - you nailed it! In the mess of decisions that were made during the early days, I always believed this was one of the top worst decisions that our organization made, if not THE worst. But I held my mug and wasn't going to throw anyone under the bus in interviews, though I felt like it many times for such a small minded crazy decision. Need I remind anyone that this was at a time when cocaine was also sweeping through many rockers veins, making it even harder for the sane among us to stomach or fight back against the "out of left field" decisions being shoved down our throats at times.

 Oh yeah, the good old days . . . some times. I think I better shut it now before I go too far - as if I haven't already.

Well I certainly went down a weird road on this one, hanging out a bit of dirty laundry. Maybe I was just in need of a free group therapy session.  It's been a trying last 8 months for sure.

Anyway, regardless of all that old baggage I embarrassingly mentioned, that is way in the past, the 37 years of Y&T has by far been a massively positive experience and the gigs we've been playing, especially the last few years, have just been over the top for all of us.

It feels like I've lived out much of my career with so many of you, and that personal feeling between the fans and the band is something that a lot of bands just don't have the luck to experience - but I'm exceedingly grateful that we do.

I continue to be in a learning process here, and I'm still excited to find out what's right around the corner, and thankful that this feeling of wonder is still with me, as well as with all of my fellow band mates. We are just having the time of our lives to be able to do what we do every year.

As Hanna Kennemore is proud to say to me at the end of every conversation - On With The Show!! In fact 2011 has been officially dubbed the "On With The Show" Tour.

I think it would be interesting to hear the other side of this from Joey and Leonard! Probably never happen though!

Hey, I hope I didn't come off as slagging these guys. Not intended. Things happen over a long career that many folks can say there were reasons why at the time that seemed totally valid. I didn't say these guys were wrong for asking me to step down as the singer at that time, just that it was a slap in the face and was a difficult time to go through.

As far as the decision to not go back to Europe, I can absolutely say this happened and it makes no difference if they remember those events or not. I was there, had a clear mind, and it was absolute. I think the reason this came down was twofold - the natural want to be famous in your own backyard first, then secondarily by the irrational thoughts of some one that was influenced by their skewed emotional state of mind at the time, if you get my meaning.

There is one specific former member that would be the first to admit those were not great days in his past, but in saying so it is also way over, and we've all moved on. After all, these are remembrances of 26 years ago. Just doesn't matter anymore, other than as a simple topic of conversation. And don't worry, all of us continue to be good friends and I'm certain none of us care about this old news any more than it being a minor footnote to a long and great career.

Discussing previous decisions is not wallowing in the pain of them. I don't care anything about "what if's", and "I wish we would have..." stuff. Though it is a consistent question I have had to deal with at every interview I've done for the past 30 years - the "Why didn't you guys make it bigger?" question, that is. It really hasn't mattered to me for a long, long time and I have long reckoned with all that baggage.

All that matters to me is how I feel now and what happens next. No Regrets.

The Don Barnes thing was a simple one to explain. John Kalodner, our Geffen record company A&R person, wanted Don and I to write together and possibly have a band together. It was right after Y&T broke up in 1991. It was too soon as my heart was just not into diving back into anything like that so soon after the emotional roller coaster ride we just went through. I simply turned down the offer.

John was upset at me, as he was for turning down the multi-million dollar Frampton offer. Yes, I could have been much better off financially had I made that simple choice to say yes to Frampton when he called me, but I wasn't ready for that move at the moment in time it was offered. Peter understood my state of mind, because he also had been through a similar situation when he left Humble Pie. His manager begged me to reconsider 6 months later and i refused again. Not a lot of happy campers in that management office that day.

In retrospect, among all the collaborations, or at least potential collaborations I turned down I really do wish i had a chance at doing something with Frampton. It would have been fun and interesting. I talked to him 2 years ago and we went back about those times. Nice fellow and a lot of class and talent wrapped up in that man.

 

  

[bosk1]

for those who asked me to move this out of the archive so they could post.

[ariich]

OMG

But yeah I noticed this in the archive, wasn't sure what it was doing there. Pretty interesting read, even though I know little about Meniketti and Y&T.

