Author Topic: Are We Truly In The End Times?  (Read 106362 times)

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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #525 on: May 20, 2012, 02:00:28 PM »
Well, this has nothing to do with "scientists". You will be at odds with almost everybody outside of religious fundamentalist circles.

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #526 on: May 20, 2012, 02:00:42 PM »
Humans are flawed. Therefore God doesn't exist. That's what it means.

I highly doubt Rumbys arguments sound anything like that.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #527 on: May 20, 2012, 02:02:43 PM »
Humans are flawed. Therefore God doesn't exist. That's what it means.

I highly doubt Rumbys arguments sound anything like that.

Yes, I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth.

I don't know how old you are, but prepare yourself for a lifetime of being at odds with facts.

rumborak

I'm used to this.   I show The Bible supports facts (and *does not* teach what theology claims it does) and scientists hate me.   I show theologists from their own book how The Bible does not teach what *they* have been saying it does, and the theologists hate me. 

It's to be expected.  ;D

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #528 on: May 20, 2012, 02:04:59 PM »
Science is not the enemy, jammindude. Scientists aren't intentional adversaries of religion, seeking to discover facts that will disprove the Bible.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #529 on: May 20, 2012, 02:06:54 PM »
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

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Offline Jaffa

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #530 on: May 20, 2012, 02:07:20 PM »
Science is not the enemy, jammindude. Scientists aren't intentional adversaries of religion, seeking to discover facts that will disprove the Bible.

In fairness, some of them actually do have that agenda.  But, not all of them. 
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #531 on: May 20, 2012, 02:09:34 PM »
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak

Maybe. In my opinion, Gen 1 is more of a theological narrative that answers "why?" questions. It's not interested in being a fact-after-fact lab manual of the creation of the universe.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #532 on: May 20, 2012, 02:09:42 PM »
Well, this has nothing to do with "scientists". You will be at odds with almost everybody outside of religious fundamentalist circles.

rumborak

Actually... fundamentalists don't really like to look into their Bible's either.   They believe what they want to believe, and they listen to men tell them what to believe instead of looking into God's Word.   They buy into theology...which is almost always wrong. 

@H

Don't know where that came from.   I've been saying all along that science is more right than theology is.   Theology is the adversary of The Bible.   And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.    Science gets more right than theology does, anyway.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #533 on: May 20, 2012, 02:10:42 PM »
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak

Maybe. In my opinion, Gen 1 is more of a theological narrative that answers "why?" questions. It's not interested in being a fact-after-fact lab manual of the creation of the universe.


 :tup

Absolutely THIS!  Thank you, H.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #534 on: May 20, 2012, 02:11:20 PM »
Science is not the enemy, jammindude. Scientists aren't intentional adversaries of religion, seeking to discover facts that will disprove the Bible.

In fairness, some of them actually do have that agenda.  But, not all of them. 

The "scientists" with that kind of agenda you can count on one hand. The vast majority just plain do their work, collect data, and form hypotheses. For most of them religion isn't even on the radar up until the point where they get harrassed or politically strong-armed by religious people who disagree with their conclusions.

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #535 on: May 20, 2012, 02:13:06 PM »
One might argue the writers of Genesis were scientists in a way that they were trying to collect their existing information and put it into a coherent story. It's just that they didn't have a lot of data to go with.

rumborak

Maybe. In my opinion, Gen 1 is more of a theological narrative that answers "why?" questions. It's not interested in being a fact-after-fact lab manual of the creation of the universe.

Well that's how we view science, but 4,000 years ago science wasn't very related to what we have now. I have a feeling that they did the best they could to explain existence, and it took the form of religious books like Genesis. Keep in mind, the idea that demons were inside us causing illness was a scientific revolution thousands of years after Genesis was written.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #536 on: May 20, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »
And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.
Again, this is not so.

You have to look at the Bible and science separately. They don't have anything to do with each other, as The Bible was written thousands of years before modern science. It wasn't until after the dark ages that we finally started making some actual progress in the fields of astronomy and biological science; The Bible was written by people who didn't understand these concepts, and God seems to have neglected to share with these prophets any concrete information about how they work.

Regardless of how much of God's truth is contained in The Bible, don't expect to find anything scientifically accurate in it.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #537 on: May 20, 2012, 02:18:02 PM »
Im not sure how one can agree that genesis is a theological narrative, and that it isnt a factual manual....with metaphors if you will....and then say a super intelligent Adam actually existed.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #538 on: May 20, 2012, 02:21:24 PM »
While I'm pretty sure that life came about through evolution, and that Gen 1 isn't a list of literal statements (and ought not to be read as such), I still scratch my head when it comes to Adam and Eve. In my mind, it's totally possible that God came down to a primate one day and gave him a soul, calling him "Adam". But it's also totally possible that Adam is a figurative character. I'm inclined to the first idea, though.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #539 on: May 20, 2012, 02:25:46 PM »
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #540 on: May 20, 2012, 02:28:45 PM »
n my mind, it's totally possible that God came down to a primate one day and gave him a soul, calling him "Adam". But it's also totally possible that Adam is a figurative character. I'm inclined to the first idea, though.
Genesis 2 says quite clearly that Adam was created "from dust"; i.e. that he was created by God and had no primate father.

