Author Topic: I think I've figured out the one thing that could make DT 11 a classic. (Read 8713 times)

Ħ · « **on:** March 07, 2011, 06:23:20 PM »

No more instrumental back-and-forth stuff. Ever since Six Degrees, and even more so on ToT, we've seen this (except for maybe Octavarium). Yeah, it was cool on The Glass Prison. It was cool in Blind Faith. But it just doesn't work very well past that. When looking back at IaW to FII (and SFAM to an extent), they did have heavy instrumental stuff, but it was so well-placed and well-written that it worked. I'm thinking Metropolis, Trial of Tears, The Mirror/Lie, New Millennium, Learning to Live...everything just felt necessary to the songs. I really hope that DT11 is along those lines. But I'm not sure who was the influence behind that or how MP's absence will affect it.

Thoughts?

antigoon · « **Reply #1 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM »

The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

darkshade · « **Reply #2 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:26:44 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM

The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

yea, and i think JP wants to do away with them, for the most part

Pirate · « **Reply #3 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:27:03 PM »

Isn't this something heavily discussed like a year ago?

Ħ · « **Reply #4 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:27:55 PM »

Quote from: darkshade on March 07, 2011, 06:26:44 PM

Quote from: antigoon on March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM
The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

yea, and i think JP wants to do away with them, for the most part

That's good news. Do you have proof?

Implode · « **Reply #5 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:47:55 PM »

I agree with this 1000‰.

DarkLord_Lalinc · « **Reply #6 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:51:22 PM »

Probably not the one thing, but definitely a deciding factor.

darkshade · « **Reply #7 on:** March 07, 2011, 06:51:55 PM »

Quote from: BrotherH on March 07, 2011, 06:27:55 PM

Quote from: darkshade on March 07, 2011, 06:26:44 PM
Quote from: antigoon on March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM
The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

yea, and i think JP wants to do away with them, for the most part
That's good news. Do you have proof?

i base what i said off that video of MP and JP discussing how a solo section in BC&SL should go, and JP didnt want to do the trade off's, because it (and i quote)

Quote

It wouldn't be the first time we do that

inoku · « **Reply #8 on:** March 07, 2011, 07:28:09 PM »

completely agree with you

if JP said that. i'm really hoping they will do it.

TheMadgician · « **Reply #9 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:04:09 PM »

I really like some of the trade off solos. But I'll agree they've grown kind of stale. It really stands out in The Glass Prison, along with the call and response vocals.

Hopefully they'll have something new and exciting this album.

dongringo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:28:34 PM »

i agree.

ricky · « **Reply #11 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:44:14 PM »

naked chicks on the cover?

ResultsMayVary · « **Reply #12 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:44:53 PM »

Quote from: darkshade on March 07, 2011, 06:51:55 PM

Quote from: BrotherH on March 07, 2011, 06:27:55 PM
Quote from: darkshade on March 07, 2011, 06:26:44 PM
Quote from: antigoon on March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM
The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

yea, and i think JP wants to do away with them, for the most part
That's good news. Do you have proof?

i base what i said off that video of MP and JP discussing how a solo section in BC&SL should go, and JP didnt want to do the trade off's, because it (and i quote)

Quote
It wouldn't be the first time we do that

I remember that exchange.

ricky · « **Reply #13 on:** March 07, 2011, 08:48:02 PM »

im surprised we haven't heard a, "make it like a song from Images or Scenes" comment yet.

although i haven't read any of the previous posts so maybe there has.,,idk

RaiseTheKnife · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:48:40 PM »

I think BrotherH makes a very astute assessment.

glaurung · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2011, 09:49:20 PM »

Quote from: ricky on March 07, 2011, 08:44:14 PM

naked chicks on the cover?

We have a winner.

pogoowner · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2011, 11:41:49 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM

The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

Aye.

wolfking · « **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:39:26 AM »

I agree also. Just lately the instrumentals section seem to divide themselves from the songs, as opposed to enhancing them more like the older days.

? · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:47:49 AM »

I'd like to hear less shredding in the songs on the next album. Maybe it's a trademark of DT but we already know they can play fast!

yorost · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2011, 06:34:55 AM »

Oh come on people, whether or not they do that kind of instrumental section will hardly make an album classic or not. Instrumental sections done poorly can detract from a song, sure, but obviously if they're done well it isn't going to wreck a song or downgrade an otherwise great album. Just because you think they haven't done it well lately doesn't mean they can't do it well on the next album. One of the main writers from all their previous albums is no longer in the band, who knows what will click for this group on this album.

Super Dude · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2011, 06:41:14 AM »

Well yeah, but on the other hand, if you hear the opening track and eleven minutes in there's a trade-off solo, aren't you gonna say, "Oh this again? $:\$ "

I know I will, and I certainly won't be alone from the looks of it.

lordxizor · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2011, 08:16:35 AM »

I'd also like them to limit the fast, wanky unison sections.

Lowdz · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2011, 10:47:30 AM »

Yeah and that Slayer need to stop doing all that shouting and playing really fast and singing about the Devil and stuff.
And what's with that Clapton guy playing really slowly? A few more unison lines and some sweep arpeggios woould make all the difference on his next album.

ariich · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2011, 11:33:59 AM »

Meh, there were only 2 of them on BC&SL, I don't consider it to be a problem whatsoever, or a bearing on the quality of the music.

j · « **Reply #24 on:** March 08, 2011, 12:33:05 PM »

While in most cases I find DT's "back and forth" soloing duels to be uninteresting, I don't think they're the problem in and of themselves. It's more a quality of writing issue IMO. I'm sure trade-off solos can be cool if they're tasteful and well put together.

-J

Ryzee · « **Reply #25 on:** March 08, 2011, 01:07:38 PM »

Call me kooky call me wacky but I really like the "dueling solos" thing that DT does. I jam all the time with my Dad who's a keyboard player (super cool, I know!) and we love trading off solos like that. It's really fun as a player and I always get a sense that John and Jordan are enjoying themselves while doing it (when seeing them live anyway) so I really have no problem with it. As long as the rhythm and riff they're playing over is cool that is.

Dublagent66 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 08, 2011, 02:12:22 PM »

I don't mind it. If it's good stuff, then fine. Doesn't need to happen on every song. Hell, not even every song needs a solo. I'm sure they'll probably mix it up. DT is good at that.

toro · « **Reply #27 on:** March 08, 2011, 02:14:06 PM »

Quote from: Pirate on March 07, 2011, 06:27:03 PM

Isn't this something heavily discussed since SC?

Fix'd

antigoon · « **Reply #28 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:02:00 PM »

Quote from: j on March 08, 2011, 12:33:05 PM

While in most cases I find DT's "back and forth" soloing duels to be uninteresting, I don't think they're the problem in and of themselves. It's more a quality of writing issue IMO. I'm sure trade-off solos can be cool if they're tasteful and well put together.

-J

This is a huge part of it as well. The tradeoffs and unisons in a song like, say, Metropolis work because they're really memorable melodically.

Quote from: Ryzee on March 08, 2011, 01:07:38 PM

Call me kooky call me wacky but I really like the "dueling solos" thing that DT does. I jam all the time with my Dad who's a keyboard player (super cool, I know!) and we love trading off solos like that. It's really fun as a player and I always get a sense that John and Jordan are enjoying themselves while doing it (when seeing them live anyway) so I really have no problem with it. As long as the rhythm and riff they're playing over is cool that is.

Just because something is fun to play doesn't mean it should be in a song.

jcmistat · « **Reply #29 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:09:19 PM »

ANTR and RoP would be a lot better without the extra soloing. It doesn't bother me any album other than BC&SL. I think we'll get a bunch of new stuff without MP. Can't wait. DT and SX releasing albums the same year? FUCK YEAH!

Ryzee · « **Reply #30 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:27:10 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on March 08, 2011, 03:02:00 PM

Quote from: j on March 08, 2011, 12:33:05 PM
While in most cases I find DT's "back and forth" soloing duels to be uninteresting, I don't think they're the problem in and of themselves. It's more a quality of writing issue IMO. I'm sure trade-off solos can be cool if they're tasteful and well put together.