[bosk1]

I noticed this in the archive, wasn't sure what it was doing there.

I wanted to have it saved somewhere in case Dave ever decides to delete the original, but I didn't really think it was something other people would care much to discuss.  I just wanted to save it before it dropped off the first page and got forgotten about, and then accidentally got deleted some day.  But then I started getting PM's about it, so... 

[King Postwhore]

Big Peter Frampton fan here and how intriguing would it have been if dave worked with Peter.

I've got to think that a lot of bands went through this crap in the 80's.  I remember how Heart and Cheap Trick were forced to work with songs that was written by songsmiths.  Areosmiths and their manager problems.  The 80's music scene was run by the record labels.

[TAC]

Thanks Bosk!

That was an interesting trip down memory lane.

I had a few thoughts while reading it.

1. As a keen observer of Y&T from 1982 through 1987 I thought they were a great band. Before IRWT, they played real rock with integrity. There was real soul and passion in their music, and a lot of that had to be attributed to Dave's vocals. He was a tremendous vocalist. I'm sorry, but there's not a better 3 album run than Earthshaker/Black Tiger/Mean Streak.

2. Sounds like they must've wanted a David Lee Roth, Vince Neil, Jon Bon Jovi type fronting the band. It had obviously nothing to do with the music.

3. Summertime Girls was a huge hit, but that album sucked. Hair Metal was exploding, but Y&T's problem was that they really weren't that type of band. Those songs at the time came out with no integrity and this great band looked like they were going through the motions. They even struggled with the look. For DFTC and even Contageous, they looked like old guys poofing their hair up. It looked fake. The only guy that managed to actually do it and get away with it was David Coverdale (I'm still not sure how that happened).

4. It's funny he mentions Leanard Haze. Even back then, I remember thinking, gee this guy looks like an asshole! I always thought that if they make an all star asshole band, he and Alec John Such would make a great rhythm section.

5. I was watching a Saxon DVD a few weeks ago. They're another band that really should've been more popular, then it hit me..They are all butt ugly!

6. Dave's vocals were NOT the problem. They were soulful and thoughtful. A lot of bands tried to play the game back then. Y&T sure did and failed miserably. They should've just kept doing what they were doing. But I'm sure the carrot was there. Look WTF Kix had to go through for some attention. No wonder why Gary Moore started doing blues albums. He actually told the music industry to go f##k itself, and ended up being more succesful than ever.

[TAC]

I've got to think that a lot of bands went through this crap in the 80's.  I remember how Heart and Cheap Trick were forced to work with songs that was written by songsmiths.  Areosmiths and their manager problems.  The 80's music scene was run by the record labels.

I think people knew that the window was not going to be open for very long. Lots of bands made fools out of themselves, like Y&T. Others like Aerosmith did very well. Not for nothing though, but Done With Mirrors is not a sell out album. It has a ton of old school Aerosmith traits all over it.
Look at Alice Cooper's Trash album with Desmond Child. A huge hit, but only after he released Constrictor and Raise Your Fist And Yell, which were also not sell outs. Sure Y&T didn't have the cache that Aerosmith and Alice had, but they were really stuck between a rock and a hard place.

That's why not going to Europe also played into their defeat. Europe wasn't spitting out bands like they were in the US.

[King Postwhore]

Done with Mirrors went gold but wasn't the bang the record company was looking for so they brought in Desmond and Jim Vallence and it went 5 times platinum.  That was the sign of the times TAC.  Look at Cheap Trick with The Doctor.  Very poor sales then Lap Of Luxury.  They wrote 5 of the 10 songs on the album and it sold very well.  The same for Heart Passionworks to the self titled album.  The Record companies took over in the mid 80's.

[TAC]

True King..Just listened to Scorps Crazy World today and it had Jim Vallance all over it. Look at Kiss' Crazy Nights as they really went for the Bon Jovi vibe.

[bosk1]

6. Dave's vocals were NOT the problem. They were soulful and thoughtful. A lot of bands tried to play the game back then. Y&T sure did and failed miserably. They should've just kept doing what they were doing. But I'm sure the carrot was there. Look WTF Kix had to go through for some attention. No wonder why Gary Moore started doing blues albums. He actually told the music industry to go f##k itself, and ended up being more succesful than ever.

