Author Topic: Are We Truly In The End Times?  (Read 106380 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #630 on: May 27, 2012, 08:58:50 PM »
A lot of True Scotsman floating around here.

rumborak
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #631 on: May 27, 2012, 09:05:43 PM »
If it was the actual interpretation of 99% of all Christians, how come this country has waged almost continuous war since its inception?

rumborak

Well, it certainly was not because they were following the commandments of Christ...   I can only show you that many so-called "Christians" have been disobeying scripture...beyond that, you will have to draw your own conclusions.   

Obviously, since Jesus said that many would *claim* to be following him, but not following his father's commands...we have a guide in God's Word to separate actual Christians from false Christians.   

The Bible is the yard stick...if any group is not following the commands of Christ, then they cannot be (by definition) "Christian".   Therefore...according to Scripture...the Crusades were not carried out by actual Christians.  The Inquisition was not carried out by actual Christians.  And so on, and so forth....

Just to get this straight then, essentially you're the only Christian?
I almost want to edit the Wikipedia entry on the word "Christian" to say

"A Christian is a person who says he is part of a large group of like minded people, but at the same time denies almost all of them the right to be called Christian".

rumborak

No no no..

A Christian is any person who is following the example of Jesus Christ.   A person who lives his entire life by Christ's commandments.   A Christian is someone who stops living life according to his own standards, and starts living his standards according to Bible principles.   

I believe that I have found the only group on earth that is doing that.  Your mileage may vary.    I think it is already well established that I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.   I do believe that it is the only true Christian religion.   But honestly...I hate the term religion.   I despise it.    Religion is a snare and a racket...pure and simple.  Religion has been used to twist peoples minds and make people do terrible things to one another ever since it was established.

But religion is an invention of men.  WORSHIP is an invention of God...but it wasn't until men started saying, "I don't want to do things God's way...I want to worship God *MY* way."  That deviations started popping up.   Then the term "religion" became necessary in order to distinguish one from another.    IMO...(and this is not any JW teaching per-se...this part is purely my personal view)  I don't belong to a religion.   I belong to God's organized WORSHIP.   This can only be the case if you're doing things according to God's Word, and not any personal views to skew it.    God's Word says to be no part of the world, and love your enemy.   You can't love your enemy by killing him.     So even if I was in a situation where I wanted to...I'm under a command NOT to.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #632 on: May 27, 2012, 09:08:08 PM »
A lot of True Scotsman floating around here.

rumborak

I know the argument.   But there's a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE. 

The "no true Scotsman" argument has no definable parameters.  The story hinges on it being purely subjective.

In the case of Christianity, we have a very definite parameter.   If the Scotsman had a definable list of rules...then if you follow them, you're a Scotsman...if you don't you're not....there wouldn't be a problem.   But the parable of the true Scotsman has none of that.   Christianity DOES.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #633 on: May 27, 2012, 09:12:35 PM »
No no no..

A Christian is any person who is following the example of Jesus Christ.   A person who lives his entire life by Christ's commandments.   A Christian is someone who stops living life according to his own standards, and starts living his standards according to Bible principles.   

But the people who carried out the Crusades and the Inquisition were told by the Christian God that they needed to do those things.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #634 on: May 27, 2012, 09:15:00 PM »
No no no..

A Christian is any person who is following the example of Jesus Christ.   A person who lives his entire life by Christ's commandments.   A Christian is someone who stops living life according to his own standards, and starts living his standards according to Bible principles.   

But the people who carried out the Crusades and the Inquisition were told by the Christian God that they needed to do those things.

And where in the Bible does it say that??? ;)

Exactly...it doesn't.    The Bible says in effect, "these are the rules...do not deviate...not even for a voice from heaven".   Says it pretty plainly too.   
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #635 on: May 27, 2012, 09:23:51 PM »
What about Luke 14:26? Are you living up to that standard?

rumborak
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #636 on: May 27, 2012, 09:24:54 PM »
Exactly...it doesn't.    The Bible says in effect, "these are the rules...do not deviate...not even for a voice from heaven".   Says it pretty plainly too.