-J

This is a huge part of it as well. The tradeoffs and unisons in a song like, say, Metropolis work because they're really memorable melodically.
Quote from: Ryzee on March 08, 2011, 01:07:38 PM
Call me kooky call me wacky but I really like the "dueling solos" thing that DT does. I jam all the time with my Dad who's a keyboard player (super cool, I know!) and we love trading off solos like that. It's really fun as a player and I always get a sense that John and Jordan are enjoying themselves while doing it (when seeing them live anyway) so I really have no problem with it. As long as the rhythm and riff they're playing over is cool that is.
Just because something is fun to play doesn't mean it should be in a song.

Well, that depends on your point of view. From the musician's perspective, if you are writing a song that you are going to end up performing numerous times you'd probably want to include bits that would be enjoyable for you to play. I totally understand though that what might be enjoyable for the player might not be so for the listener.

ariich · « **Reply #31 on:** March 08, 2011, 05:09:22 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on March 08, 2011, 03:02:00 PM

Quote from: j on March 08, 2011, 12:33:05 PM
While in most cases I find DT's "back and forth" soloing duels to be uninteresting, I don't think they're the problem in and of themselves. It's more a quality of writing issue IMO. I'm sure trade-off solos can be cool if they're tasteful and well put together.

-J

This is a huge part of it as well. The tradeoffs and unisons in a song like, say, Metropolis work because they're really memorable melodically.
Quote from: Ryzee on March 08, 2011, 01:07:38 PM
Call me kooky call me wacky but I really like the "dueling solos" thing that DT does. I jam all the time with my Dad who's a keyboard player (super cool, I know!) and we love trading off solos like that. It's really fun as a player and I always get a sense that John and Jordan are enjoying themselves while doing it (when seeing them live anyway) so I really have no problem with it. As long as the rhythm and riff they're playing over is cool that is.
Just because something is fun to play doesn't mean it should be in a song.

Equally it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in a song.

Aramatheis · « **Reply #32 on:** March 08, 2011, 05:28:14 PM »

Quote from: antigoon on March 07, 2011, 06:24:13 PM

The solo tradeoffs have gotten really tired, yeah.

I agree that the back and forth solos should be toned down a little, but I also think they're an integral part of any Dream Theater epic.
Dream Theater wouldn't be the band we all know and love if there wasn't at least 2 minutes of musical wankery in each song!

But I do wish that their musical style would revert back to the darker, "Awake" era style, you know? Every song on that album evoked some type of emotion in you as you listened.. it was all very poignant.

antigoon · « **Reply #33 on:** March 08, 2011, 10:41:31 PM »

Quote from: ariich on March 08, 2011, 05:09:22 PM

Quote from: antigoon on March 08, 2011, 03:02:00 PM
Quote from: j on March 08, 2011, 12:33:05 PM
While in most cases I find DT's "back and forth" soloing duels to be uninteresting, I don't think they're the problem in and of themselves. It's more a quality of writing issue IMO. I'm sure trade-off solos can be cool if they're tasteful and well put together.

-J

This is a huge part of it as well. The tradeoffs and unisons in a song like, say, Metropolis work because they're really memorable melodically.
Quote from: Ryzee on March 08, 2011, 01:07:38 PM
Call me kooky call me wacky but I really like the "dueling solos" thing that DT does. I jam all the time with my Dad who's a keyboard player (super cool, I know!) and we love trading off solos like that. It's really fun as a player and I always get a sense that John and Jordan are enjoying themselves while doing it (when seeing them live anyway) so I really have no problem with it. As long as the rhythm and riff they're playing over is cool that is.
Just because something is fun to play doesn't mean it should be in a song.

Equally it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in a song.

agreed.

JediKnight1969 · « **Reply #34 on:** March 09, 2011, 06:43:37 AM »

Quote from: ricky on March 07, 2011, 08:44:14 PM

naked chicks on the cover?

I'm in.

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Author Topic: I think I've figured out the one thing that could make DT 11 a classic. (Read 8713 times)