That's why not going to Europe also played into their defeat. Europe wasn't spitting out bands like they were in the US.

Yeah, aside from the inner-band stuff that is mentioned above, they had a few other issues working against them, unfortunately.  I would sum it up this way:

1.  Their first label that put out their first two albums, London, did nothing for them.  It was not a rock label and had no idea how to put out a rock album and how to market a rock band.  Keep in mind that Herbie Herbert had also abandoned them during this time so that he could pursue managing Journey full-time (in the early days, he managed Journey and Yesterday & Today and toured both bands around extensively, often times together).  So they had a weak, inexperienced label and weak, inexperienced management during the Yesterday & Today and Struck Down album cycles.  And some bad luck as well, such as having the producer burn the original masters for Struck Down while he was stoned, and have the only thing left being the overprocessed, effects-laden tapes he had created.  There was no production, and album sales and airplay were almost nothing, despite the fact that the band become one of the hottest, most renowned live acts around, and bands like Van Halen, for example, were discovered and signed by record execs who had come to see Y&T's shows.

2.  They finally get out from under London and get to A&M for that 3-album run you mentioned.  This is an improvement, but not by much as they are still under a label that does not know rock bands and completely fails to deliver on its promises to promote the band.  Some of the best rock albums ever made.  Some of the most renowned live shows ever played.  And still, no album sales, no air play, etc. because no one in a position to push for any of that does so.  The band actually was selling pretty well in Europe and Japan at this time, so it really is a shame the label pulled the plug on international touring.

So, yeah, five albums later, the band is understandably frustrated and can't understand why virtually every band that has opened for them has taken off while they are still struggling to build a following.  And it's tough to right the ship once you are that far in if you haven't really broke.  They were always just a step or two a way from being huge, but always just fell short because they didn't have the label and management push they needed.

[TAC]

They should've given Doc Mcgee whatever he wanted!

But Bosk, let me say this. As an 8th or 9th grader, I was aware of Y&T. That only happens with label support. They had steady GROWTH right through 1983, and then for IRWT, they were even supported enough to release Live At The San Fransisco Civic. They played all of the notable Europoean festivals at the time and had many great opening slot opportunities. It semed like they were supported to me. Now however the blame pie split is actually management or label, it's hard to tell.

It just seemed to me that the management, label, and BAND all abandonded their principles. I mean Rock the robot or whatever the f##k that was?? C'mon. They looked foolish and they went from a band built on integrity to a band grasping at straws seemingly overnight.

[ZBomber]

Lots of bands made fools out of themselves, like Y&T. Others like Aerosmith did very well. Not for nothing though, but Done With Mirrors is not a sell out album. It has a ton of old school Aerosmith traits all over it.

I don't know anything about Y&T, but I wanted to say that "Done With Mirrors", while not the most solid album ever, is a vastly underrated Aerosmith album. 

[TAC]

Lots of bands made fools out of themselves, like Y&T. Others like Aerosmith did very well. Not for nothing though, but Done With Mirrors is not a sell out album. It has a ton of old school Aerosmith traits all over it.

I don't know anything about Y&T, but I wanted to say that "Done With Mirrors", while not the most solid album ever, is a vastly underrated Aerosmith album. 

Done With Mirrors is in my Top 3 Aerosmith albums, along with Night In The Ruts and Rocks!

[wolfking]

Y&T should have made it so much bigger.  Easily one of the most underrated rock bands ever.  Couldn't imagine the band without Dave's vocals also.  I love Y&T's early 80's output, put I really enjoy what they were doing in the late 80's and early 90's.  Ten is one of their best albums.

[TAC]

 Ten is one of their best albums.

I can't agree Wolf. Ten was the nail in the coffin. I mean that's awesome you like it, but...

[wolfking]

 Ten is one of their best albums.

I can't agree Wolf. Ten was the nail in the coffin. I mean that's awesome you like it, but...

True?  I guess I am a sucker for more melodic, AOR style rock, but I can totally see why the old school fans would dislike it.