If you're going to assume that Adam is an actual person, you also have to deal with a whole mess of other issues, like how Eve was created as a "helper" and came from Adam's rib.

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #541 on: May 20, 2012, 02:30:21 PM »
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Yeah. The way I try to do it is just recognize the genre of any given book/passage, and read it as such. Revelation, for instance, is apocalyptic and I take everything as a metaphor. Proverbs is a book of general wisdom that applies to everyday life, but it's not a book of history. Luke is written as a fact-for-fact account of Jesus' life. Genesis seems to be a mixture of a couple genres. So interpretation can be difficult.

I guess my "neutral" interpretation style is to take it literally unless I have good reason not to.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #542 on: May 20, 2012, 02:34:22 PM »
Genesis 2 says quite clearly that Adam was created "from dust"; i.e. that he was created by God and had no primate father.

If you're going to assume that Adam is an actual person, you also have to deal with a whole mess of other issues, like how Eve was created as a "helper" and came from Adam's rib.
I think Adam's being created from dust is consistent with evolution. I don't know if it has to be an instantaneous reaction with Adam popping out as a product. I think the statement has theological significance, mostly.

Like I said, I don't really know how to interpret Gen 2. It's one of the hardest passages to figure out, for me. It might be 100% unhistorical. Or it might be partially unhistorical. But that's okay...I think the important thing is that it is 100% theological no matter how you look at it.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #543 on: May 20, 2012, 02:35:26 PM »
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Yeah. The way I try to do it is just recognize the genre of any given book/passage, and read it as such. Revelation, for instance, is apocalyptic and I take everything as a metaphor. Proverbs is a book of general wisdom that applies to everyday life, but it's not a book of history. Luke is written as a fact-for-fact account of Jesus' life. Genesis seems to be a mixture of a couple genres. So interpretation can be difficult.

I guess my "neutral" interpretation style is to take it literally unless I have good reason not to.

I can certianly understand using different interpretations of style between books of the bible...I was more speaking of using different interpretation styles within one book.  Like saying a day doesnt mean a a literal day, but adam literally existing.  I personally dont see how you can have it both ways.  JMO
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #544 on: May 20, 2012, 02:37:10 PM »
Isnt it very difficult, as a Christian, to pick and choose wihich elements of genesis to believe as fact, and which as metaphor/story/etc?
I would think that if you were to base your spiritual life on a book, you would need it to have some consistency in how you interpret it.
Yeah. The way I try to do it is just recognize the genre of any given book/passage, and read it as such. Revelation, for instance, is apocalyptic and I take everything as a metaphor. Proverbs is a book of general wisdom that applies to everyday life, but it's not a book of history. Luke is written as a fact-for-fact account of Jesus' life. Genesis seems to be a mixture of a couple genres. So interpretation can be difficult.

I guess my "neutral" interpretation style is to take it literally unless I have good reason not to.

I can certianly understand using different interpretations of style between books of the bible...I was more speaking of using different interpretation styles within one book.  Like saying a day doesnt mean a a literal day, but adam literally existing.  I dont see how you can have it both ways.
I don't know if Genesis was written in one sitting or even by one author - so I don't think it's safe to force a single genre upon it.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #545 on: May 20, 2012, 02:40:36 PM »
And other than a small handful of points (some admittedly more glaring than others) science is MUCH more in agreement with what the Bible says.
Again, this is not so.

You have to look at the Bible and science separately. They don't have anything to do with each other, as The Bible was written thousands of years before modern science. It wasn't until after the dark ages that we finally started making some actual progress in the fields of astronomy and biological science; The Bible was written by people who didn't understand these concepts, and God seems to have neglected to share with these prophets any concrete information about how they work.

Regardless of how much of God's truth is contained in The Bible, don't expect to find anything scientifically accurate in it.

Actually...one of the things that changed my mind *was* it's scientific accuracy...
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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #546 on: May 20, 2012, 02:43:12 PM »
Cool. Show it to me. (Stay out of Genesis 1, because we've already decided that it doesn't work even allowing for days that are thousands of years long.)