Just for my own understanding (seriously, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just not familiar with this 'not even for a voice from heaven' passage so I'm curious), this means that if God Himself tells a Christian to do something sinful - say, kill someone - then the good Christian should disobey God in order to follow the teachings of the Bible?
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #637 on: May 27, 2012, 09:28:03 PM »
Also, I'll take a moment to remind you, jd, that you're so good at evading questions that you neglected to fix your Genesis-interpretation problem.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #638 on: May 27, 2012, 09:30:17 PM »
Exactly...it doesn't.    The Bible says in effect, "these are the rules...do not deviate...not even for a voice from heaven".   Says it pretty plainly too.

Just for my own understanding (seriously, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just not familiar with this 'not even for a voice from heaven' passage so I'm curious), this means that if God Himself tells a Christian to do something sinful - say, kill someone - then the good Christian should disobey God in order to follow the teachings of the Bible?

It's best if I just quote the scripture: 
"However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed."  (Gal 1:8, 9)

Let's put it this way.  If I heard a voice *CLAIMING* to be God, that told me to do something against scripture...that would immediately prove to me that it *WASN'T GOD*.   If I saw with my own eyes a spirit creature claiming to be God that told me to do something against scripture, that would prove to me that it wasn't God.   
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #639 on: May 27, 2012, 09:34:07 PM »
Also, I'll take a moment to remind you, jd, that you're so good at evading questions that you neglected to fix your Genesis-interpretation problem.


It's not intentional...I just feel like I'm trying to have several conversations at once.    Remind me again...what specifically are you seeking clarification on?  (I gotta sign off in a sec, so I may not get to it til tomorrow.)
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #640 on: May 27, 2012, 09:37:27 PM »
What about Luke 14:26? Are you living up to that standard?

rumborak

If taken in context with Christ's command to love all (along with the broader definition of "hate" used in the Bible) this scripture *IS* saying that you MUST love God and Christ even more than your own life or your own family.   Yes.  I do follow that.    God comes first...family second...self last.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #641 on: May 27, 2012, 09:54:08 PM »
That's not what it says, sorry. You are "translating" to your liking.
Jesus isn't talking about priorities, he talks of "hate", "discord" and that he is the sword that drives into the family, and that nobody who doesn't hate his mother and father can't be a disciple of his. Stick to the source.
Matthew 8:21-22 is really the same thing. A true disciple of Christ doesn't even bury his father if he wants to follow Him.
And in all reality, you will proceed to ignore the passage because you don't like what it would mean to your life. And with that attitude you're no better than the Christians you derided.

That's why I always said that probably the only Christians are monks.

rumborak
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 10:14:18 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #642 on: May 27, 2012, 09:56:15 PM »
Let's put it this way.  If I heard a voice *CLAIMING* to be God, that told me to do something against scripture...that would immediately prove to me that it *WASN'T GOD*.   If I saw with my own eyes a spirit creature claiming to be God that told me to do something against scripture, that would prove to me that it wasn't God.   

Fair enough.  Thanks for clarifying.
Sincerely,
Jaffa

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #643 on: May 27, 2012, 10:19:49 PM »
That's not what it says, sorry. You are "translating" to your liking.
Jesus isn't talking about priorities, he talks of "hate", "discord" and that he is the sword that drives into the family, and that nobody who doesn't hate his mother and father can't be a disciple of his. Stick to the source.
Matthew 8:21-22 is really the same thing. A true disciple of Christ doesn't even bury his father if he wants to follow Him.
And in all reality, you will proceed to ignore the passage because you don't like what it would mean to your life. And with that attitude you're no better than the Christians you derided.

That's why I always said that probably the only Christians are monks.

rumborak

I did say from the beginning that only scriptures can translate other scriptures.     No scripture is an island.   Isolating scriptures is what gets one into trouble.

If Jesus says "love" in one place, and "hate" in another...then context *MUST* be taken into account.   There is usually only one explanation that harmonizes the two.    If there is still questions...then MORE scriptures must be looked up on the same subject and taken into account.    Sometimes even looking at the way "hate" was used in the Septuagint to make sure that it meant the same thing to the first century Christians that it does to us today.     Digging to find the meaning of the source material is not the same as "reading in" personal interpretation. 

Hate is accurate...but relative.   
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #644 on: May 28, 2012, 05:02:17 AM »
The only interpretation possible that harmonizes *the whole of Scripture* (that is, the sayings of the OT, the sayings of Jesus, and the writings of Paul...all of which come ultimately from God), is that the Law stands as a fulfilled contract.   Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law. 
This is a personal interpretation, as is your opinion that it all comes ultimately from God.

That's what I meant when I said that ALL interpretation is personal interpretation.

The fact is that there is no harmonization of "the whole of Scripture" without taking egregious liberties with the text (as you have done with your "Genesis isn't about 7 24-hour days" supposition) or linking multiple passages which have nothing to do with each other (which you also did in that example).
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #645 on: May 28, 2012, 07:47:08 AM »
I did say from the beginning that only scriptures can translate other scriptures.     No scripture is an island.   Isolating scriptures is what gets one into trouble.

If Jesus says "love" in one place, and "hate" in another...then context *MUST* be taken into account.   There is usually only one explanation that harmonizes the two.    If there is still questions...then MORE scriptures must be looked up on the same subject and taken into account.    Sometimes even looking at the way "hate" was used in the Septuagint to make sure that it meant the same thing to the first century Christians that it does to us today.     Digging to find the meaning of the source material is not the same as "reading in" personal interpretation. 

Hate is accurate...but relative.

Well, if we're talking context, let's consider the context.

Quote
When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”
16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’
18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’
21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’
22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’
23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

and

Quote
Now when Jesus saw a crowd around him, he gave orders to go over to the other side. 19  And a scribe came up and said to him, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.” 21 Another of the disciples said to him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.” 22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

The context is pretty unambiguous. Following Jesus isn't a part-time job, something you design around your other daily activities.

Also:

Quote
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


There is no room for your type of harmonization. Reality is that following Jesus takes far more than any regular person would ever be willing to commit these days, except monks. You said that Christians have deviated from the correct following of Jesus after the first century. I would agree; they used to live in extreme poverty and seclusion from others and dedicated their whole lives to Jesus. That's the yardstick.

rumborak
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #646 on: May 28, 2012, 08:23:12 AM »

The context is pretty unambiguous. Following Jesus isn't a part-time job, something you design around your other daily activities.

Also:

Quote
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


There is no room for your type of harmonization. Reality is that following Jesus takes far more than any regular person would ever be willing to commit these days, except monks. You said that Christians have deviated from the correct following of Jesus after the first century. I would agree; they used to live in extreme poverty and seclusion from others and dedicated their whole lives to Jesus. That's the yardstick.

rumborak

Actually you are very nearly exactly on target.    Yes...it does require a level of commitment that most people would not be willing to commit to these days....but it is that important. 

But your comments about *extreme* poverty and seclusion are not right.   Jesus commanded his disciples to preach and teach and make more disciples.  He said they would preach to the entire earth.    So that is NOT seclusion.    And the scriptures preach balance about money.    "Money is the root of all evil" is quite likely the single most MISquoted scripture in the entire Bible.   It says "...the *LOVE* of money is the root of all evil..."   Also, just a single chapter earlier in that same letter (1 Timothy) God's Word says that "if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."   So obviously, there is a balance.  We have to provide for our household, but we cannot focus on these thing to the exclusion of spiritual priorities.  God *must* take priority over all things...and it is a 24/7 lifestyle.  Not just on Sundays.

It's sortof like how The Bible states that a little wine is good for the stomach, and wine is a gift from God...but then says drunkards will not inherit God's Kingdom.   Some take one scripture as an excuse to get drunk, others use the other scripture as an excuse for prohibition for Christians.   Both are wrong.      You can't separate the two.    The message from the whole of scripture is that alcohol *in moderation* is a gift from God. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #647 on: May 28, 2012, 08:28:26 AM »
So, you're basing the justification of your lifestyle on the fact that the scripture doesn't use the word "NOT" as an emphasis?