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #547 on: May 20, 2012, 02:44:35 PM »
Of the top of my head, I can't think of any scientific claims that the Bible makes. Descriptions of the universe are usually highly metaphoric. Aside from "God created the universe" and "man has a soul", I don't really know what else the Bible says about modern science. Most of the Bible's truths are inaccessible to scientists anyway. How are scientists supposed to prove or disprove an individual's standing with God, for example? Empirically, how are you supposed to know, for example, whether you have forgiveness of sins?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #548 on: May 20, 2012, 02:46:59 PM »
Of the top of my head, I can't think of any scientific claims that the Bible makes.
That's what I said; The Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with science, and it would be ludicrous to look to The Bible for any scientific truths.

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #549 on: May 20, 2012, 02:54:35 PM »
Cool. Show it to me. (Stay out of Genesis 1, because we've already decided that it doesn't work even allowing for days that are thousands of years long.)

I don't mind...but isn't this just going to degrade into a "that's not what it means" or "anyone could have said that" or "that's not a stretch" etc...etc...etc???

I never said the Bible was a scientific textbook.  It never preaches science.  But where it *does* incidentally address scientific issues...it's been accurate.

At a time when everyone thought the earth was either being held up on the back of either a god, or a giant sea turtle or some such...  Job stated that God was "hanging the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).    Job could not have known this...but it is accurate.   Another example is Isaiah.   The idea of the earth being round was not a popular thought at the time...but Isaiah 40:22 speaks of the one who is "dwelling above the circle of the earth."  (and the Hebrew word here translated "circle" is "chugh" which conveys the idea of a sphere.)   

A couple of examples anyway. 
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #550 on: May 20, 2012, 02:57:55 PM »
If you want those to be scientifically accurate, and it is a stretch, you are going to have to acknowledge the many instances where the bible is 100% scientifically wrong.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #551 on: May 20, 2012, 03:20:09 PM »
Cool. Show it to me. (Stay out of Genesis 1, because we've already decided that it doesn't work even allowing for days that are thousands of years long.)

I don't mind...but isn't this just going to degrade into a "that's not what it means" or "anyone could have said that" or "that's not a stretch" etc...etc...etc???

I never said the Bible was a scientific textbook.  It never preaches science.  But where it *does* incidentally address scientific issues...it's been accurate.

At a time when everyone thought the earth was either being held up on the back of either a god, or a giant sea turtle or some such...  Job stated that God was "hanging the earth upon nothing" (Job 26:7).    Job could not have known this...but it is accurate.   Another example is Isaiah.   The idea of the earth being round was not a popular thought at the time...but Isaiah 40:22 speaks of the one who is "dwelling above the circle of the earth."  (and the Hebrew word here translated "circle" is "chugh" which conveys the idea of a sphere.)   

A couple of examples anyway.

Except there were many people, especially scholars at the time, who realized the Earth was a sphere, had sound arguments for it, and one mathematician had even accurately calculated the diameter of the Earth. Seeing as how the people who wrote the Bible were scholars, they would have to of been to know how to write, it's very reasonable to imagine they were aware of these scholarly works.

You're confusing what the common people thought at the time, with what educated people thought. THey are not the same, and the ignorance of the common people does not imply the ignorance of the educated people.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #552 on: May 20, 2012, 03:23:33 PM »
I still don't understand how the act of believing things that are known to be factually wrong makes you a person more eligible of eternal reward. What kind of God is this?
And, isn't it the same kind of logic that makes other people strap explosives around their body, in that they're doing the wrong thing for a higher cause?

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #553 on: May 20, 2012, 03:25:53 PM »
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #554 on: May 20, 2012, 03:26:44 PM »
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Statements like this aren't helping anyone or anything.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #555 on: May 20, 2012, 03:27:03 PM »
No, but Christians who are wrong about some things but still cling to the idea that they are right about everything don't paint a very good picture of Christianity. 
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #556 on: May 20, 2012, 03:27:10 PM »
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Does that make it easier for you?
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #557 on: May 20, 2012, 03:28:59 PM »
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Statements like this aren't helping anyone or anything.
Redirect this to Rumborak. It seems like he can't help but ask questions that don't have much to do with the thread. There's a small part of me that thinks he's baiting - it's possible, but nahhh, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. :)
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #558 on: May 20, 2012, 03:43:33 PM »
Christians are wrong about some things. Therefore Christianity is wrong.

Statements like this aren't helping anyone or anything.
Redirect this to Rumborak. It seems like he can't help but ask questions that don't have much to do with the thread. There's a small part of me that thinks he's baiting - it's possible, but nahhh, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. :)


When Christians claim that the Bible is unering Truth, than the fact that the Bible contains errs and unTruths is in direct opposition to that proposal.

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #559 on: May 20, 2012, 03:51:37 PM »
Are we really talking about that right now?
"All great works are prepared in the desert, including the redemption of the world. The precursors, the followers, the Master Himself, all obeyed or have to obey one and the same law. Prophets, apostles, preachers, martyrs, pioneers of knowledge, inspired artists in every art, ordinary men and the Man-God, all pay tribute to loneliness, to the life of silence, to the night." - A. G. Sertillanges