I'm not here to "convince" you of anything, because frankly the point I'm making would mean that barely anybody goes to heaven. I would just hope that at this point you realize you're amalgamating passages together to your liking. Your current, wealthy way of life has nothing to do with the lifestyle of the disciples or 1st century Christians. The passages I quoted make clear that Jesus had very high standards to membership. It's totally your personal interpretation to relegate that to mere semantics and thus arrive at the conclusion that you are within Jesus' parameters.

I mean, to spell it out directly, Jesus scolded a guy for wanting to bury his father before becoming a disciple. Do you really think Jesus would approve of you as a member, sitting in an air-conned room posting on a DTF message board?

rumborak
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #648 on: May 28, 2012, 08:33:43 AM »
So, you're basing the justification of your lifestyle on the fact that the scripture doesn't use the word "NOT" as an emphasis?

I'm not here to "convince" you of anything, because frankly the point I'm making would mean that barely anybody goes to heaven. I would just hope that at this point you realize you're amalgamating passages together to your liking. Your current, wealthy way of life has nothing to do with the lifestyle of the disciples or 1st century Christians. The passages I quoted make clear that Jesus had very high standards to membership. It's totally your personal interpretation to relegate that to mere semantics and thus arrive at the conclusion that you are within Jesus' parameters.

rumborak

I'm not wealthy.  I'm just pointing out that your statement that all first century Christians is inaccurate.

"Give orders to those who are rich in the present system of things not to be high-minded, and to rest their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God, who furnishes us all things richly for our enjoyment..."  (1 Tim 6:17)

This was not an open letter to the public...it was addressed to Timothy as council for him to give to *the congregations*...those who were already Christians.   So the whole of scripture is balanced about money. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #649 on: May 28, 2012, 08:36:59 AM »
Dude, you live in one of the richest countries of the world, posting at a computer in an air-conditioned room. You are wealthy. It's probably also a safe assumption that you own a car, and maybe even a house.

EDIT: Matthew 19:

Quote
All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

Interesting sections bolded.

rumborak
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 08:45:36 AM by rumborak »
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #650 on: May 28, 2012, 12:14:12 PM »
But I feel the need to repeat.  You can't take scriptures in seclusion.    Obviously, when you look at 1 Tim, there *were* rich Christians. 

See my comment two posts up about the scriptural counsel on alcohol.    I'm not denying anything Jesus said.   

As a matter of fact, let's go back to the alcohol illustration for a moment.    So wine is a gift from God, and is good for the stomach.   Is that a commandment *TO* drink?   If someone is an alcoholic, do they have to drink to be a Christian?   Of course not.   OTOH...it would also be un-Christian to take the scriptures condemning drunkenness to condemn others drinking just because it doesn't match up with YOUR ideal.    BUT...if someone had a problem with alcohol (say they could not take a drink without having more and getting drunk) then Jesus counsel to "pluck out your eye" would apply.   No matter how much you love something, if it's causing you to stumble, you need to tear it out and throw it away from you.    Everyone is free to drink.  But if you can't drink without getting drunk...you *MUST* abstain.  It means your eternal life.

This illustrates the balance of the *whole of Scripture*.   Jesus told *a man* to sell all he had and be his follower.   He refused because *HE* was too attached to his money.   Other scriptures say *very factually* that Jesus could read people's hearts, and knew what their problems were before they even approached him...therefore (based on scripture...not personal opinion) he must have known that this young man had an issue with money, and was giving him the opportunity to "pluck it out" and throw it away from him.    He refused, and he missed out.   The other apostles had sacrificed everything voluntarily and were blessed because they did so.   But NOT EVERY CHRISTIAN DID.    The counsel to the congregations was "*IF* you are rich, don't trust in it, don't love it, don't be snooty because of it...put your trust in God first and foremost because your money can disappear any time."  (paraphrasing)   

It is the only possible conclusion that harmonizes *the whole of scripture*...
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #651 on: May 28, 2012, 12:26:35 PM »
And I'm not going to get into how much I'm worth.   People in third world countries don't have the system set up that we do.   I'd be willing to bet that if you took myself, and someone from a third world country...had us both sell everything we own...he would be worth more than I would.   And if he was capable of going into deep debt to keep his family alive and have a couple of creature comforts...he would.   

And for the record, I'm not downplaying the fact that I have access to more than he does...but that doesn't make me wealthy. 
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #652 on: May 28, 2012, 12:35:29 PM »
Lol, I'm sorry, but you are desperately downplaying the fact that already for modern standards you are doing vastly better than the majority of the world's population, and for Jesus' standards you are as rich as a king. You are making an overstretched argument that somehow one must take those completely unambiguous passages "into context", where all you are trying to achieve is not have to take the passages at face value.
Believe what you will, but at this point it's blatantly clear that you interpret the Bible to justify your status quo, just like everybody else does.

rumborak
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #653 on: May 28, 2012, 01:08:49 PM »
jamminfellow, it's fine to interpret the Bible as it suits your needs, because everybody on the planet does that. I think rumby would let up, however, if you stopped acting like you were God's gift to theology and the only person who truly understands the Bible.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #654 on: May 28, 2012, 01:20:04 PM »

The context is pretty unambiguous. Following Jesus isn't a part-time job, something you design around your other daily activities.

Also:

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Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”


There is no room for your type of harmonization. Reality is that following Jesus takes far more than any regular person would ever be willing to commit these days, except monks. You said that Christians have deviated from the correct following of Jesus after the first century. I would agree; they used to live in extreme poverty and seclusion from others and dedicated their whole lives to Jesus. That's the yardstick.

rumborak

Actually you are very nearly exactly on target.    Yes...it does require a level of commitment that most people would not be willing to commit to these days....but it is that important. 

But your comments about *extreme* poverty and seclusion are not right.   Jesus commanded his disciples to preach and teach and make more disciples.  He said they would preach to the entire earth.    So that is NOT seclusion.    And the scriptures preach balance about money.    "Money is the root of all evil" is quite likely the single most MISquoted scripture in the entire Bible.   It says "...the *LOVE* of money is the root of all evil..."   Also, just a single chapter earlier in that same letter (1 Timothy) God's Word says that "if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith."   So obviously, there is a balance.  We have to provide for our household, but we cannot focus on these thing to the exclusion of spiritual priorities.  God *must* take priority over all things...and it is a 24/7 lifestyle.  Not just on Sundays.

It's sortof like how The Bible states that a little wine is good for the stomach, and wine is a gift from God...but then says drunkards will not inherit God's Kingdom.   Some take one scripture as an excuse to get drunk, others use the other scripture as an excuse for prohibition for Christians.   Both are wrong.      You can't separate the two.    The message from the whole of scripture is that alcohol *in moderation* is a gift from God.

I understand what your saying. Basically it's take what you need and give what you don't need to those that need what you don't need. Living a simple life, like a farmer growing crops for your household, and also for your people. Their is a reason why, us Native Americans have accepted and respected Jesus and his teachings. I also do know that being a drunk doesn't do anything but destroy your life and others, being a lazy bum thinking about oneself rather than the needs of others.

Also, Nobody will want to live the life as described in the bible, it's a hard lifestyle but its simple and very rewarding.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #655 on: May 28, 2012, 01:25:56 PM »
And I'm not going to get into how much I'm worth.   People in third world countries don't have the system set up that we do.   I'd be willing to bet that if you took myself, and someone from a third world country...had us both sell everything we own...he would be worth more than I would.   And if he was capable of going into deep debt to keep his family alive and have a couple of creature comforts...he would.   

And for the record, I'm not downplaying the fact that I have access to more than he does...but that doesn't make me wealthy.

So if you think about it. People from third world countries are more closer to God. One reason,being they have no richess.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #656 on: May 28, 2012, 01:33:36 PM »
Well, that's what the whole "First will be last, last will be first" thing is about.
As Acts 5 shows also, keeping money to yourself and not sharing it is frowned upon by God.

rumborak
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #657 on: May 28, 2012, 08:10:33 PM »
I agree with both of the above posts.   

Seriously, I have 4 other people (two of which are disabled) that I am required by scripture to take care of.    The other 2 are older children that are on their way out. 

There is nothing I am looking forward to more, than downsizing in the near future so that I can focus more on preaching and teaching others.  In the meantime, I spend every spare moment I can trying to do the work that Jesus and the apostles did.   

I do not think I am the only person who understands the Bible.  I think *anyone* can understand the Bible if they have the right attitude.    Theology's approach to religion is, "You could never understand the Bible.  You need a college education to understand it.  You should never try to understand it yourself.  We're the educated ones.  You just do what we tell you to and you'll be fine."   

What I say is, "Don't let ANYONE ever tell you that you can't understand the Bible.  ANYONE can understand the Bible.  But it does require a humble state of mind.  You have to be willing to let God speak for himself instead of listening to men.    You have to be looking for the message with the heart attitude that The Bible says you must have."     

Don't listen to me...listen to the Bible.   
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #658 on: May 28, 2012, 08:12:46 PM »
Also...I'm not perfect.   Right now I'm tired.   One of my many imperfections is that I probably come across more heavy handed in type than I would in person.   But you'd have to F2F with me to see what I'm talking about.

I was hoping the new avatar would help.   :xbones
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #659 on: May 28, 2012, 08:18:56 PM »
Seriously, I have 4 other people (two of which are disabled) that I am required by scripture to take care of.    The other 2 are older children that are on their way out. 

This is all awesome, and you seem to be a genuinely upright person. All the more power to you. But according to those passages above, that is rather irrelevant. Jesus' requirements for following him aren't up for discussion; he is very descriptive about it.

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Don't listen to me...listen to the Bible.

Right now I would say you're the one not listening to it.

rumborak
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #660 on: May 28, 2012, 08:50:10 PM »
Seriously, I have 4 other people (two of which are disabled) that I am required by scripture to take care of.    The other 2 are older children that are on their way out. 

This is all awesome, and you seem to be a genuinely upright person. All the more power to you. But according to those passages above, that is rather irrelevant. Jesus' requirements for following him aren't up for discussion; he is very descriptive about it.

Quote
Don't listen to me...listen to the Bible.

Right now I would say you're the one not listening to it.

rumborak


You cannot ignore the scripture that says that those who do not take care of the members of their own household are worse than a person without faith.    You're treating the two scriptures as if they are incongruent...I am saying that BOTH are true and that the Bible's message is balanced.   

"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #661 on: May 28, 2012, 09:18:41 PM »
Actually, care to point out where Jesus says that one should continue to care for one's family? He talks a lot about caring for the weak and poor in general, but in this list: https://www.openbible.info/topics/taking_care_of_your_family I don't really see anything that.
The only thing I see is Matthew 15, but that is addressed to Pharisees who lived a very different lifestyle from Jesus.

To my understanding, a disciple of Jesus back in the day left his family, sold all his belongings, and wandered with Jesus from city to city, begging for food and preaching and helping people who were in need. It seems that Jesus made that kind of lifestyle a presupposition for getting to heaven.

rumborak
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 09:35:25 PM by rumborak »
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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #662 on: May 28, 2012, 09:31:53 PM »
You cannot ignore the scripture that says that those who do not take care of the members of their own household are worse than a person without faith.    You're treating the two scriptures as if they are incongruent...I am saying that BOTH are true and that the Bible's message is balanced.

... Wait, I'm confused.  I feel I've missed something.  Weren't you saying earlier that God comes first, family comes second, and self comes last?  And now you're saying that family has to come first, because family neglect is worse than faithlessness?  I don't understand how both of these things can be true.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #663 on: May 28, 2012, 09:48:03 PM »
You cannot ignore the scripture that says that those who do not take care of the members of their own household are worse than a person without faith.    You're treating the two scriptures as if they are incongruent...I am saying that BOTH are true and that the Bible's message is balanced.

... Wait, I'm confused.  I feel I've missed something.  Weren't you saying earlier that God comes first, family comes second, and self comes last?  And now you're saying that family has to come first, because family neglect is worse than faithlessness?  I don't understand how both of these things can be true.


Caring for the needs of your family is a commandment from God...therefore by taking care of your family, that is a part of putting God first.   But if a question of loyalty to God vs. loyalty to family should come into play...loyalty to God comes first.
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - https://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #664 on: May 28, 2012, 09:48:52 PM »
well put, jammin